Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

Basil of Baker Street

Well-Known Member
I discovered it on PBS in the late 80's, and it was more than funny. It was hysterical.

I own the DVD's of all the seasons now. Sadly, absolutely none of the cast members are left. They all passed away, some at a very old age, and some far too young. It was a hilarious TV show that stands the test of time.

To this day, I still quietly say "It will ride up with wear" whenever I'm trying things on at Nordstrom. 🤣

Less often, but with equal enthusiasm, I will channel Mrs. Slocombe and say "And I am unanimous in this!". This usually happens when I am by myself in the kitchen trying a new recipe and finding surprise success. Or utter failure. It works for both.

One more random thought: About 20 years ago I chaperoned my nephews for a day at Sea World in San Diego. They had a 3D show about a haunted castle by the sea, or something dumb like that. This 3D show featured Captain Peacock in the lead role, as sort of a stuffy old English guy as only the actor who played Captain Peacock could be. The 3D show was forgettable, but it was so wonderful to see Captain Peacock again much later in life still working. I believe he passed soon after that.
I would have thought the younger female was still alive. Cant recall her name in the show. I remember a Mrs Peacock I believe. She had pink hair. I could be mistaken. It has been many years.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I would have thought the younger female was still alive. Cant recall her name in the show. I remember a Mrs Peacock I believe. She had pink hair. I could be mistaken. It has been many years.
The one with pink hair (among other colours) was Mrs. Slocombe, played by Mollie Sugden. The young one was Miss Brahms, played by Wendy Richard. Both of them have unfortunately passed away.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
I absolutely adore that you completely ignored by diatribe about smut, and instead focused in on my estimation that Searchlight only spent $15 Million on marketing for Poor Things. Bravo!

Apparently they sent the stars of the film off to several film festivals in private jets around the world in 2023. That alone, plus a modest campaign of posters and previews, would equal at least $15 Million.

I imagine the marketing budget for Poor Things was more than $15 Million, but let's just go with only $15 Million because it adds up to a tidy $50 Million with its production budget of $35 Million.



I don't disagree with you there, but.... So Searchlight, which lost over $100 Million at the box office in 2023, exists only to burn through corporate cash for Disney? For the unquantifiable monetary value of Golden Globe nominations?

It seems a great reset is in order for the entire Hollywood industry. Because this is not sustainable.

Among other things, it's also done for the people involved.

Studios will often provide "artistic" opportunity for actors, directors, etc. that they would like to keep in the family making movies for them and giving them non-commercial outlets to explore their art is one of the ways they do it.

In this sense, it's seen as a form of compensation to the creators who often, take pay cuts themselves to be involved in the making of them.

Take for instance, Keanu Reeves.

By all accounts a great human and loved by all but as an actor... well, he's good at jumping around and kicking/shooting stuff.

That said if you look him up on IMDB, you'll find a long string of familiar titles that all fall into a similar mold of action/scifi-action but then you'll also start to see titles you've probably never heard of that seem completely out in left field.

Why?

Because Keanu has always wanted to be seen as a serous actor. He's always wanted to be more than a face or someone cashing in on a franchise.

After the first Matrix, they were eager to get him into more Matrix movies and start using him to spawn other action type stuff but he wanted to make art.

So if you're a studio, what do you do?

This guy could be the launch of your next major franchise worth billions of dollars but he wants to do some project about a love story and personal growth as a super aggressive marketer who takes on a peculiar relationship with a woman who, as a project of hers is meant to give him a better appreciation of life and humanity who (spoiler) does this with guys because she herself left a high-profile business lifestyle she was riding high on before finding out she was terminally ill.

Do you just say "good day" and move on?

... Or do you make his little movie, agreeing to minimal distribution in return for a contract that ensures he'll also star in the movies you want?

Remember, this is a guy who gave away some of his back-end points on Matrix to the stunt team on the film out of respect for their work - he's really not in this stuff for the money and hasn't been for a long time, even if he's aware of his market value.

BTW, if you watch any of these other movies, it's not hard to be left with the impression that he's way better at convincingly dodging a thrown knife and killing a man with bare hands than selling a moment of emotional trauma - there's a reason you've probably never heard of most of these.

