Disney (and others) at the Box Office - Current State of Affairs

[flynnibus]

Good lord. There is absolutely ZERO reason for remaking a film if you are going to remake it the exact same way.

I look forward to your John Wick remakes staring Leslie Jones... because that's what makes a remake a worthy venture!

 

[_caleb]

Of course it is. But when reasons are given, the motives are questioned as you really don't believe that, it's all just "wink wink" you don't like diversity.

is it possible that some people just don’t like diversity? Is it possible that some fans think they don’t like the new stories, but it’s actually some biases coming into play that they hadn’t considered?

When I say blame, I'm talking about the posters who keep going after anyone who offers up any criticism of any diversity project. Just two examples are myself and when @flynnibus gave thoughts that weren't just "because it's stupid!" And those thoughts were immediately met with, you're not telling the truth. You're just mad because it's not white males, type comments.

If the analysis focuses on diversity as being the reason someone doesn’t like a film (or Disney’s last several films), what are we supposed to think?

Sorry, I was talking more about the "why does it have to devolve" statement. When I say go after, I'm talking about the constant questioning of motives and throwing the anti diversity angle back at us every time.

I’m sorry it feels that way. I appreciate the discussion. I think our interests do draw us back to recurring themes, but I don’t think it’s good to characterize people (especially people we don’t really know).

I don't find it threatening at all. If I say yea I don't like it, I fully expect to be questioned as to why. Again, I'm talking as to why it constantly devolves like you said. And that's the type of questioning of someones reasons, not that they are questioning.

When any of us are questioned (normal on a discussion board) and then give an explanation and that explanation isn’t believed, it is frustrating. But I’m not sure what we can do about that. But I’m pretty sure that doubling down and fighting to be understood (as some do around here) isn’t productive.

I'm all for discussion, it's why I'm here. I've been a fan since I was a child but that doesn't mean I can't question the quality of their output over the last few years. That doesn't make me a super secret culture war activist trying to take down the evil Disney. Or that I'm denying that the culture war has an impact. I won't pretend to like something in the name of diversity, I either like it or I don't.

Yeah, I’ve experienced this to be true of you and of @flynnibus. I’d encourage you to try not to read tone into every questioning reply and to keep participating in good faith. Lots of us just like the discussion!

 

[Casper Gutman]

I totally get the "I never saw myself in XYZ..." positions, etc. I also understand when someone says "all the movies are only of this style" whatever. And I'm totally for someone saying "we should have more movies that represent X...".

A simple example from our previous generations... where there wasn't film or media that represented life for young black men. Or shows that represented real urban life challenges instead of just white bread Happy Days stuff.

But to me, that is not the same as say Hamilton. I cite Hamilton because there is no debate over the reasoning in the casting - casting non-white performers was part of a specific creative choice. This is not casting 'because this is 'reality' being represented... or color-blind casting. It was intentional.

Now I'm not saying every retelling is done the same way as Hamilton. I use it to contrast because in many projects if someone even suggests the choices are intentional, it's attacked as someone being anti-something... instead of just acknowledging people often ARE making choices. Either to specifically be color-blind, even in contrast to the subject matter, and not just 'casting the best person', or 'casting to be representative'.

But for many of the Disney remakes we are talking about - these are not films made from scratch. They are basing on stories with known content.. in addition to existing (and in many cases, cherished) interpretations. So I think it's head-in-sand when people go 'why are you bothered by XYZ change? This is representation!' etc.

Or examples when the inclusion causes specific conflicts with the character or setting. For instance, you shouldn't cast a black Roman Casear. Just the same as you shouldn't cast an overweight, lazy guy as John Wick. Their attributes conflict with the expectations of the character as known in the story.


Inclusion is great. Inclusion that causes conflict and then telling people "You should ignore that you bigot!" is not the same thing.

I mean, if you want to tell Sleeping Beauty, but instead want to make Auroa a lesbian to be saved by her handmaid instead of the prince... go for it.. but it's not Sleeping Beauty anymore. Make your film and call it something else (See... Wicked). Or if you want to remake Romeo and Juliet but make it a same sex couple fighting for acceptance from their families... that's fine, but don't launch it as a Romeo and Juliet remake!



I think in defense of inclusion or initiatives, people attack any questioning of choices made and lump all criticism into hate buckets. Instead of being able to accept people just didn't like something because of changes or conflicts with things.

It's not insane to recognize casting involves matching the performer with THE ROLE. The ROLE can include things like gender, physical attributes, race, sexual orientation, etc. Many times, changing those attributes introduces conflict with the story as known, or the environment, etc. Not wanting a black Roman Emperor is not because you hate black people, it's not wanting the conflict between the performer and the role as known.

I know Flynn won’t see this, but I’m not sure how making the Little Mermaid African-American causes conflict with some fundamental aspect of the story.

