Discussion about how paid Fastpass will work

[Touchdown]

I’m tired of the old thread constantly veering off into free vs paid Fastpass. Look, the industry standard is a paid option, we all knew Disney would go there eventually. This thread is going to assume it’s happening, and is not, I repeat not, to discuss if it’s a good idea to go from free to paid. I instead want to discuss why I think DLP’s premier access at WDW will be a disaster. To start the conversation with like minded individuals I will repost my thoughts that previously go hurried in that thread:


I can’t read this thread meltdown in its entirety, so I apologize if this has been mentioned before, I am not going to debate the merits of free vs paid FP. I instead want to focus on why I think premier access is not going to work at WDW, mainly by comparing it to other North American Theme Park offerings.

Ok first let’s guess on the price, 8 euros is roughly $10 based on the exchange rate. While WDW is likely to be more expensive I’m going to give PA the benefit of the doubt and make the starting price $9.99 my gut feeling is the top rate will be double that, $19.99. Let’s average that price at $15 for simplicity.

Ok what does that buy you? It buys you essentially a Fastpass, a ticket to come back later during a time you can’t pick (potentially hours later) during a set interval and wait in potentially a 30 min line once (assuming it’s used as much as FP now.)

The only park that offers something similar is Six Flags with their Flash Pass. The base model grants you a device where you can select a line and have your virtual queue wait for you 75% whatever the wait is for the ride (upcharges reduce that time by 50% and 90%) at your time you will have a <15 min wait at the ride. The price for the bronze flash pass at the chains flagship park (Magic Mountain) starts at $60, and Sat July 10 is $75 which I assume is the ceiling price (Saturday in the summer.). Obviously $75>$15, but I think even the most inept guest is likely to ride >6 rides in a day thus not only do you have to wait less time in a virtual queue you get a “discount rate on the whole day.”

Sea World/Busch Gardens has a punch card system that allows you a ride on every ride that offers quick queue (anytime you want) for a similar rate.

Cedar Fair and Universal offer a pass that allows you to use the Fastlane/Express pass queue unlimited times during the day. Cedar Fair’s flagship park Cedar Point charges $101-$169 for this privilege. To get to $15 a ride you have to ride 12 rides, very likely for an average guest. Universals 2 park unlimited ranges from $101-$329. 22 rides to get to $15 a ride, doable but only for warriors but even if you don’t hit all the rides the flexibility and unlimited access has tangible benefits.

As you can see, Disney’s Premier Access is more expensive, more restrictive, less user friendly, and feels more like a money grab (constantly having to purchase this anytime you want to use it for each ride) then any system in the United States and it has the additional handicap of being introduced to replace something that was free.

This is going to seriously hurt the brand, perhaps permanently and be widely unpopular and prone to user error; in short a disaster.

They should have brought Maxpass East or mimicked one of their competitors, I don’t think Americans are going to accept this.

REMEMBER IN THIS THREAD WE ASSUME FREE FASTPASS IS NOT COMING BACK AND WILL NOT DEBATE THE MERITS OF THAT DECISION. This is to discuss how paid Fastpass will appear at WDW.

 

[Jrb1979]

I personally think the best way to go is a Cedar Fair system. This return time thing is dumb and I've always felt that way.

 

[IanDLBZF]

Sea World/Busch Gardens has a punch card system that allows you a ride on every ride that offers quick queue (anytime you want) for a similar rate.

They also offer an unlimited option which uses a wristband instead of a punch card.

 

[Touchdown]

They also offer an unlimited option which uses a wristband instead of a punch card.

I know, I was trying to point out cheaper options offered at some parks and point out not everyone sells unlimited everything, which Disney is never going to do as they already sell it (VIP guides) at a much higher cost.

 

[Jrb1979]

I know, I was trying to point out cheaper options offered at some parks and point out not everyone sells unlimited everything, which Disney is never going to do as they already sell it (VIP guides) at a much higher cost.

They won't do an unlimited pass but why they can't do a version of Universal's pass where you get ride things once. I never understood the appeal of return times.