Anyway, awards may not do much for Disney's bottom line directly but they sure mean something to the likes of Emma Stone, Mark Ruffalo, Willem Dafoe and others. It stokes their egos. It makes them feel like they're doing "important work".

Also, like the actor equivalent of going back to school to get your doctorate, it can have an outsized impact on future pay because it raises their profile as an actor.

Or think of it this way: RDJ reportedly made $75 million for his role in Endgame. That was a big movie with a lot of cast. He didn't even have THAT much screen time.

Emma Stone is an A-list actor who's profile and salary have been on a sharp incline. Making a film like this just for her alone, if it can lock her into potentially high earning future projects, knowing that between ticket sales, streaming rights and other things down the road on top of potential tax savings due to financial under-performance in theaters (that famous Hollywood math) it will end up costing potentially less than her salary on the next big movie she's involved with makes this kind of project a heck of a lot easier to approve, especially if you can tie her into 2-3 more moves with it.

But you get more than Emma out of this. Watch the promotion and you'll hear Ruffalo talk about being out his comfort zone and trying something new like they pressured him into this... Listen further and he'll mention how being attached to a big franchise for years is great but it makes people start to see you as being like your character and it makes you start to feel like your character and... he's talking about being typecast.

Disney also threw him a bone so he could do a role where he didn't seem like kind of an idiot-savant as the alter ego to Hulk which makes it easier for him to get other roles in the future. It allows him to showcase his "range" and make clear he was only acting like a dopey socially awkward person in all those movies and their promotion and that he isn't actually like that.

He acts like someone pushed him into doing this but I'm sure he very much wanted this project.

Ramy Youssef has done a lot of small profile stuff but he was also on the cast of Disney's Wish. They're clearly looking to do more with him and giving him a role where he plays opposite Emma Stone and Willem Dafoe for 95% of his screen time is sure a nice little sign of respect.*

I wouldn't be shocked to find out they were trying to rope Christopher Abbott in, too.

Beyond that, you've got the production designers and costumers and others who have all gotten promotional spotlights around this little movie with their names shown and them being interviewed.

If any of these people are seen as in demand, or of potential value for the next thing they want on a Marvel move but are maybe, a little less interested in being involved in "those kind of projects", this kind of thing can be an easy way to get a foot in the door with these sort of folks who typically make far, far less than onscreen talent but who's work can have a significant impact on the perceived quality of the final product.

And of course, making movies for the "art" gives the the studio and the company that owns them cred that makes them seen as more desirable to various creatives they'd like to attract (and probably under-pay, if they can) and is as much of an ego boost for a selection of executives as it is for the creatives involved and can also be used as a way to bring in and retain producers that have a good track record but aren't really enthused about creating the hollow but highly profitable stuff studios crave.

So yeah, it's all ultimately about the money but with what they can squeeze out of a project like this, making a few movies like this a year can be a real bargain... plus, it's a roll of the dice. If the movie is nominated for best picture, it's likely to make back it's (relatively minor) cost in theatrical run due to public interest and if it actually wins, it's pretty much guaranteed to be profitable.

We're not talking tent-pole money but enough that they end up getting all that other benefit for free.

Unlike the Disney movies most people have heard of this year, they were prepared from the start to take a theatrical loss on this one and their budget for it reflects the level they decided they were okay with loosing.

Just imagine if it were that cheap to convince RDJ to get Iron Man back on the big screen.

It's basically the whole reason Mirimax existed until Harvey started wanting bigger and bigger budgets.

It's why Fox Searchlight was created and the reason that Searchlight survived the acquisition.

Anyway, this is a big part of the reality behind how these kinds of movies get made. There's a lot more to it that ranges from relations with and incentives from cities, states, and countries and establishing footholds with cheaper local labor (this one was done almost entirely on sound-stages in Budapest, of all places - including most of the "outdoor" shots**) as well as retaining valuable assets (we could be talking people, things or other resources they'd like to keep tied up) between major productions, testing work with new vendors/partners, equipment, etc. - the list really goes on and on.

If real art ends up getting made in the process, that's a byproduct and a boon for people who enjoy more interesting and thought-provoking cinema.

My feeling is, that's the result, here.

