Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Who said anything about “secret?” There aren’t shadowy meetings and there’s no secret handshake. We’ve seen the network work here many times - a distorted, misleading story, often an outright lie, appears on Twitter or Facebook, gets picked up by a bunch of rage-bait YouTube channels, which are then used a “source” by TV “news” outlets and national commentators, who yell it loud enough it appears in the speech of a major political figure. In the meantime, the story gets diffused through even remote social media outlets like these boards, often over and over again as it appears at each new level, giving the impression it’s a big deal. Each level relies on the previous one for the pretense of “credibility.” All it takes is a shared ideological goal, a total disregard for honesty, and a lack of serious editorial oversight.

Here we go again…

There is not “organized” anti-Disney cult…

It’s a couple of things that put them in the crosshairs

Now is some of it cheap politics and regressive backlash? Yes.

But there are other things more close to home that have stuck out.

1. Overpricing their travel products is a huge crisis still gaining steam. They also can’t fix it. Stay tuned
2. They’ve suffered from a decline in entertainment quality almost across the board. Credibility is down
3. They have 3 high profile pop culture studios in various states or disarray.
Some just have been over done…others deliberately sabotaged.
Messing with the masses comfort zones is never wise

 

[Tha Realest]

over the last 48 hours many of the people insisting there’s a coordinated, secretive “hate network” have shifted gears and started gay man-splaining. Nice job, everyone.

 

[Casper Gutman]

over the last 48 hours many of the people insisting there’s a coordinated, secretive “hate network” have shifted gears and started gay man-splaining. Nice job, everyone.

Who did this? Please point out a specific post for your claim.

Also, please stop lying about what people mean by “hate network” by using irrelevant terms like “secretive.” I explained exactly what term means and we’ve seen it operate on these boards repeatedly
.

 

[DKampy]

That’s fair

But disagree on guardians

Might have had the most heart of any marvel movie…and Completed perhaps the best 3 movie arc in MCU…except maybe Cap

Hey another movie we agree on… Guardians made my top 10 of the year in ‘23 and between theaters, renting, renting, snd streaming…I end up watching just about everything

 

[brideck]

Also, please stop lying about what people mean by “hate network” by using irrelevant terms like “secretive.” I explained exactly what term means and we’ve seen it operate on these boards repeatedly.

Additionally, I provided the name of an organization who's raison d'etre is to research and provide policy in the space of this exact phenomenon. Leading horses to water, so to speak.

 

[erasure fan1]

She “came off” as a pompous jerk because it benefitted a group of individuals with prominent platforms to have her “come off” as a pompous jerk. So they distorted what she said, edited it, removed context, added dishonest commentary, and broadcast it relentlessly. And that’s what you don’t want to acknowledge.

Nah, she comes off as smug and pompous. I've seen her in interviews not edited. You're like the white knight of anyone Disney related, you have to come to everyons rescue.

I for sure acknowledge she's not liked and people edit things to look a certain way. Welcome to every media outlet in the history of media. I make no bones about it, I'm not a fan of her. That said, I went to the theater to see captain marvel opening weekend, I've been sticking up for the film since it released because like I said. Separate the art from the artist.

To a certain extent we’re all influenced by what we read, hear, share, etc but the idea that an underground network has the ability to torpedo a movie still makes no sense to me, especially since I’ve seen them all on D+ and none have been great.

Exactly, everyone is influenced by what they hear and see. But this whole not so secret hate network stuff is crazy. Especially because they're defending movies that just weren't good. And still, no one can point to a film that didn't deserve the box office it received.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Nah, she comes off as smug and pompous. I've seen her in interviews not edited. You're like the white knight of anyone Disney related, you have to come to everyons rescue.

Hah. That's me, a perpetual white knight for Tiana's Bayou Adventure, everything EPCOT has done since the mid-90s... basically anything having to do with the American parks. And I have been for years. Nailed it.

Also, people can point to thousands of films that didn't deserve the box office they received. Posters have done it in this thread. It's REALLY, REALLY easy to do. Let's see... Rocky 3 and 4, the Police Academy series, Godzilla x Kong, Dungeons and Dragons, Fall Guy, Furiosa, American Beauty, The Thing, Rambo 2, Independence Day, Twister, Fifty Shades of Grey, The Flintstones...

