Disney and Universal: Two very different paths

Alektronic

Well-Known Member
Ground level one is obviously Red Brick Oven's, but did you look on the left side of the photo, the seating area on the balcony with the Starbucks umbrellas with tables and chairs or are you saying the balcony seating is also Red Brick Oven?

Maybe you should specify your comment more then, there is a big seating area in the middle of the photo, but you meant the half of a table in the left hand corner of the photo? There is seating inside of outside of Starbucks as well as all over the 2nd level of CityWalk
 

Figment2005

Well-Known Member
Okay, so let me get this straight. A Starbucks in an outdoor entertainment district is being compared to a Starbucks in the middle of a theme park? Wouldn't that comparison be better utilized once one of the two Starbucks locations are complete at DTD?
 

WDWDad13

Well-Known Member
Okay, so let me get this straight. A Starbucks in an outdoor entertainment district is being compared to a Starbucks in the middle of a theme park? Wouldn't that comparison be better utilized once one of the two Starbucks locations are complete at DTD?


You forget...Uni is better at all things than Disney (regardless) lol

*extreme sarcasm*
 

Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
Maybe you should specify your comment more then, there is a big seating area in the middle of the photo, but you meant the half of a table in the left hand corner of the photo? There is seating inside of outside of Starbucks as well as all over the 2nd level of CityWalk


Oh My! :(


jZOJtSG34sx7a.JPG


I made it clear it wasn't my photo. But my OP was wondering why City Starbucks had seating and and not WDW. I obviously underestimated members knowledge of City, I thought people could see Starbucks and their seating in the photo and that members knew Starbucks was upstairs, I did.

My Bad.
 

AMartin767

Active Member
Walt Disney World is in decline and has been since the late 90's. I have written rants in the past about how WDW was and is slowly moving away from it's core, its very soul. Please pardon the cliché but that soul is “Magic”. This erosion has been slowly and steadily moving away from that most crucial center the “Magic” – the theme parks themselves.


Let's review what our dear parks once had but alas, are no longer there (Thanks to DoctorDisney.com for assisting with building this list)


Magic Kingdom:


20,000 Leagues Under the Sea

Davy Crockett's Explorer Canoes

If you Had Wings (and Dreamflight)

Mickey Mouse Revue

Mike Fink Keel Boats

Mission to Mars

Mr. Toad's Wild Ride

Skyway

Snow White's Scary Adventures

Swan Boats

The Timekeeper

Exhibition Hall

Main Street Cinema

Penny Arcade

The Diamond Horseshoe


Discovery Island

Pleasure Island


Epcot:


The Original Communicore

The Original Journey Into Your Imagination

The Original Living Seas Pavillion

Wonders of Life Pavillion

Body Wars

The Image Works

Horizons

World of Motion

Kitchen Kabaret

Food Rocks

The Original El Rio Del Tiempo

Norway Viking Ship

Omnibus

Odyssey Restaurant


Hollywood Studios:

Superstar Television

Monster Sound Show

Sounds Dangerous!


Animal Kingdom:


Very little lost but not much to lose.



Now, I don't know about you but this list makes my heart sink in a very profound way. If you go through the list slowly and really think about the existence of each item, you will slowly come to the realization that almost all of these missing items had something in common – A sense of place and time that was kinetic and simple, some might use the word, charming. Not flashy, not fast, not high action.


I believe Walt Disney World's “magic” comes from suspending disbelief. It's about bringing you physically, mentally and emotionally to an almost surreal place for a period of time. It's about accepting that there are real ghosts in that mansion. It's about believing bears and birds can sing you a song. It's about the notion that the real magic in life is in the little moments, the ones that are profound in a way that you can't put a label on. like when a seal nods in response to a little girl nodding her head through the glass in an underwater city or The Mona Lisa is ready to chide Davinci for his distraction or Figment imagines himself doing so many things with his life. Peering through a porthole at a fantastic world, under real water, at mermaids. Discovering you are good at painting digitally. Peering at an old movie, showing a little mouse on a steamboat and breaking into a big smile knowing it all... IT ALL.. started with that simple, kinetic... charming little film and so glad it is just here... playing all the time as a monument to that premise.


