Dining with characters is done

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Slightly off topic, but not completely - two 8th graders were able to eat at The Good Turn and leave a tip without much of a thought about prices. We really felt like adults that day. I also recall walking around and we imagined all the high school and college age girls thinking of us as cute.

WDW food prices are nuts right now. I’ve done 6 family reunion trips with my DVC points over the last 20 years. The 7th and last one ever will be summer of 2022. Both sides of the family. All different income levels. I’m thinking of suggesting counter serve/use your room most of the time with one nice sit down in a park and one at a resort for the whole group. Lack of dining plan makes meals pleasantly optional. We’ll also have at least one day where I will cook a DVC kitchen feast for everyone.

I’m nostalgic/a sucker for Disney food...even today.

but they’re completely ripping people off...the “Disney upcharge” is like a 100% instead of the historical 25-50% now.

I won’t BS...that’s what’s happening. I’ll pay for it if it suits me...but I have no illusions.

 

[GimpYancIent]

Bingo...they’re a ripoff cattle call in Orlando BECAUSE of the characters...

No matter how much your ecv begs for mercy...it’s not like they’re losing money charging you $45 for breakfast or $60.00 for dinner...

The food quality “ain’t that great” anymore

Bring on the characters! The perceived value is in the experience not the culinary quality of what you stuff into your mouth or the currency you shell out. I find Queen Grimhilda very easy on the eyes and distracting from what is on the plate.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Absolutely not. Disney in the 90s made a big push to improve food quality. They hired Dieter Hannig, who gave restaurants a lot of autonomy in creating menus, sourcing ingredients and trying to allow each restaurant to offer their own unique experience. Guests were happy to pay high premiums, if the quality was deserving. With the advent of the DDP, they completely got rid of this entire mindset. Guests pre-paid for their food and Disney was charging astronomical prices for the plans. This led to three key changes:

1) Drive up the cost to justify to the rubes buying the plan that it was a worthwhile investment ($60 character buffet is joke).
2) Cut back on quality since these people paid for their food in advance
3) Drastically reduce menus to reduce prep time, which allowed for volume over quality.

It now became, basically, cruise ship dining across property. You force restaurants to homogenize menus and service offerings (only two restaurants on property now bake their own bread vs many before, for example) to meet what they company is already buying.

Obviously there's some variance, especially at signature places but overall the restaurant offerings at WDW are far more expensive and of a drastically inferior quality than they were pre-dining plan. No longer are there 10-12 entree choices, there's 5-6. Buffets for example used to offer actual prime rib, but because that was too expensive to serve people who had already paid for their meal, they switched to much cheaper cuts. After a 10 year hiatus I visited Chef Mickey's just prior to COVID, I was shocked at what they were calling food. Gone were the homemade restaurant-specific recipes (the parmesan mashed potatoes they used to serve were heaven), in was the defrosted Sysco stuff.

Another stupid anecdotal example is I remember one F&B exec bragging in an employee communiqué about how proud they were to have trimmed the type of French fries served at Disney restaurants from 11 to 2. Previously you could find a great variety (curly fries, shoestring, etc). Personally I loved the seasoned fries at Flame Tree. Now it's the same thing at every restaurant basically, with only a few limited exceptions. It's a minor example but goes to this cruise ship mentality.

Hannig left Disney in 2009, conveniently around when the dining plan was rolled out. Here's an article about the changes he brought, which went out the window when DDP came into being:

Dieter Hannig leaving Walt Disney World Co. - Scott Joseph Orlando Restaurant Guide

Dieter Hannig, who is credited with changing the face of restaurants and dining at Walt Disney World as the vice president of the food and beverage division,

www.scottjosephorlando.com

fantastic summary. Bravo.

this is the truth...it’s a stark contrast in management style. Bob was great...afterall. Evil Michael = bad. Bob = fantastic - “take my money”!!

The thing that really stuck out to me (and I screamed about it...not here though) during the 2006-2015 period was the “shell game” of it all.

1. roll intro good deal plan - strip it down after.

2. raise menu prices to make dining plan “a steal”

3. raise dining plan price.

4. repeat steps 2 and 3 every year.

5. streamline/cost cut the kitchens the entire time.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Bring on the characters! The perceived value is in the experience not the culinary quality of what you stuff into your mouth or the currency you shell out. I find Queen Grimhilda very easy on the eyes and distracting from what is on the plate.

you know you my pet peeve on this (joke aside)

“experience” has become the equivalent of what the pick pocket says to you right after they bump into you...

sausage is sausage.
a ride is a ride
A ticket is a ticket.

it’s not “unique”...it’s a meat market

 

[pixargal]

We began staying onsite at WDW during the late 90s with friends and family while the kids were young. We were younger parents with not a lot of extra spending money, but during each trip would we would try one of the nice restaurants on property. We’d leave the kids at the kids club so it was an adults only meal. We had some fantastic meals. This was before the dining plan. Fast forward to today. Kids are grown and we have more discretionary money, but no longer get excited about trying new restaurants because the value is not there. The food is okay, but not worth the cost they charging.