 

[LittleBuford]

Instead of labeling it "bigotry", I think it's an issue of context and timing for most parents when their kids are pre-teens.

I'm a very mature adult gay man who certainly enjoys watching movies with gays and Lesbians in them, or (even better) with gay campy themes. But when my nephews were 8 and 10 years old I would not have taken them to see Strange World, as that's just too young for me to get involved in that sort of discussion or topic. If the nephews were 14 and 16, then sure, I'd take them to Strange World if they wanted to see it. But 10 or younger? Nope.

I'd imagine my younger sister, who was very supportive of my coming out experience decades ago and my only family ally for years, would feel the same way about taking her young sons to see Strange World.

It seems that Disney pushed the envelope too much for a family cartoon with Strange World. What sounds like a great movie idea to a bunch of childless gay men at brunch in Silver Lake, is likely not going to sound that great to middle class parents of young children in Savannah. Disney should stick to making their family cartoons for the parents budgeting their entertainment dollars in Savannah, instead of the gays having a second round of Mimosas in Silver Lake.

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It saddens me that you would write this and that several other forum members would like it. The existence of people like me (like us) is not some dirty secret to be kept from children, a percentage of whom are themselves gay. In a society where gay marriage is legal, there is no reason other than bigotry to treat homosexuality as something that children cannot or should not have any knowledge of.

 

[LittleBuford]

…what would you know…it’s only YOUR LIFE AND EXPERIENCES…

…you also caught some of the accusers off guard (my guess)…because they had no clue until you just said it. I bet you had the backwards bigot label until now.

He absolutely didn’t catch us off guard. We’ve been down this road many times before. It doesn’t make his statements any less saddening.

This observation is not new either, but it helps put things in perspective: there are people in this forum who agree with the sentiment that gay characters should not be featured in children’s animated movies yet have no issue whatsoever with those same movies including depictions of fratricide, kidnapping, black magic, and all manner of other scary and unsavoury things. There is something very wrong indeed when people deem the immutable characteristics of their fellow human beings a less suitable topic for children than murder and abduction.

 

[TP2000]

It saddens me that you would write this and that several other forum members would like it. The existence of people like me (like us) is not some dirty secret to be kept from children, a percentage of whom are themselves gay. In a society where gay marriage is legal, there is no reason other than bigotry to treat homosexuality as something that children cannot or should not have any knowledge of.

Having had a hand in raising two nephews as the "Cool Uncle", I mostly disagree. It's not something that should be hidden or kept from children entirely, but it's something that most folks in the mid 2020's still aren't comfortable with explaining/discussing with their under 10 year old children. Depending on the child, and more importantly the family's culture and values, it's likely best to wait until age 12 or even their early teens.

My sister says she told both her sons about me 15+ years ago when they were in their early teens. They got it and went "Ohhhh!". That was when she was comfortable discussing it, and when she best thought it was appropriate. I supported her fully.

Obviously, the LGBT fact is something that is far more accepted in some parts of American and Western European society (plus a gaggle of other Southern Hemisphere countries where Great Britain or France or Germany colonized centuries ago and imparted the Western European concept of law and rights). But in Muslim Mid East countries? In Japan, or Indonesia or Communist China? In almost all African countries except parts of South Africa? Obviously not.

Do I agree with those countries laws and cultures norms in Asia and Africa and the Middle East? Nope. Do I think they should be forced to show Strange World and other family cartoons with LGBT characters in them as a form of cultural imperialism beamed from the Silver Lake brunch crowd? Nope. It's not part of those countries culture. At least not yet. Check back in 10 or 20 years.

I'm gonna just leave it up to the individual parents. They're in charge, not me. I really don't even like kids, to be honest.

 

[LittleBuford]

Having had a hand in raising two nephews as the "Cool Uncle", I mostly disagree. It's not something that should be hidden or kept from children entirely, but it's something that most folks in the mid 2020's still aren't comfortable with explaining/discussing with their under 10 year old children. Depending on the child, and more importantly the family's culture and values, it's likely best to wait until age 12 or even their early teens.

Obviously, the LGBT fact is something that is far more accepted in some parts of American and Western European society (plus a gaggle of other Southern Hemisphere countries where Great Britain or France or Germany colonized centuries ago and imparted the Western European concept of law and rights). But in Muslim Mid East countries? In Japan, or Indonesia or Communist China? In almost all African countries except parts of South Africa? Obviously not.