For the actors already near the top who've previously snagged one of the gold dudes, a best-case scenario a lot of times is for the movies to get great critical response but for them to not be financially successful because they were never making money that mattered to them from these to begin with and they just LOVE having stuff like this brought up in interviews for other projects: That powerful gem they were so amazing in that never got the popular attention it deserved but that they did because it felt like an important film that needed to be made and they just fell in love with the script and had to do it...

That's great for you as an actor if interviewers are reminded to bring that up while you're on your promotional junket for Avatar 3.

*yes, yes - wish failed (also, not that it matters but I didn't like it) but they're clearly looking to work more with this guy.
**again, SOUNDSTAGES in Budapest. Mostly Americans with fake British accents playing characters traversing a steampunk western Europe filmed in the capital of Hungary. They weren't on location that whole time for unique scenery and landscapes.
 
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Disney Irish

Premium Member
Among other things, it's also done for the people involved.

Studios will often provide "artistic" opportunity for actors, directors, etc. that they would like to keep in the family making movies for them and giving them non-commercial outlets to explore their art is one of the ways they do it.

In this sense, it's seen as a form of compensation to the creators who often, take pay cuts themselves to be involved in the making of them.

Take for instance, Keanu Reeves.

By all accounts a great human and loved by all but as an actor... well, he's good at jumping around and kicking/shooting stuff.

That said if you look him up on IMDB, you'll find a long string of familiar titles that all fall into a similar mold of action/scifi-action but then you'll also start to see titles you've probably never heard of that seem completely out in left field.

Why?

Because Keanu has always wanted to be seen as a serous actor. He's always wanted to be more than a face or someone cashing in on a franchise.

After the first Matrix, they were eager to get him into more Matrix movies and start using him to spawn other action type stuff but he wanted to make art.

So if you're a studio, what do you do?

This guy could be the launch of your next major franchise worth billions of dollars but he wants to do some project about a love story and personal growth as a super aggressive marketer who takes on a peculiar relationship with a woman who, as a project of hers is meant to give him a better appreciation of life and humanity who (spoiler) does this with guys because she herself left a high-profile business lifestyle she was riding high on before finding out she was terminally ill.

Do you just say "good day" and move on?

... Or do you agree to make his little movie in return for a contract that ensures he'll also make the movies you want?

Remember, this is a guy who gave away some of his back-end points on Matrix to the stunt team on the film out of respect for their work - he's really not in this stuff for the money and hasn't been for a long time, even if he's aware of his market value.

BTW, if you watch any of these other movies, it's not hard to be left with the impression that he's way better at convincingly dodging a thrown knife and killing a man with bare hands than selling a moment of emotional trauma - there's a reason you've probably never heard of most of these.

Awards may not do much for Disney but they sure mean something to the likes of Emma Stone, Mark Ruffalo, Willem Dafoe and others. It stokes their egos. It makes them feel like they're doing "important work".

Also, like the actor equivalent of going back to school to get your doctorate, it can have an outsized impact on future pay because it raises their profile as an actor.

Think of it this way: RDJ reportedly made $75 million for his role in Endgame. That was a big movie with a lot of cast. He didn't even have THAT much screen time.

Emma Stone is an A-list actor who's profile and salary have been on a sharp incline. Making a film like this just for her alone, if it can lock her into potentially high earning future projects, knowing that between ticket sales, streaming rights and other things down the road on top of potential tax savings due to financial under-performance in theaters (that famous Hollywood math) it will end up costing potentially less than her salary on the next big movie she's involved with makes this kind of project a heck of a lot easier to approve, especially if you can tie her into 2-3 more moves with it.

But you get more than Emma out of this. Watch the promotion and you'll hear Ruffalo talk about being out his comfort zone and trying something new like they pressured him into this... Listen further and he'll mention how being attached to a big franchise for years is great but it makes people start to see you as being like your character and it makes you start to feel like your character and... he's talking about being typecast.

Disney also threw him a bone so he could do a role where he didn't seem like kind of an idiot-savant as the alter ego to Hulk which makes it easier for him to get other roles in the future. It allows him to showcase his "range".

He acts like someone pushed him into doing this but I'm sure he very much wanted this project.

