Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Grovel at the feet of John Lasseter, publicly apologize for the way he was treated by the company, and pay him whatever he wants to come back.

But we know that's not going to happen.

…yeah…I was going for a “realistic” plan

 

[Casper Gutman]

Ms. Marvel was great because it was diverse, and the diversity was real. It didn't feel like a token exercise in corporate box-checking. It actually mattered that Kamala Khan came from a Pakistani-American family. It mattered to the character and it mattered to the story. And oh by the way, the story was small-c conservative. It's a story about family and tradition and history. The story portrayed parents as competent and loving, which fiction directed at kids and teens almost never does.


Do you agree, at least, that there's a difference between the following?

1. New, original characters.
2. Characters rooted in some kind of source material.
3. Characters rooted in actual human history.

Someone who objects to a new black character is probably just a racist. That's a different category from someone who objects to an already-established character being recast.


Gender and ethnicity are very different. Gender is a bona fide difference between people. Our lizard brains are hardwired to regard some traits as masculine and some as feminine. The superhero genre is rooted in violence, combat, and aggression. That's not inherently black or white but it's inherently masculine. Female superhero stories can work, but they work because they subvert expectations, not because men and women are interchangeable.


Wait, no, don't leave now, you and I might actually agree on something for once.

I COMPLETELY agree with you about Ms Marvel. It’s a stark contrast to something like Ghostbusters 3.

I can certainly see how ethnic or gender swaps could be reasonable points of contention if the characters original ethnicity or gender is fundamental to who they are. I don’t think this was the case with the Little Mermaid. Cards on the table, I would have been very unhappy if they had altered Ben Grimm’s identity, because I think The Thing’s Jewish heritage is important to who he is and particularly important to his creators, Lee and Kirby.

The characters in The Marvels don’t act like stereotypical men - there’s a lot more hugging then you’d get with Cap and Iron Man - but they do act like superheroes. I don’t really see superheroes as inherently masculine - we’ve got quite a few tough women in the armed forces like Carol, for instance, and Amazons like Wonder Woman aren’t notably peaceful. Female heroes with different backgrounds like Ms Marvel (the hug initiator) should be expected to act differently, and they do.

 

[TP2000]

Someone who objects to a new black character is probably just a racist. That's a different category from someone who objects to an already-established character being recast.

Agreed. But I think what makes people roll their eyes at Disney's casting choices is that it goes beyond even that.

When they mounted the lavish Frozen musical at the Hyperion Theater, both Hans and Anna were often played by a Black actor and actress. And if you even so much as questioned why, you were told you are a racist and that Arendelle is a fantasy world that has nothing to do with the Norwegian culture it portrays or the source text from famous Scandinavian author Hans Christian Andersen.

Meanwhile, over at the Fantasyland Theater they mounted a Tale Of The Lion King show with a large cast playing the animals from that movie. All of the lead actors and actresses were Black in that show. Why? They're portraying talking/singing fantasy based animals, not human Africans.

Among the 20+ Million people living in Southern California, 5% are Black. There were no other White, Latino or Asian actors to cast in the Tale of the Lion King? And the multiple Black actors who were cast in lead roles in Frozen just happened to be the absolute best talent possible?

That seems statistically impossible, unless you have a preset agenda for casting. And people can spot that sort of forced cringe a mile away, which is why stuff like The Marvels flops as badly as it does. It reads as fake and phony, not organic and natural.

 

[Andrew C]

why these opinions can't seem to be expressed without snarky disrespect

I can...but sometimes I give back what I get...

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Probably…

So then we’re back to this:

Their entire movie slate tanked this year…hard…and they need to fix it.

Not “optional”

So how do you fix it?

Wean people off super quick digital/Disney+ releases. We're seeing it with Indy to a degree. I wonder if a few more people would have seen it had they known they'd be waiting until December to watch it as part of a subscription?

Reduce the TV series and/or make them distinctly separate from the theatrical releases. If I want a Marvel fix today I can watch Loki. There's less demand to go out to see The Marvels.

Focus on behind the scenes talent. Everyone loved Jack Sparrow but for me, the reason the first 3 Pirates movies were so good was the director. The 4th and 5th installments just felt off. For all the talk of Downey and Evans, where's the push to bring back the writers and directors of the most popular Marvel installments.