Do I agree with those countries and cultures in Asia and Africa and the Middle East? Nope. Do I think they should be forced to show Strange World and other family cartoons with LGBT characters in them as a form of cultural imperialism? Nope. It's not part of their culture. At least not yet. Check back in 10 or 20 years.

I'm gonna just leave it up to the individual parents. They're in charge, not me. I really don't even like kids, to be honest.

My post had nothing to do with the choices of individual parents or with attitudes in other cultures (I’m of Middle Eastern heritage myself, so that’s a topic I’m familiar with). I was clear in framing my comments in relation to the kind of society in which you and are lucky enough to live in. And in such a society—which claims to have afforded gay people the same rights and recognition as straight people—it is absolutely nonsensical to treat the existence of homosexuality as a taboo topic.

 

[LittleBuford]

My partner and I have been together since some of our nieces and nephews were toddlers. They have no memories or knowledge of us as anything but a couple. How would the arbitrary “not below 12” cut-off point work in a case like ours? For that matter, what should my partner and I do when we’re walking hand-in-hand down a street where someone else’s child might catch sight of us?

The horse has already bolted. If society is claiming to treat us as equal to our straight counterparts, we can’t be expected to hide away in the closet again.

 

[TP2000]

And in such a society—which claims to have afforded gay people the same rights and recognition as straight people—it is absolutely nonsensical to treat the existence of homosexuality as a taboo topic.

The issue here is that parents, 90%+ of whom are straight or at least had a drunken night when they were young, are in charge of buying movie tickets to family cartoons for their kids. Obviously Strange World, and also Lightyear, caused problems because they had gay characters and/or plotlines in them.

After watching clips and reading dialogue from Elemental with the 3 second appearance of a Lesbian and her girlfriend who we can't call a Lesbian and her girlfriend any more for some bizarre reason, I won't count Elemental in that list of gay movies. It was so minor, and so brief, it was pointless and just plain pandering. Seems almost offensive to Lesbians, quite frankly.

Disney is in the business of making money, it's not a social outreach non-profit. Does Disney wanna try some big PG-13 teenage beach party movie with musical production numbers where the surfer boys area all gay and roll around in the dunes with each other? Go for it. I doubt it will make any money for Disney, but at least it won't get the parents of 8 year old's upset.

Disney animation has a special place in American society, perhaps you don't quite understand that. American parents used to hold the name Walt Disney in very high regard, and automatically knew they could take the kids to them without worrying about swear words, or sexual innuendo, or other such mature topics. Many American parents today, and even more parents overseas, find gay themes and characters unsuitable for their children under age 12-ish.

Disney should realize that at least for now, doing gay characters in family cartoons is a losing box office proposition. Something tells me they recently learned that lesson, and thus the course correct we've seen. Although the lesson wasn't learned until they vaporized hundreds of millions of dollars on a few ill-conceived family films.

 

[TP2000]

My partner and I have been together since some of our nieces and nephews were toddlers. They have no memories or knowledge of us as anything but a couple. How would the arbitrary “not below 12” cut-off point work in a case like ours?

It's not arbitrary at age 12. I'd think it depends mostly on their parent's values and culture and religion, in addition to their own innate understanding of how their child is developing and maturing. Do they live in a Manhattan apartment with a nice Lesbian couple next door, or do they live in a rural area in Missouri and only really know a few dozen people consisting of those at church and school? Some kids might be ready at age 10, some might need to wait until age 15.

But my hunch is that most middle class American parents in the 2020's would land somewhere around age 12.

 

[LittleBuford]

The issue here is that parents, 90%+ of whom are straight or at least had a drunken night when they were young, are in charge of buying movie tickets to family cartoons for their kids. Obviously Strange World, and also Lightyear, caused problems because they had gay characters and/or plotlines in them.

After watching clips and reading dialogue from Elemental with the 3 second appearance of a Lesbian and her girlfriend who we can't call a Lesbian and her girlfriend any more for some bizarre reason, I won't count Elemental in that list of gay movies. It was so minor, and so brief, it was pointless and just plain pandering. Seems almost offensive to Lesbians, quite frankly.