Ramy Youssef has done a lot of small profile stuff but he was also on the cast of Disney's Wish. They're clearly looking to make a bigger name out of him.*

I wouldn't be shocked to find out they were trying to rope Christopher Abbott in, too.

Beyond that, you've got the production designers and costumers and others who have all gotten promotional spotlights around this little movie with their names shown and them being interviewed.

If any of these people are seen as in demand, or of potential value for the next thing they want on a Marvel move but are maybe, a little less interested in being involved in "those kind of projects", this kind of thing can be an easy way to get a foot in the door with these sort of folks who typically make far, far less than onscreen talent but who's work can have a significant impact on the perceived quality of the final product.

And of course, making movies for the "art" gives the the studio and the company that owns them cred and is as much of an ego boost for a selection of executives as it is for the creatives involved and can also be used as a way to attract producers that have a good track record but aren't really enthused about creating the hollow but highly profitable stuff studios crave.

So yeah, it's all ultimately about the money but with what they can squeeze out of a project like this, making a few movies like this a year can be a real bargain... plus, it's a roll of the dice. If the movie is nominated for best picture, it's likely to make back it's cost in theatrical run due to public interest and if it actually wins, it's pretty much guaranteed to be profitable.

We're not talking tent-pole money but enough that they end up getting all that other benefit for free.

So yeah, unlike the Disney movies most people have heard of this year, they were prepared from the start to take a theatrical loss on this one and their budget for it reflects the level they decided they were okay with loosing.

Just imagine if it were that cheap to get Iron Man back on the big screen.

Anyway, this a is a big part of the reality behind how these kinds of movies get made. It's basically the whole reason Mirimax existed until Harvey started wanting bigger and bigger budgets.

It's why Fox Searchlight was created and the reason that Searchlight survived the acquisition.

For the actors already near the top who've previously snagged one of the gold dudes, a best-case scenario a lot of times is for the movies to get great critical response but for them to not be financially successful because they just LOVE having stuff like this brought up in interviews for other projects: That powerful gem they were so amazing in that never got the popular attention it deserved but that they did because it felt like an important film that needed to be made and they just fell in love with the script and had to do it...

That's great for you as an actor if interviewers are reminded to bring that up while on your promotional tour for Avatar 3.

*yes, yes - wish failed but they're clearly looking to work more with this guy.

The old Hollywood saying, "one for them and one for me", still rings true today even with the depressed box office.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
Box office for Thursday seems to predict how this final weekend of the holiday season will go, before a deep freeze sets in at the box office for awhile. One thing I don't think we've mentioned is that The Color Purple musical from Warner's really seems to have underperformed at the box office; it had a budget of $100 Million per Variety and still hasn't broken $50 Million at the domestic box office. It's on a trajectory to lose at least $110 Million for Warner Brothers.

Wish and Poor Things look to end the holidays as they spent them, down in 14th and 10th place respectively.

I Firmly Believe That Thursday Night Is The First Part Of The Weekend.jpg
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
So Migration has made more than Wish. I haven't see it yet. Any good?
Nothing offensive or bad about it but not at all memorable, in my opinion.

It's good as a kids' movie but unlike other Illumination work, I don't feel like there was much there for parents/adults to enjoy.

Story-wise, I think it's better than anything Disney Feature Animation's put out in the last few years but that's not saying a whole lot.*

*Animation is a whole other thing. Disney/Pixar are still the studios to beat, there even with not everything quite hitting right with Wish.
 

DKampy

Well-Known Member
Box office for Thursday seems to predict how this final weekend of the holiday season will go, before a deep freeze sets in at the box office for awhile. One thing I don't think we've mentioned is that The Color Purple musical from Warner's really seems to have underperformed at the box office; it had a budget of $100 Million per Variety and still hasn't broken $50 Million at the domestic box office. It's on a trajectory to lose at least $110 Million for Warner Brothers.
It does not bother me… as I have also been discussing movies outside of Disney… However A couple of times I mentioned other movies to show the box office was not just a Disney issue… you told me this thread
is about Disney box office exclusively… and the only times you mentioned other movies is to compare numbers with Disney movies that were similar… so what Disney film are you comparing the Color Purple to?
 