 

[TP2000]

Domestic Box Office data is now out for the Thursday previews last night. Is this how The Marvels will spend it's second weekend in theaters, in third place?

 

[Casper Gutman]

Wean people off super quick digital/Disney+ releases. We're seeing it with Indy to a degree. I wonder if a few more people would have seen it had they known they'd be waiting until December to watch it as part of a subscription?

Reduce the TV series and/or make them distinctly separate from the theatrical releases. If I want a Marvel fix today I can watch Loki. There's less demand to go out to see The Marvels.

Focus on behind the scenes talent. Everyone loved Jack Sparrow but for me, the reason the first 3 Pirates movies were so good was the director. The 4th and 5th installments just felt off. For all the talk of Downey and Evans, where's the push to bring back the writers and directors of the most popular Marvel installments.

I agree with all this except the last bit. The Marvel writers and directors were never very vital, it was the process that mattered. That process seems to have fallen apart, and that’s what needs to be fixed. Feige returning to more day-to-day control is a big step in that direction. I also think it may be wise to diverge from MCU tradition and bring in a distinctive big name director until the ship is righted. Marvel apparently agrees, because word is Raimi will be directing BOTH upcoming Avengers films.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Agreed. But I think what makes people roll their eyes at Disney's casting choices is that it goes beyond even that.

When they mounted the lavish Frozen musical at the Hyperion Theater, both Hans and Anna were often played by a Black actor and actress. And if you even so much as questioned why, you were told you are a racist and that Arendelle is a fantasy world that has nothing to do with the Norwegian culture it portrays or the source text from famous Scandinavian author Hans Christian Andersen.

Meanwhile, over at the Fantasyland Theater they mounted a Tale Of The Lion King show with a large cast playing the animals from that movie. All of the lead actors and actresses were Black in that show. Why? They're portraying talking/singing fantasy based animals, not human Africans.

Among the 20+ Million people living in Southern California, 5% are Black. There were no other White, Latino or Asian actors to cast in the Tale of the Lion King? And the multiple Black actors who were cast in lead roles in Frozen just happened to be the absolute best talent possible?

That seems statistically impossible, unless you have a preset agenda for casting. And people can spot that sort of forced cringe a mile away, which is why stuff like The Marvels flops as badly as it does. It reads as fake and phony, not organic and natural.

I will say this about the Frozen show... Anna and Elsa's father (forget what his name is) was played by a black actor the day I saw it. There's a long history in musical theater of suspension of disbelief, where morbidly obese, barely-able-to-walk, 70+ year old Luciano Pavarotti can play the heroic young warrior Radames from Aida, or black American Leontyne Price can play Madame Butterfly, mainly because the most important prerequisite was their voice, not how they looked on stage. So, there was nothing surprising to me about seeing a black actor play a fantasy Scandinavian king, although one does wonder why in the case of a Lion King show, the door didn't swing the other way.

Of course, in the heightened reality of cinema, this simply doesn't work.

 

[Phroobar]

Grovel at the feet of John Lasseter, publicly apologize for the way he was treated by the company, and pay him whatever he wants to come back.

But we know that's not going to happen.

What has John Lasseter done lately outside of Lucky on AppleTV+. Even that wasn't very good.

 

[TP2000]

I will say this about the Frozen show... Anna and Elsa's father (forget what his name is) was played by a black actor the day I saw it. There's a long history in musical theater of suspension of disbelief, where morbidly obese, barely-able-to-walk, 70+ year old Luciano Pavarotti can play the heroic young warrior Radames from Aida, or black American Leontyne Price can play Madame Butterfly, mainly because the most important prerequisite was their voice, not how they looked on stage. So, there was nothing surprising to me about seeing a black actor play a fantasy Scandinavian king, although one does wonder why in the case of a Lion King show, the door didn't swing the other way.

Of course, in the heightened reality of cinema, this simply doesn't work.

I'd forgotten about the father in Frozen. There were multiple Norwegians Arrendellians played by Black actors and actresses.

And yet, in the Lion King show where a dozen people are portraying singing animals, only one race was ever cast for those roles.