Nostalgia right? Not necessarily... follow me on this. Right now, there is a small kid climbing into a boat and getting ready for the ride of his life down a river with swashbuckling pirates. Right now, there is a little girl dreaming of her future because of the inspiration gained from her ride through Spaceship Earth. Right now, a little kid is imagining himself standing in Italy and finding from that experience to learn more about the world. The part of Disney World that now fails us is that same little girl and boy will never experience those tiny moments, those quintessential moments that no longer exist. Those moments that are now gone and these would not be nostalgia for them, not at all. They would all be brand new moments. There are many adults who have never experienced the lists above who would experience these as all new moments even now. I am fortunate enough to be someone who did experience all of these great lost moments. A fortune that brings a curse with it. The curse of knowing what beautiful moments have been lost. This is what makes Disney World “magic”. This is where the money should go, into fostering the imaginations of those to take simple... not flashy, not fast, not high action moments that mean so much in life and paint them onto the canvas of attractions for all to experience and hold on to. Those experiences must be kept intact and fostered with updates and improvements, not replaced.


Some say that you cannot keep all attractions forever, it's just not practical. I argue that from a space/land standpoint, that is nonsense. New attractions do not have to come at the expense of old ones. I believe you must upgrade and refresh attractions to keep them current and timely. That does not automatically mean replacement or removal. I argue that nearly every experience listed above is an attraction that would still work to this day in the parks. Sure, some refinement and upgrades would be needed but those attractions would still deliver and still provide those moments of “magic” that are so desperately needed back in the parks. Disney is focused on money as #1 right? I think we all agree on that. In fact, I think we all agree that this isn't an issue. I don't begrudge them for wanting to make more and more money after all, they are a business. The trick is, how do you do it better than anyone else? In simple, thoughtful, charming moments.


“Do a good job. You don't have to worry about the money; it will take care of itself. Just do your best work – then try to trump it.”

"I don't want the public to see the world they live in while they're in the Park (Disneyland). I want to feel they're in another world."


"Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money."


"It has that thing - the imagination, and the feeling of happy excitement- I knew when I was a kid."

"Why do we have to grow up? I know more adults who have the children's approach to life. They're people who don't give a hang what the Joneses do. You see them at Disneyland every time you go there. They are not afraid to be delighted with simple pleasures, and they have a degree of contentment with what life has brought - sometimes it isn't much, either."


- Quotes from Walt Disney
 
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Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Pretty much. The kerbs and paving were a lot stronger than first thought, costing too much to remove fully.
You probably are correct, but, I can't help but thinking that they never intended to remove the curbs and that all they were doing was making the handicapped accessibility easier. I stated this before that it would not have made an sense at all to take out the curbs. They would have had to do one of two things. They would have had to raise the street levels to the entrance of the stores or lower the stores to match the street level. The second would have involved physically lowering the foundations of the whole street so not really a consideration. The first would have been possible but it would have involved raising the street about 6 inches completely. You cannot have a sidewalk that is built on a slant to go from the entrance level to the street level. The added weight to raise it would be something the utiladors might not have been engineered to handle.

Since I am not aware of any published plan to remove all the curbs, just rumor, I am going to stick with my theory. If I am wrong then we can truthfully say that they were total idiots and that failure was not only an option, it was a forgone conclusion.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Walt Disney World is in decline and has been since the late 90's. I have written rants in the past about how WDW was and is slowly moving away from it's core, its very soul. Please pardon the cliché but that soul is “Magic”. This erosion has been slowly and steadily moving away from that most crucial center the “Magic” – the theme parks themselves.