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Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
The world of fiction is a grand feast with endless courses. Why worry about the dishes you don’t savor when there’s a whole menu to explore? And as for the crusades and the cries of victimhood, remember, in the vast library of stories, each book is an invitation, not an obligation. Choose your adventure and let others choose theirs!

In “Wonka,” the character Noodle, played by Calah Lane, brings a fresh and natural element to the story. As a key figure in Willy Wonka’s journey to becoming a legendary chocolatier, Noodle’s role is an example of how new characters can enrich a pre-existing universe. This casting choice is seen as a genuine contribution to the narrative, demonstrating how modern storytelling can be enhanced through diverse and thoughtful casting.
1. Take your own advice.
2. You seem to have really noticed Noodle’s race. You keep mentioning it. Why would anyone mention it? I see you.
3. Complaining about representation in film to a gay man is like complaining about a hangnail on your big toe to someone who lost their legs in a war. You seem completely oblivious to this.

How about you just leave me alone now. This isn’t interesting, productive, or fun.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
I’ve never understood the “create new stories for actors of colour” argument. A black Ariel and the character Noodle are not mutually exclusive.
Apparently they are to people who focus on certain things in a certain way.

It’s not that they were so in love with the original (voice) actress - if a different white woman had played live action Ariel, it would have been the number 3 or 4 movie of the year and made a profit - and there would be no talk of “bad story.” The problem for some was that a black woman “tainted” Ariel for them, and they have to find all kinds of excuses to say that in a way that doesn’t make them look bad (so they think.)

Clearly it still annoys me.
 

DisneyHead123

Well-Known Member
I’ve never understood the “create new stories for actors of colour” argument. A black Ariel and the character Noodle are not mutually exclusive.
I think you have to consider the backdrop of other societal messaging. When I was growing up, the goal was being “colorblind”. Having characters of any race in any role makes sense in that paradigm. More recently, colorblindness is considered a form of racism and respecting the unique history, culture, and nuances of different groups is strongly emphasized. Against that backdrop, the logical conclusion is that roles should be written that were specifically created with the history, culture, and nuances of a given group taken into account. Saying a role written for the proverbial “privileged white woman” can easily stand in as representative of a Black woman’s experience comes across as at best lazy.

Again, that is within a specific paradigm. I’ve seen both as the dominant way of thinking in my lifetime and think people can earnestly hold either view in good faith.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
I think you have to consider the backdrop of other societal messaging. When I was growing up, the goal was being “colorblind”. Having characters of any race in any role makes sense in that paradigm. More recently, colorblindness is considered a form of racism and respecting the unique history, culture, and nuances of different groups is strongly emphasized. Against that backdrop, the logical conclusion is that roles should be written that were specifically created with the history, culture, and nuances of a given group taken into account. Saying a role written for the proverbial “privileged white woman” can easily stand in as representative of a Black woman’s experience comes across as at best lazy.

Again, that is within a specific paradigm. I’ve seen both as the dominant way of thinking in my lifetime and think people can earnestly hold either view in good faith.
I’m not coming at it from the perspective of the colourblind argument, which I never bought anyway. In my view, both forms of representation—the creation of new characters and the recasting of traditionally white roles—are meaningful. Moreover, I’m not entirely convinced that those who have an issue with Halle Bailey being cast as Ariel are objecting for the reasons you suggest. Indeed, several posters have been quite open about the fact that their opposition rests on the belief that “race swapping” comes at the expense of white representation.
 

CinematicFusion

Well-Known Member
1. Take your own advice.
2. You seem to have really noticed Noodle’s race. You keep mentioning it. Why would anyone mention it? I see you.
3. Complaining about representation in film to a gay man is like complaining about a hangnail on your big toe to someone who lost their legs in a war. You seem completely oblivious to this.

How about you just leave me alone now. This isn’t interesting, productive, or fun.
Tony, I find our exchange to be quite perplexing. While I respect your viewpoints, I must express that labeling my opinions as racist seems to be a misinterpretation. My comments on Mermaid were solely from a marketing perspective, and my appreciation for the casting in Wonka was genuine. It’s interesting that you mentioned race in your last comment, which I thought I had responded to in a rational manner. Let’s try to keep this discussion focused on the subject matter rather than personal accusations.
I’ve never understood the “create new stories for actors of colour” argument. A black Ariel and the character Noodle are not mutually exclusive.
Please read my previous post for a better understanding.
 