I’d also point out Flynn accused Ms Marvel of being equivalent to Ghostbusters 3 - that is, a cynical flip of characters’ identity done for marketing purposes that didn’t serve any meaningful thematic or characterization purposes in the text - and then dismissed out of hand all the reasons that Ms Marvels identity was at the very core of the story and contributed to every thematic thread.

 

[flynnibus]

is it possible that some people just don’t like diversity? Is it possible that some fans think they don’t like the new stories, but it’s actually some biases coming into play that they hadn’t considered?

Do you realize it is incredibly rude to be judging people you don't even know and telling them they you probably know more about their thinking then they themselves? Purely based on you not agreeing with their conclusions?

You are repeatedly telling people "well maybe there is something there..." with absolutely nothing to base it on except for working backwards from your disagreement with their conclusion. It's incredibly rude and disrepectful

 

[celluloid]

Now look at it another way:

Count up all the Disney animated films with all-white casts.

Now count up the ones with all-white casts and a minority sidekick.

Then count up the ones based on an ethnicity other than white.

Proportionality, indeed.

I don't think this poster knows the definition of proportionally. Proportionally, is not the same as even.


Cartoons are caricatures, it is understandable why the world wants to often avoid it in the past, and since.

There are people claiming King Louie is racist for goodness sake.

 

[Chi84]

I look forward to your John Wick remakes staring Leslie Jones... because that's what makes a remake a worthy venture!

Why argue in the extremes, though? Disney hasn't done this. They cast a black actress in the new Little Mermaid, which didn't have any impact at all on the story. In fact, in terms of how the seven seas were represented, it made more sense than casting a white actress.

 

[_caleb]

Do you realize it is incredibly rude to be judging people you don't even know and telling them they you probably know more about their thinking then they themselves? Purely based on you not agreeing with their conclusions?

I’m not judging anyone. I’m hoping we might all reflect a bit on why we think/feel/believe the way we do. For me, it’s interesting to explore what motivates us. I don’t see how that’s judgmental.

Do you not think that it’s possible some fans don’t like diversity? Do you not think some haven’t thought through their motivations for not liking Disney’s current film strategies? Why do you find it threatening to ask these questions?

You are repeatedly telling people "well maybe there is something there..." with absolutely nothing to base it on except for working backwards from your disagreement with their conclusion. It's incredibly rude and disrepectful

I’m sorry you felt disrespected. I assure you I’ve tried to ask questions rather than tell anyone anything.

Please try not to read negative, judgmental, or confrontational tone into anything I post. I know most of us don’t actually know each other, but we spend enough time here I’d like for us to discuss without escalating emotionally. I’ll try to be more sensitive with my wording so we can keep the conversation on track and on topic.

 

[erasure fan1]

I would like to point out that because you don’t go to the theaters…several trouble makers in this thread would say you have no right to an opinion as elemental, little mermaid and Indy crashed 4 months ago…

I don't think it's he doesn't have a right to an opinion. That wasn't the point of my response. The point was he doesn't have the right to say others don't have an opinion for the same offense. That's the issue. When it was said that mermaid didn't look very good from the trailer. Questionable cg, bad character design, looked cut and paste... All valid reasons to be skeptical of the film. Myself and others, and you if I remember right, were told you haven't seen it, so your opinion doesn't count. And he was on the front lines shouting people down.

 

[erasure fan1]

is it possible that some people just don’t like diversity? Is it possible that some fans think they don’t like the new stories, but it’s actually some biases coming into play that they hadn’t considered?

100%, and I've said that, many many times. But I've also said that I don't believe that the main reason for Disneys issues at the box office are because of that. Does it play a factor? Yes. But I just don't see it as the defining reason. And because of that, the implication is I just have a hidden agenda. But anyone paying attention, would see the projects I do support and have liked and talked about on these boards for nearly 20yrs, would know that isn't the case.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I don't think it's he doesn't have a right to an opinion. That wasn't the point of my response. The point was he doesn't have the right to say others don't have an opinion for the same offense. That's the issue. When it was said that mermaid didn't look very good from the trailer. Questionable cg, bad character design, looked cut and paste... All valid reasons to be skeptical of the film. Myself and others, and you if I remember right, were told you haven't seen it, so your opinion doesn't count. And he was on the front lines shouting people down.

I didn’t even read what you said

I was pointing out the hypocrisy of those that defend the shield against reality…and then “forget” later

 

[Chi84]

Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t remember people being criticized for saying - without more - that they prefer to wait until a film is available to watch at home.

I’m reluctant to see anything in theaters as a matter of personal choice based on people’s inability to stay off their phones (and otherwise behave properly) in public settings.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I don't think it's he doesn't have a right to an opinion. That wasn't the point of my response. The point was he doesn't have the right to say others don't have an opinion for the same offense. That's the issue. When it was said that mermaid didn't look very good from the trailer. Questionable cg, bad character design, looked cut and paste... All valid reasons to be skeptical of the film. Myself and others, and you if I remember right, were told you haven't seen it, so your opinion doesn't count. And he was on the front lines shouting people down.