Disney is in the business of making money, it's not a social outreach non-profit. Does Disney wanna try some big PG-13 teenage beach party movie with musical production numbers where the surfer boys area all gay and roll around in the dunes with each other? Go for it. I doubt it will make any money for Disney, but at least it won't get the parents of 8 year old's upset.

Disney animation has a special place in American society, perhaps you don't quite understand that. American parents used to hold the name Walt Disney in very high regard, and automatically knew they could take the kids to them without worrying about swear words, or sexual innuendo, or other such mature topics. Many American parents today, and even more parents overseas, find gay themes and characters unsuitable for their children under age 12-ish.

Disney should realize that at least for now, doing gay characters in family cartoons is a losing box office proposition. Something tells me they recently learned that lesson, and thus the course correct we've seen. Although the lesson wasn't learned until they vaporized hundreds of millions of dollars on a few ill-conceived family films.


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This is a separate matter from what you stated earlier as your own opinion on the topic. You weren’t merely commenting on where society at large currently stands on the issue but expressing the view that the inclusion of gay characters in family entertainment is intrinsically inappropriate. That’s what I was responding to and found disheartening.

 

[LittleBuford]

It's not arbitrary at age 12. I'd think it depends mostly on their parent's values and culture and religion, in addition to their own innate understanding of how their child is developing and maturing. Do they live in a Manhattan apartment with a nice Lesbian couple next door, or do they live in a rural area in Missouri and only really know a few dozen people consisting of those at church and school? Some kids might be ready at age 10, some might need to wait until age 15.

But my hunch is that most middle class American parents in the 2020's would land somewhere around age 12.

That still doesn’t tell me what you and others who think like you expect my partner and me to do when living our lives in the public sphere, where any number of children might see us despite the best efforts of their parents to pretend that people like us don’t exist.

 

[TP2000]

This is a separate matter from what you stated earlier as your own opinion on the topic. You weren’t merely commenting on where society at large currently stands on the issue but expressing the view that the inclusion of gay characters in family entertainment is intrinsically inappropriate. That’s what I was responding to and found disheartening.

Oh. I don't think Disney cartoons aimed at young children should have gay characters in them at the present time. And the box office data thus far shows a lot of parents around the world feel the same way as I do. Does that help clear it up?

 

[TP2000]

That still doesn’t tell me what you and others who think like you expect my partner and me to do when living our lives in the public sphere, where any number of children might see us despite the best efforts of their parents to pretend that people like us don’t exist.

I would imagine you would have your family deal with that in their own way, based on their values and culture and religion, and let the rest of the parents who are strangers to you deal with it themselves in their own way. Who cares what they think?

But if I was running a Hollywood movie studio that needed to show a profit, I wouldn't be surprised if Strange World tanked at the box office. And when it did, I wouldn't blame the hate network of parents around the globe for that box office failure. I would blame myself and my studio execs who told me that Strange World was a good idea financially.

 

[LittleBuford]

Oh. I don't think Disney cartoons aimed at young children should have gay characters in them at the present time. And the box office data thus far shows a lot of parents around the world feel the same way as I do. Does that help clear it up?

Not really. For as long as you’ve been posting about this, you’ve framed it as something intrinsically inappropriate for children, regardless of context. You now seem to be saying something rather different.

 

[TP2000]

Not really. For as long as you’ve been posting about this, you’ve framed it as something intrinsically inappropriate for children, regardless of context. You now seem to saying something rather different.

If I've been framing it that way, it's because I am framing it within the context of American mainstream culture, the exact demographic that made Walt Disney fabulously wealthy and successful and a household name from coast to coast. I am an American. I know American culture. I know American parents via family and friends.

If you're thinking of a culture that is different than America circa 1960-2024, and many of those places are in Africa and Asia and the Middle East that outright banned Strange World from movie theaters, then that's something else.

My gut tells me that American parents in the 2020's land around the age of 12 when it comes to discussing The Gays.
But the majority of American parents don't have gay uncles showing up at Thanksgiving like Rip Taylor coming down the aisle wearing Maribou and throwing confetti. Thus, they don't automatically explain homosexuality to their young children.

That said, I do believe every American family would be better off with at least one gay uncle who showed up at Thanksgiving like this...