That's weird and cringey. And demographically statistically impossible to pull off in Southern California in the 2020's.

 

[TalkingHead]

Probably…

So then we’re back to this:

Their entire movie slate tanked this year…hard…and they need to fix it.

Not “optional”

So how do you fix it?

A safe option would be to hire a name talent to direct a retro back-to-basics practical-heavy SW feature that takes place on the other side of the galaxy where nobody’s heard the name Skywalker.

Saw today where Waititi said in an interview his SW feature will “[tick] off fans.” I mean, that comment should be grounds for never giving him the keys. If he does eventually make one, that comment alone will cost Disney millions at the box office. It’s just bad show business. Unnecessarily provocative.

Bad news is I think they have even less of a clue how to fix SW than they do with Marvel.

 

[TP2000]

Saw today where Waititi said in an interview his SW feature will “[tick] off fans.” I mean, that comment should be grounds for never giving him the keys. If he does eventually make one, that comment alone will cost Disney millions at the box office. It’s just bad show business. Unnecessarily provocative.

It's also idiotic. Can you imagine if WDI hired a new exec who said he has plans to build new rides at Disneyland that will "tick off the park's fans"???

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

A safe option would be to hire a name talent to direct a retro back-to-basics practical-heavy SW feature that takes place on the other side of the galaxy where nobody’s heard the name Skywalker.

Saw today where Waititi said in an interview his SW feature will “[tick] off fans.” I mean, that comment should be grounds for never giving him the keys. If he does eventually make one, that comment alone will cost Disney millions at the box office. It’s just bad show business. Unnecessarily provocative.

Bad news is I think they have even less of a clue how to fix SW than they do with Marvel.

In his defense, ANY Star Wars movie will tick off "fans".

 

[Phroobar]

In his defense, ANY Star Wars movie will tick off "fans".

Not true.

I wish Star Wars would have stayed with Lucas. At least then we wouldn't have every freak in the world wanting to put their dumb spin on it. It is like these idiots are purposely trying to destroy it.

At least Lucas was consistent.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Not true.

I wish Star Wars would have stayed with Lucas. At least then we wouldn't have every freak in the world wanting to put their dumb spin on it. It is like these idiots are purposely trying to destroy it.

At least Lucas was consistent.

How quickly we forget the prequels.

 

[TalkingHead]

In his defense, ANY Star Wars movie will tick off "fans".

Bottom line is Disney and their talent seem to have no idea how to navigate public discourse nowadays. We’re talking the company that was the best in brand management for decades. I’m sure the aggro (fill in the gap) YouTubers appreciate it because it gives them yet another criticism to monetize.

 

[Disgruntled Walt]

Not true.

I wish Star Wars would have stayed with Lucas. At least then we wouldn't have every freak in the world wanting to put their dumb spin on it. It is like these idiots are purposely trying to destroy it.

At least Lucas was consistent.

Yeah I think a Lucas sequel trilogy would probably have been garbage. I've heard some weird stuff about what his plan was. But a well-done and cohesive sequel trilogy, that would have been good (also, just having all three original trilogy actors in the same scene for one frigging moment would have been nice).

 

[LittleBuford]

Hang on. Let's use The Little Mermaid as an example.

Up until 10 seconds ago, the position supporting the casting of TLM was "this was a color-blind decision given to the best actress for the job, regardless of any DEI considerations."

Now it's "Disney's content is being designed to be more inclusive than in the past."

I personally think it was both: she was eminently qualified for the job and her casting was meant to further inclusivity. Those things aren’t mutually exclusive in my view.

 

[LittleBuford]

although one does wonder why in the case of a Lion King show, the door didn't swing the other way.

Perhaps because of how many doors have historically been closed to actors of colour.

 

[Disgruntled Walt]

Perhaps because of how many doors have historically been closed to actors of colour.

How long will theatrical productions have to atone for the sins of the past?

Hamilton has those requirements about who plays who because none of the Founding Fathers were people of color (aside, strangely, from the villainous King George). Yet the Lion King does so because it takes place in Africa? Those two objectives don't seem aligned to me.

But we're probably getting too far off the beaten path here.