There! Those are SUBSTANTIVE reasons to attack a film! Bad CGI and character design, no clear reason to exist… very valid! But that isn’t the entirety of what we heard and generally weren’t the criticisms put forward by the most persistent posters.

Also, it’s fair to say that those who haven’t seen a film might have a less complete idea of the project and some of their criticisms might be less valid, but in the name of open debate their opinions should still be considered and discussed.

 

[Casper Gutman]

100%, and I've said that, many many times. But I've also said that I don't believe that the main reason for Disneys issues at the box office are because of that. Does it play a factor? Yes. But I just don't see it as the defining reason. And because of that, the implication is I just have a hidden agenda. But anyone paying attention, would see the projects I do support and have liked and talked about on these boards for nearly 20yrs, would know that isn't the case.

Who said the culture war stuff was the main reason some of Disney’s films have struggled? It’s a factor and is fairly prevalent here, but it’s not the main factor, certainly not compared to changing box office behavior or film quality.

 

[erasure fan1]

There! Those are SUBSTANTIVE reasons to attack a film! Bad CGI and character design, no clear reason to exist… very valid! But that isn’t the entirety of what we heard and generally weren’t the criticisms put forward by the most persistent posters.

Yes they are the same reasons I gave back then. But it wasn't acceptable back then, it was still argued as, you haven't seen it,or you really just hate Bailey. I get some weren't, but I wasn't.

Also, it’s fair to say that those who haven’t seen a film might have a less complete idea of the project and some of their criticisms might be less valid, but in the name of open debate their opinions should still be considered and discussed.

I agree, that's what I'm saying. My opinion of which comes from a place of not having seen the film, is no more or less valid than someone else who hasn't seen said film either. It's one thing to say I don't agree, but it's the there's some alternative motive at work that gets tiresome.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Yes they are the same reasons I gave back then. But it wasn't acceptable back then, it was still argued as, you haven't seen it,or you really just hate Bailey. I get some weren't, but I wasn't.

I agree, that's what I'm saying. My opinion of which comes from a place of not having seen the film, is no more or less valid than someone else who hasn't seen said film either. It's one thing to say I don't agree, but it's the there's some alternative motive at work that gets tiresome.

My perception, valid or otherwise, is that you don’t engage in the culture war stuff, but when others do, you have a tendency to attempt to minimize or even deny it. Perhaps that’s unfair. For what it’s worth, that’s also my perception of Raleigh.

 

[erasure fan1]

My perception, valid or otherwise, is that you don’t engage in the culture war stuff, but when others do, you attempt to minimize or even deny it. Perhaps that’s unfair. For what it’s worth, that’s also my perception of Raleigh.

Personally I don't put a lot of stock into what they say. I think the reason is a lot of us get lumped in with the others and that's who I'm sticking up for. And I'm made to defend myself because when criticism is given, it so often comes down culture war stuff. Even when that wasn't the intent or meaning.

 

[ABQ]

I know, no one cares about reviews, but wow, that Irish Times one that's flying all over the place is hilarious.
The Marvels review: The Marvel Cinematic Universe disappears up its own black hole

 

[Casper Gutman]

I think it’s important when one reads a review like this to remember, as has been stated in this forum, that a feature film’s director has no responsibility nor impact on a film’s quality, audience reception, or global box office performance.

“The arrival of a solid contender for the worst Marvel film yet will do little to dispel suggestions that this cinematic universe is disappearing up its own black hole. To say The Marvels is hard to watch would be to risk understatement. It’s not just that it’s not very good. It is hard to watch in the sense that a tree is hard to defibrillate.

This chaotic, ugly, incoherent picture barely seems intended for exhibition. The horrible purple CGI. The characters magically swapping locations. The long breaks for utterly fruitless exposition. Our brains are not sufficiently evolved – or perhaps they are too evolved – to make sense of this audiovisual chop suey.“

You really have it in for DaCosta, huh?

The reviews for The Marvels are certainly mixed, but this review is not in any way representative.

 

[BuddyThomas]

Do you realize it is incredibly rude to be judging people you don't even know and telling them they you probably know more about their thinking then they themselves? Purely based on you not agreeing with their conclusions?

You are repeatedly telling people "well maybe there is something there..." with absolutely nothing to base it on except for working backwards from your disagreement with their conclusion. It's incredibly rude and disrepectful

I think people are just reacting to the words that you are typing.

 

[celluloid]

I know, no one cares about reviews, but wow, that Irish Times one that's flying all over the place is hilarious.
The Marvels review: The Marvel Cinematic Universe disappears up its own black hole

An article by our very own DisneyIrish!