Let's review what our dear parks once had but alas, are no longer there (Thanks to DoctorDisney.com for assisting with building this list)


Magic Kingdom:


20,000 Leagues Under the Sea

Davy Crockett's Explorer Canoes

If you Had Wings (and Dreamflight)

Mickey Mouse Revue

Mike Fink Keel Boats

Mission to Mars

Mr. Toad's Wild Ride

Skyway

Snow White's Scary Adventures

Swan Boats

The Timekeeper

Exhibition Hall

Main Street Cinema

Penny Arcade

The Diamond Horseshoe


Discovery Island

Pleasure Island


Epcot:


The Original Communicore

The Original Journey Into Your Imagination

The Original Living Seas Pavillion

Wonders of Life Pavillion

Body Wars

The Image Works

Horizons

World of Motion

Kitchen Kabaret

Food Rocks

The Original El Rio Del Tiempo

Norway Viking Ship

Omnibus

Odyssey Restaurant


Hollywood Studios:

Superstar Television

Monster Sound Show

Sounds Dangerous!


Animal Kingdom:


Very little lost but not much to lose.



Now, I don't know about you but this list makes my heart sink in a very profound way. If you go through the list slowly and really think about the existence of each item, you will slowly come to the realization that almost all of these missing items had something in common – A sense of place and time that was kinetic and simple, some might use the word, charming. Not flashy, not fast, not high action.


I believe Walt Disney World's “magic” comes from suspending disbelief. It's about bringing you physically, mentally and emotionally to an almost surreal place for a period of time. It's about accepting that there are real ghosts in that mansion. It's about believing bears and birds can sing you a song. It's about the notion that the real magic in life is in the little moments, the ones that are profound in a way that you can't put a label on. like when a seal nods in response to a little girl nodding her head through the glass in an underwater city or The Mona Lisa is ready to chide Davinci for his distraction or Figment imagines himself doing so many things with his life. Peering through a porthole at a fantastic world, under real water, at mermaids. Discovering you are good at painting digitally. Peering at an old movie, showing a little mouse on a steamboat and breaking into a big smile knowing it all... IT ALL.. started with that simple, kinetic... charming little film and so glad it is just here... playing all the time as a monument to that premise.


Nostalgia right? Not necessarily... follow me on this. Right now, there is a small kid climbing into a boat and getting ready for the ride of his life down a river with swashbuckling pirates. Right now, there is a little girl dreaming of her future because of the inspiration gained from her ride through Spaceship Earth. Right now, a little kid is imagining himself standing in Italy and finding from that experience to learn more about the world. The part of Disney World that now fails us is that same little girl and boy will never experience those tiny moments, those quintessential moments that no longer exist. Those moments that are now gone and these would not be nostalgia for them, not at all. They would all be brand new moments. There are many adults who have never experienced the lists above who would experience these as all new moments even now. I am fortunate enough to be someone who did experience all of these great lost moments. A fortune that brings a curse with it. The curse of knowing what beautiful moments have been lost. This is what makes Disney World “magic”. This is where the money should go, into fostering the imaginations of those to take simple... not flashy, not fast, not high action moments that mean so much in life and paint them onto the canvas of attractions for all to experience and hold on to. Those experiences must be kept intact and fostered with updates and improvements, not replaced.


Some say that you cannot keep all attractions forever, it's just not practical. I argue that from a space/land standpoint, that is nonsense. New attractions do not have to come at the expense of old ones. I believe you must upgrade and refresh attractions to keep them current and timely. That does not automatically mean replacement or removal. I argue that nearly every experience listed above is an attraction that would still work to this day in the parks. Sure, some refinement and upgrades would be needed but those attractions would still deliver and still provide those moments of “magic” that are so desperately needed back in the parks. Disney is focused on money as #1 right? I think we all agree on that. In fact, I think we all agree that this isn't an issue. I don't begrudge them for wanting to make more and more money after all, they are a business. The trick is, how do you do it better than anyone else? In simple, thoughtful, charming moments.


“Do a good job. You don't have to worry about the money; it will take care of itself. Just do your best work – then try to trump it.”

"I don't want the public to see the world they live in while they're in the Park (Disneyland). I want to feel they're in another world."


"Disneyland is a work of love. We didn't go into Disneyland just with the idea of making money."


"It has that thing - the imagination, and the feeling of happy excitement- I knew when I was a kid."

"Why do we have to grow up? I know more adults who have the children's approach to life. They're people who don't give a hang what the Joneses do. You see them at Disneyland every time you go there. They are not afraid to be delighted with simple pleasures, and they have a degree of contentment with what life has brought - sometimes it isn't much, either."