Tony the Tigger

Well-Known Member
Tony, I find our exchange to be quite perplexing. While I respect your viewpoints, I must express that labeling my opinions as racist seems to be a misinterpretation. My comments on Mermaid were solely from a marketing perspective, and my appreciation for the casting in Wonka was genuine. It’s interesting that you mentioned race in your last comment, which I thought I had responded to in a rational manner. Let’s try to keep this discussion focused on the subject matter rather than personal accusations.

Please read my previous post for a better understanding.
I find our exchange tedious and annoying. Don’t worry, it’s almost over. I know myself.

Did I call you a racist? Or did you draw that line yourself? Why so defensive/self-conscious?
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
I’ve never understood the “create new stories for actors of colour” argument. A black Ariel and the character Noodle are not mutually exclusive.
In the Hollywood that exists now and has existed for well over a decade, a Hollywood that is structurally dependent on IPs, the demand amounts, intentionally or otherwise, to “don’t make films with minorities,” or “keep minority led films segregated to subgenres that don’t often cross into the mainstream.” I don’t think most people who make the demand think this way, they’re just saying something they think sounds good and that they haven’t actually thought out. The loudest voices pushing the position, however, know what they’re doing.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
I think you have to consider the backdrop of other societal messaging. When I was growing up, the goal was being “colorblind”. Having characters of any race in any role makes sense in that paradigm. More recently, colorblindness is considered a form of racism and respecting the unique history, culture, and nuances of different groups is strongly emphasized. Against that backdrop, the logical conclusion is that roles should be written that were specifically created with the history, culture, and nuances of a given group taken into account. Saying a role written for the proverbial “privileged white woman” can easily stand in as representative of a Black woman’s experience comes across as at best lazy.

Again, that is within a specific paradigm. I’ve seen both as the dominant way of thinking in my lifetime and think people can earnestly hold either view in good faith.
Except in the “colorblind” era, Bailey would never have been cast. That’s the point. The “colorblind” ethos relies on an idealized society free of hidden bias and systemic discrimination. We’re, sadly, very very far from that, though we’re certainly in a better place now then we were a few decades ago. The “colorblind” ideal all too often served as a shield from criticism for those who continued to discriminate and as a way to say, “those who acknowledge racism are the REAL racists.” “Colorblind” would just let Hollywood continue without even a nominal attempt at increasing diversity.

As to your second paradigm, I’ve often said that I think it’s reasonable to object to changes that alter something fundamental about the character - making Marvel’s Ben Grimm anything other then a Jewish male, for instance. But there is nothing about Ariel’s basic character that is changed by casting an African-American actress, and I haven’t seen any credible arguments stating that there is.
 

DisneyHead123

Well-Known Member
I’m not coming at it from the perspective of the colourblind argument, which I never bought anyway. In my view, both forms of representation—the creation of new characters and the recasting of traditionally white roles—are meaningful. Moreover, I’m not entirely convinced that those who have an issue with Halle Bailey being cast as Ariel are objecting for the reasons you suggest. Indeed, several posters have been quite open about the fact that their opposition rests on the belief that “race swapping” comes at the expense of white representation.

Except in the “colorblind” era, Bailey would never have been cast. That’s the point. The “colorblind” ethos relies on an idealized society free of hidden bias and systemic discrimination. We’re, sadly, very very far from that, though we’re certainly in a better place now then we were a few decades ago. The “colorblind” ideal all too often served as a shield from criticism for those who continued to discriminate and as a way to say, “those who acknowledge racism are the REAL racists.” “Colorblind” would just let Hollywood continue without even a nominal attempt at increasing diversity.

As to your second paradigm, I’ve often said that I think it’s reasonable to object to changes that alter something fundamental about the character - making Marvel’s Ben Grimm anything other then a Jewish male, for instance. But there is nothing about Ariel’s basic character that is changed by casting an African-American actress, and I haven’t seen any credible arguments stating that there is.
It’s just a theory of course. But it does seem to me that Brandy as Cinderella did well when “colorblindness” was a focus while Black Panther, Coco, Turning Red, etc. did better as society started transitioning into some form of Critical Race Theory.
 

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