 

[hopemax]

If you ask people currently waiting for tomorrow's opportunity to book their RotR boarding group, what they would pay for their family of 4 to skip all of that, and just pay, I can see so many people saying, "For this one ride, to guarantee it. Not have to wake up early, or stress"...they'll slap down $100 so fast. It falls into the category of, "I've already spent thousands, I am not going to let this last $100 get in my way." How many times have people already asked for the option to pay, "Whatever, just tell me what the number is and let me decide?"

Now, you've secured the ride for your benefit...are you really going to look at your daughter's face and tell her she can't ride Frozen because you know she'll get cranky with the wait, or you will, and you don't want to fork over another $50?

Arguing this from the perspective of a general idea, will mean nothing when it goes up against the specific, emotionality of needing to have a happy vacation and fighting against the exhaustion. Which requires people doing the things they want most, and avoiding Mr. Crankypants that will make everyone miserable when the line ticks over 30-45 minutes. This is about Star Wars, Frozen, FOP and SDMT, not <insert random attraction>. It will be about Guardians and Tron. There's a thread over on the DIS where someone realized how they are part of the problem. They had their epiphany when they realized they were packing trash bags in their suitcase for their stay at a Deluxe WDW hotel they were paying hundreds of dollars for. They know what they are doing is insane, and yet they continue. Doing the insane is easier and more emotionally satisfying than saying no.

One of the things that the pandemic has proven is the "convenience" economy is here to stay. Whatever we thought was rational and expected before, is gone. Now everyone's paying for grocery store pickups and fast food deliveries, so why not for the convenience and even more tangible benefit of the line skip, on your kid's dream, see how great a parent, but I don't have the tolerance for queuing I am, vacation? Combine that with everyone's YOLO mentality, which was also greatly refined over the last 18 months, and we're facing a whole lot of crazy options that previously would have been filed under, "people aren't that stupid about money, are they?"

 

[Touchdown]

They won't do an unlimited pass but why they can't do a version of Universal's pass where you get ride things once. I never understood the appeal of return times.

Oh I agree, but I would be ok with Maxpass, even up to $50 a day for 4 parks, provided there wasn’t a free option devaluing your ability to book fastpasses.

 

[Touchdown]

If you ask people currently waiting for tomorrow's opportunity to book their RotR boarding group, what they would pay for their family of 4 to skip all of that, and just pay, I can see so many people saying, "For this one ride, to guarantee it. Not have to wake up early, or stress"...they'll slap down $100 so fast. It falls into the category of, "I've already spent thousands, I am not going to let this last $100 get in my way." How many times have people already asked for the option to pay, "Whatever, just tell me what the number is and let me decide?"

Now, you've secured the ride for your benefit...are you really going to look at your daughter's face and tell her she can't ride Frozen because you know she'll get cranky with the wait, or you will, and you don't want to fork over another $50?

Arguing this from the perspective of a general idea, will mean nothing when it goes up against the specific, emotionality of needing to have a happy vacation and fighting against the exhaustion. Which requires people doing the things they want most, and avoiding Mr. Crankypants that will make everyone miserable when the line ticks over 30-45 minutes. This is about Star Wars, Frozen, FOP and SDMT, not <insert random attraction>. It will be about Guardians and Tron. There's a thread over on the DIS where someone realized how they are part of the problem. They had their epiphany when they realized they were packing trash bags in their suitcase for their stay at a Deluxe WDW hotel they were paying hundreds of dollars for. They know what they are doing is insane, and yet they continue. Doing the insane is easier and more emotionally satisfying than saying no.

One of the things that the pandemic has proven is the "convenience" economy is here to stay. Whatever we thought was rational and expected before, is gone. Now everyone's paying for grocery store pickups and fast food deliveries, so why not for the convenience and even more tangible benefit of the line skip, on your kid's dream, see how great a parent, but I don't have the tolerance for queuing I am, vacation? Combine that with everyone's YOLO mentality, which was also greatly refined over the last 18 months, and we're facing a whole lot of crazy options that previously would have been filed under, "people aren't that stupid about money, are they?"

That only goes so far though, people who kept their job are spending their entertainment money from this year and last year. Eventually all the 2020 money will be spent and everyone will finally realize the inflation that has happened in travel, food, and home supplies. I continue to expect an economic downturn in the near future, P/E ratios are way out of wack on stocks, there is no where to go but down. I don’t think Disney is going to escape this one scot free like they did in 2008.