- Quotes from Walt Disney
According to Wikipedia there have been 35 attractions at Universal Florida closed or retired since it's opening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Former_Universal_Studios_Florida_Attractions

If we are comparing WDW to Universal in this thread and criticizing WDW for closing attractions the same criticism should apply to Universal. In most cases Universal has closed rides to be replaced with newer ones, but they have also been around for half as long. Other than EPCOT the majority of major closures at WDW were also to make room for new attractions. It's the way the business works. You can't just keep building new rides and attractions without ever closing older, less popular ones.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
According to Wikipedia there have been 35 attractions at Universal Florida closed or retired since it's opening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Former_Universal_Studios_Florida_Attractions

If we are comparing WDW to Universal in this thread and criticizing WDW for closing attractions the same criticism should apply to Universal. In most cases Universal has closed rides to be replaced with newer ones, but they have also been around for half as long. Other than EPCOT the majority of major closures at WDW were also to make room for new attractions. It's the way the business works. You can't just keep building new rides and attractions without ever closing older, less popular ones.

But the focus from wdw is really for young kids. They haven't done much for adults at all. Sure there are some grown ups that like meet and greets but im not one of them. There was a time when I wanted to move to Orlando and spend every night in MK and Epcot. That is not the case anymore, in fact I am ok with going once every few years. Disney ended up losing my money for sure.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
But the focus from wdw is really for young kids. They haven't done much for adults at all. Sure there are some grown ups that like meet and greets but im not one of them. There was a time when I wanted to move to Orlando and spend every night in MK and Epcot. That is not the case anymore, in fact I am ok with going once every few years. Disney ended up losing my money for sure.
I don't disagree with you. The current state of EPCOT makes me sad. I miss PI. I also miss being young enough to really enjoy PI;).
 

Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
Okay, so let me get this straight. A Starbucks in an outdoor entertainment district is being compared to a Starbucks in the middle of a theme park? Wouldn't that comparison be better utilized once one of the two Starbucks locations are complete at DTD?

I wonder why it was different for WDW. DL has seating in its parks for Starbucks, actually very quaint seating nooks. City has indoor outdoor. So far 2 for 2 WDW zero. It is curious.
There was plenty of room to work that into the square footage of Main Street. And Fountain View isn't a tiny footprint either. To me it is a head scratcher, it isn't like Starbucks doesn't build seating. It isn't like Disney doesn't do seating, at least for Cali parks. It is a wonder.
 
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Gabe1

Ivory Tower Squabble EST 2011. WINDMILL SURVIVOR
But the focus from wdw is really for young kids. They haven't done much for adults at all. Sure there are some grown ups that like meet and greets but im not one of them. There was a time when I wanted to move to Orlando and spend every night in MK and Epcot. That is not the case anymore, in fact I am ok with going once every few years. Disney ended up losing my money for sure.

In cold reality I believe the focus of WDW is on any adult with the cash, credit or borrowing power to churn Disney revenue. But I'll give ya FLE but unlikely Avatar will be focused on young kids.

As hard as I can take Disney to task I can't say I agree with this statement focus on young kids. Yeah they have dumbed down some attractions but the premise that goes back to 'Families Together' and that was DL & MK, but I can't say it is for young kids, way too much within DL and MK that young kids are not even tall enough to ride. The other 3 parks and DTD along with the waterparks are as much for adults, pre-teens, teens and then areas for young kids for inclusion.

The majority of restaurants that are not 3rd party are themed to adults and even some of the 3rd party venues. Most of the bowling alley is themed adult and certainly most of the places like Atlantic and Jellyrolls can't be focused on young kids. DVC are focused on adults.
 

AMartin767

Active Member
Other than EPCOT the majority of major closures at WDW were also to make room for new attractions. It's the way the business works. You can't just keep building new rides and attractions without ever closing older, less popular ones.

What reasons/evidence would you say support this statement? Not being trying to be facetious, just want to understand why you have this perspective. I have to say that "making room" is really a poor excuse in WDWs case. They have room to spare. For example, they made room for the Wonders of Life pavilion without removing anything.
 

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