 

[George]

I’m nostalgic/a sucker for Disney food...even today.

but they’re completely ripping people off...the “Disney upcharge” is like a 100% instead of the historical 25-50% now.

I won’t BS...that’s what’s happening. I’ll pay for it if it suits me...but I have no illusions.

Dittos. Just my nuclear family this July at the Poly. I’ve got to get my Tonga toast, poolside Dole Whip, etc. We’re actually not setting foot in a Disney theme park this time. I’m less of a sucker every time a strawberry swirl, Figaro fries, or cinnamon roll bites the dust.

 

[Dutch Inn '76]

Dittos. Just my nuclear family this July at the Poly. I’ve got to get my Tonga toast, poolside Dole Whip, etc. We’re actually not setting foot in a Disney theme park this time. I’m less of a sucker every time a strawberry swirl, Figaro fries, or cinnamon roll bites the dust.

Dude. If you're looking for the Polynesian vibe without the "sucker" feeling of a theme park, save some money and go to the Koa Kea on Kauai. It's a loads better resort than the Poly. ...and it's the real thing...

Kauai's Koa Kea Resort

 

[George]

Dude. If you're looking for the Polynesian vibe without the "sucker" feeling of a theme park, save some money and go to the Koa Kea on Kauai. It's a loads better resort than the Poly. ...and it's the real thing...

Kauai's Koa Kea Resort

We’re using DVC points for the room and using some pre Covid Uni tix bought through my wife’s work before they expire. But, I’m sure Hawaii is more authentic.

 

[pdude81]

It’s funny how misinformed this post truly was

Saw this thread up near the top of the recent list and laughed. Experience is diminished but the cost sure isn't! Since that's kind of the deal with every aspect of WDW right now, we have a couple more character meals coming up this month.

 

[HauntedPirate]

One can choose to believe that the DDP isn’t actually behind the lowering of food quality, homogenization, and reduced menu items while increasing the price astronomically at restaurants around WDW since it’s inception. One can also choose to believe the evidence right in front of their face and know that it is. DDP didn’t suddenly become “the devil”. It happened as soon as they removed the included gratuity without lowering the price, around year 3, I want to say? That was it. Game, set, match.

Anywho. I figure character dining is probably back at most locations before 1/1/22. Just my hunch.

 

[PuertoRekinSam]

3) Drastically reduce menus to reduce prep time, which allowed for volume over quality.

No longer are there 10-12 entree choices, there's 5-6.

So this is not a strictly “Disney” thing. I have worked in business consulting for over a decade now, and spent the first half of the 2010s with my primary focus being on the food service industry.
Now I realize that Disney and Vito’s Italiana are two very separate beast, but the thought is the same. Menus need to be streamlined from offering over 20 entrees to about 7. Maybe eight if you include a Chef’s selection or a signature house dish.
There are a few reasons for this.
1) for the customer, decision analysis is a very real thing. Too many options and they can’t decide. (For example asking your SO if they want “Italian or Curry” will get you a answer more quickly than asking ”where do you want to go for dinner?”)
2) (related to number 1) Choice regret. If the customer has too many options they may feel they made the wrong choice. Leading to an overall dissatisfaction of the experience. It’s funny how the consumer brain works like that.
3) prep time. As you mentioned with Disney. The less you have to prepare, the more you can churn out. Table Turn over is the key between being open next year and not for my clients.
4) consistency. When you have too many options, some don’t get chosen often enough, so when it’s time to make it again, will it be the same as it was before?
5) quality of ingredients. Yes I realize Disney has a much better table turn over rate than these little places in Baltimore county Maryland. So this might not be the same, But it doesn’t mean spoilage isn’t an issue. When you have too many options, it means to need to store too many options. This leads to frozen meat , canned vegetables, and as you mentioned mass produced bread.

when Disney brings in outside culinary talent, this is the mindset they are coming with. When you blend it with Disney’s cost saving tactics you are going to have reduced menus. It’s not dining plans fault(alone)

 

[GimpYancIent]

I must admit that I have never used the DDP never a thought in any plan to go to a Disney property. My decisions are about the menu, quality of food, service, ambiance and (yes) price. A meal is not better / higher quality simply because its more expensive, the name of the eatery or dress code. For the way I do Disney DDP is not on my radar. For me its about feeling really good about the experience and satisfied when I leave. the establishment.

 

[Master Yoda]

Correlation does not mean causation. Those changes also coincided with Disney's push into overdrive their effort to maximize per guest spending.

People who think restaurants would have continues a large selection of food made with quality ingredients, with lots of reservation availability last minute are kidding themselves.

The dining plan didn't cause any of it. It's just the tool Disney used to get where they planned to be one way or another.

You are correct about some things, but incorrect about the DDP and its effect on a restaurant's menu. The proliferation of the DDP is directly related to the homogenization of the menus and the "quality cap" seen in WDW restaurants. This does not come from an educated guess, feelings, or personal observation. It comes directly from a conversation I had with the owner of La Hacienda, Richard Debler.