 

[Jrb1979]

Oh I agree, but I would be ok with Maxpass, even up to $50 a day for 4 parks, provided there wasn’t a free option devaluing your ability to book fastpasses.

IMO that's too cheap. It needs to be priced higher. I'm of the belief the less Fast pass available the better it works.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

I think fastpasses should be free just like Walt intended!

 

[Touchdown]

IMO that's too cheap. It needs to be priced higher. I'm of the belief the less Fast pass available the better it works.

Above that rate I become a very infrequent user, $50 would get me to buy it a vast majority of my visits.

however, I think Disney wants to use their FP lines, and they need volume for that.

 

[RobbinsDad]

One of the things that the pandemic has proven is the "convenience" economy is here to stay. Whatever we thought was rational and expected before, is gone. Now everyone's paying for grocery store pickups and fast food deliveries, so why not for the convenience and even more tangible benefit of the line skip, on your kid's dream, see how great a parent, but I don't have the tolerance for queuing I am, vacation? Combine that with everyone's YOLO mentality, which was also greatly refined over the last 18 months, and we're facing a whole lot of crazy options that previously would have been filed under, "people aren't that stupid about money, are they?"

Thank you. This exactly. This is what I've been trying to say in the other thread all along - it's not about what's rational, it's about Disney doubling-down on behavior that has become customary in our society: paying for convenience and personalization. Alexa (I mean the Genie) has created an itinerary just for my family, and because I will use Premier Access for 2 of the rides, I can go right to the front! The New American Dream = VIP life, and at Disney you can have it (for a day).

 

[Jrb1979]

Above that rate I become a very infrequent user, $50 would get me to buy it a vast majority of my visits.

That's the point. That's how it works at every other park out there. You don't want a lot of people buying it every time. The way you have it priced the vast majority will buy it and IMO changes nothing. You still have the same system as before but are now making money off of it. I would never pay money for it.

 

[Touchdown]

That's the point. That's how it works at every other park out there. You don't want a lot of people buying it every time. The way you have it priced the vast majority will buy it and IMO changes nothing. You still have the same system as before but are now making money off of it. I would never pay money for it.

Yeah but every other park doesn’t require you to schedule specific times, even Six Flags leaves your window open indefinitely. That’s my point, Disney is charging you too much to inconvenience you like that.

 

[havoc315]

I’m tired of the old thread constantly veering off into free vs paid Fastpass. Look, the industry standard is a paid option, we all knew Disney would go there eventually. This thread is going to assume it’s happening, and is not, I repeat not, to discuss if it’s a good idea to go from free to paid. I instead want to discuss why I think DLP’s premier access at WDW will be a disaster. To start the conversation with like minded individuals I will repost my thoughts that previously go hurried in that thread:


I can’t read this thread meltdown in its entirety, so I apologize if this has been mentioned before, I am not going to debate the merits of free vs paid FP. I instead want to focus on why I think premier access is not going to work at WDW, mainly by comparing it to other North American Theme Park offerings.

Ok first let’s guess on the price, 8 euros is roughly $10 based on the exchange rate. While WDW is likely to be more expensive I’m going to give PA the benefit of the doubt and make the starting price $9.99 my gut feeling is the top rate will be double that, $19.99. Let’s average that price at $15 for simplicity.

Ok what does that buy you? It buys you essentially a Fastpass, a ticket to come back later during a time you can’t pick (potentially hours later) during a set interval and wait in potentially a 30 min line once (assuming it’s used as much as FP now.)

The only park that offers something similar is Six Flags with their Flash Pass. The base model grants you a device where you can select a line and have your virtual queue wait for you 75% whatever the wait is for the ride (upcharges reduce that time by 50% and 90%) at your time you will have a <15 min wait at the ride. The price for the bronze flash pass at the chains flagship park (Magic Mountain) starts at $60, and Sat July 10 is $75 which I assume is the ceiling price (Saturday in the summer.). Obviously $75>$15, but I think even the most inept guest is likely to ride >6 rides in a day thus not only do you have to wait less time in a virtual queue you get a “discount rate on the whole day.”

Sea World/Busch Gardens has a punch card system that allows you a ride on every ride that offers quick queue (anytime you want) for a similar rate.

Cedar Fair and Universal offer a pass that allows you to use the Fastlane/Express pass queue unlimited times during the day. Cedar Fair’s flagship park Cedar Point charges $101-$169 for this privilege. To get to $15 a ride you have to ride 12 rides, very likely for an average guest. Universals 2 park unlimited ranges from $101-$329. 22 rides to get to $15 a ride, doable but only for warriors but even if you don’t hit all the rides the flexibility and unlimited access has tangible benefits.

As you can see, Disney’s Premier Access is more expensive,

Your math shows that DPA is cheaper than Universal. At $329… like you said, it would require 22 rides to make it $15 per ride. If you did only 10 rides, then you’re paying $33 per ride — so in that scenario, Universal is more than double the DPA price

more restrictive, less user friendly,

And compared to Universal… DPA seems less restrictive. You can buy it solely for the rides that really need it. At Universal, you may pay $100 during low crowds, but most rides are walk on with it or without it. (That’s happened to me at Universal). So the UEP may only save you time at 2-3 rides. So you paid $33 to $50 per use of the UEP. But you could have just purchased 3 DPAs for $45.

and feels more like a money grab (constantly having to purchase this anytime you want to use it for each ride) then any system in the United States and it has the additional handicap of being introduced to replace something that was free.

This is going to seriously hurt the brand, perhaps permanently and be widely unpopular and prone to user error; in short a disaster.

They should have brought Maxpass East or mimicked one of their competitors, I don’t think Americans are going to accept this.

REMEMBER IN THIS THREAD WE ASSUME FREE FASTPASS IS NOT COMING BACK AND WILL NOT DEBATE THE MERITS OF THAT DECISION. This is to discuss how paid Fastpass will appear at WDW.

 

[Brian]

I think fastpasses should be free just like Walt intended!

Walt would be ROLLING in his grave if he knew what was happening!

 

[ctrlaltdel]

I said in the other thread that it needs to be truly dynamically priced. A minimum price (say $10) but essentially no cap. Otherwise you just have paid FP system and they won’t necessarily be able to control the system as well as I assume they would want to. But perhaps they just want easy revenue. I think a system that is only between $10-$20 will be too low and will booked extremely quickly.

 

[ctrlaltdel]

I’m also interested to see if it is a fixed priced (with moderate changes based on date and anticipated demand) if it will be:
A. Pre-sold;
B. Available for purchase day of at a preset time before you even enter the park, or;
C. Sold immediately after you scan into a park.

 

[Touchdown]

Havoc if your claiming that universal overcharges during off season you can’t use peak pricing $100/15=7 rides. I’ve never visited UO when Spider-Man, Hulk, The three Potter rides, Despicable Me, Rip Ride Rockit and Mummy weren’t significantly shorter then standby.

 

[hopemax]

That only goes so far though, people who kept their job are spending their entertainment money from this year and last year. Eventually all the 2020 money will be spent and everyone will finally realize the inflation that has happened in travel, food, and home supplies. I continue to expect an economic downturn in the near future, P/E ratios are way out of wack on stocks, there is no where to go but down. I don’t think Disney is going to escape this one scot free like they did in 2008.

People are demonstrating a willingness to give up any other thing (besides basic shelter and food), before they give up their fun "escape." I don’t disagree that the costs for everything will go up, but people won't cut Disney vacations to cover for it. They'll pour more money into to it, to make up for the other ways they have fallen short. Other sectors are more likely to find themselves up a creek, like retail has been trending for years. Before people wanted the biggest tv and cable package. Now people would rather have an iPad and Disney+. Will people continue to prioritize home ownership, or will they just move in with Mom & Dad whose mortgage is way cheaper or maybe even already paid off, and they can provide childcare, and you can provide elder care, and everyone has more money for fun. Or maybe they can just have Mom & Dad's house, because they've moved into a townhome in a retirement community. Even if they want their own space, it will by necessity have to be small, which means no spending on the things that previous generations filled homes with. The spending categories that previous generations would have thought were necessities, priorities... will give way to "I will prioritize my life experiences." And Disney will be the beneficiary as long as they are king of the family entertainment category.