He directly stated that the DDP absolutely dictates what is on the menu of any participating restaurant. Disney pays a fixed amount for a one credit TS meal. Because of this, a restaurant can't put better quality items on the menu without losing money anytime someone orders said item. He stated, "We can't put something like a good quality fillet on the menu without losing money becoming a signature restaurant."

Where you are correct is that eliminating the DDP would not guarantee that restaurants would suddenly provide a large, high quality menu. But as it is now, the DDP all but eliminates a restaurant's ability to increase the variety and quality of its menu.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

You are correct about some things, but incorrect about the DDP and its effect on a restaurant's menu. The proliferation of the DDP is directly related to the homogenization of the menus and the "quality cap" seen in WDW restaurants. This does not come from an educated guess, feelings, or personal observation. It comes directly from a conversation I had with the owner of La Hacienda, Richard Debler.

He directly stated that the DDP absolutely dictates what is on the menu of any participating restaurant. Disney pays a fixed amount for a one credit TS meal. Because of this, a restaurant can't put better quality items on the menu without losing money anytime someone orders said item. He stated, "We can't put something like a good quality fillet on the menu without losing money becoming a signature restaurant."

Where you are correct is that eliminating the DDP would not guarantee that restaurants would suddenly provide a large, high quality menu. But as it is now, the DDP all but eliminates a restaurant's ability to increase the variety and quality of its menu.

That only applies to the third party owned-and-operated restaurants, though.

The general manager at a Disney-owned restaurant gets credit on his P&L for the menu price of items ordered as if everyone paid with cash. The delta is made up for "off the books" of the individual restaurant in an account similar to breakage.

 

[Master Yoda]

That only applies to the third party owned-and-operated restaurants, though.

The general manager at a Disney-owned restaurant gets credit on his P&L for the menu price of items ordered as if everyone paid with cash. The delta is made up for "off the books" of the individual restaurant in an account similar to breakage.

One would think that they would eliminate the amount of breakage as much as possible so they still are not going to put high quality 32 oz rib-eye on the menu of a one credit restaurant.

Eliminate the DDP and what is on the menu would be much more directly linked to the typical market demands. (eg a 32 oz rib eye for $80 might never get ordered and would be dropped, but a $40 8 oz fillet would survive.)

 

[Parker in NYC]

As to buffets in general, when is Boma reopening? I have my vaccine, I’m safe. Bring on the watermelon rind salad.

 

[nickys]

As to buffets in general, when is Boma reopening? I have my vaccine, I’m safe. Bring on the watermelon rind salad.

Boma will re-open when AKL re-opens.

And yes, I know the DVC rooms are open there but they are a fraction of the total number of rooms. Until the resort re-opens for regular guests there is little chance they staff Boma and Jiko.

 

[Dutch Inn '76]

So this is not a strictly “Disney” thing. I have worked in business consulting for over a decade now, and spent the first half of the 2010s with my primary focus being on the food service industry.
Now I realize that Disney and Vito’s Italiana are two very separate beast, but the thought is the same. Menus need to be streamlined from offering over 20 entrees to about 7. Maybe eight if you include a Chef’s selection or a signature house dish.
There are a few reasons for this.
1) for the customer, decision analysis is a very real thing. Too many options and they can’t decide. (For example asking your SO if they want “Italian or Curry” will get you a answer more quickly than asking ”where do you want to go for dinner?”)
2) (related to number 1) Choice regret. If the customer has too many options they may feel they made the wrong choice. Leading to an overall dissatisfaction of the experience. It’s funny how the consumer brain works like that.
3) prep time. As you mentioned with Disney. The less you have to prepare, the more you can churn out. Table Turn over is the key between being open next year and not for my clients.
4) consistency. When you have too many options, some don’t get chosen often enough, so when it’s time to make it again, will it be the same as it was before?
5) quality of ingredients. Yes I realize Disney has a much better table turn over rate than these little places in Baltimore county Maryland. So this might not be the same, But it doesn’t mean spoilage isn’t an issue. When you have too many options, it means to need to store too many options. This leads to frozen meat , canned vegetables, and as you mentioned mass produced bread.

when Disney brings in outside culinary talent, this is the mindset they are coming with. When you blend it with Disney’s cost saving tactics you are going to have reduced menus. It’s not dining plans fault(alone)

Excellent points. I don't like to eat at Cheesecake Factory simply because their menu is too stinking long!

 

[GimpYancIent]

Excellent points. I don't like to eat at Cheesecake Factory simply because their menu is too stinking long!

What! Well, I am a cheesecake fanatic and the laundry list of cheesecake they have is outstanding and the rest of their food menu also. The thought of the place makes me hungry. I personally know a few other people with a similar addiction, so I know its not just me.

 

[Dutch Inn '76]

What! Well, I am a cheesecake fanatic and the laundry list of cheesecake they have is outstanding and the rest of their food menu also. The thought of the place makes me hungry. I personally know a few other people with a similar addiction, so I know its not just me.

The long list of CHEESECAKE is awesome. The long *lists* of food are not.