Did another DVC meeting

captainkidd

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I've been looking at resales, but it comes down to this:

If I buy around 250 points, it's not enough.
If I buy 500 points, it's enough, but the cost is insane, especially with the dues.
 

tjkraz

Active Member
If so, resale definitely sounds like the way to go, or, possibly buying one of the older contracts. Problem with those is, you can only buy what's available, which may not suit our yearly needs.

On this point, I'll add that you could do a combination of direct and resale purchases. Let's say you find a resale for 350 points which suits your needs. Once that has closed you could either keep an eye open for a second contract for roughly 81 points or just buy the 81 direct from DVC. As long as you buy the same Home Resort and Use Year, owning multiple contracts is no different than a single contract.

As for the rest of the post, for the most part I agree with the numbers. When DVC speaks of break-even timeframes they are surely going to mention the comparison which is most favorable to them and that's the rack rate. Disney doesn't like rentals. Rentals take money out of their pockets by undercutting the established rates. But if you're comfortable renting, your numbers are largely sound.

Just a few things I would add:

1. I believe DVC's current promo is that for every 100 points you buy, you get 10 points "free." You still have to pay dues on the points and they are deeded points which you own for the duration. But in your case you could pay the $135 price on 400 points and walk away with 440.

2. When it comes to renting vs. owning, you may want to give some consideration to member perks which you may not be able to take advantage of as a renter. The most obvious one is the Annual pass discount. At $150 savings per pass, a family of 4 who owns DVC will save $600 with each set of passes purchased. The downside is that there's no guarantee the perk will continue indefinitely but 20 years we could be looking back at $12,000 in unrealized savings.

3. Owning gives you an element of control you'll never have with renting. As an owner, I can go online now and book a spur-of-the-moment trip. I can create wait lists if my preferred resort is not available. I can punch in different dates, resorts and rooms to see exactly what is available. I have complete control of the reservation. I don't have to worry about working through someone else to add view requests, dining plans, Magical Express bookings or other features to my reservation. I don't have to worry about my trip being impacted by the actions of a third party (even if inadvertent.)

(Last year there was an ongoing drama in DVC circles over a previously reliable renter who filed for bankruptcy and had his points foreclosed. The situation left dozens of non-members--who had paid to rent from him--uncertain as to the status of their trips.)

4. Resale prices will change the numbers dramatically.

5. Regarding the comments about additional restrictions being applied to resale owners, unfortunately that is a possibility. The current restriction is no non-DVC bookings by resale owners. Those non-DVC bookings should be categorized more as "perks" rather than "contractual rights." And since they are perks, Disney can adjust at their own whim.

The only real guarantee with DVC is that you'll get the accommodations commensurate to the number of points owned.

6. Most (all?) buyers realize that there is some period over which they will be paying more for DVC than for other options. But what they look forward to is the point when costs go down dramatically. In your case that may not come until year 24. But if you decide not to buy, just hope you aren't kicking yourself in years 24-45. ;)

7. The DVC contract IS an asset which can be sold at a future date if no longer needed. If you should get to year 15 and decide the points are no longer needed, the current resale marketplace suggests you'll get a five-figure return on the contract.

Here is my recommendation: Rework the numbers with most of the points purchased resale. And don't just look at the break-even point; run the numbers out for the full 45 years and see what DVC could potentially save you. And do it with the realization that you could still sell the contract at any time if necessary.

You've already said what buying direct will cost over 10 years or so. What will a resale purchase cost over 45 years and how does that compare to the cost of renting over the same period?
 

tjkraz

Active Member
Here's my quick back-of-a-napkin math:

Renting: $4500 x 45 years = $202,500

Resale purchase: 431 points x $70 per point = $27,090
$5.31 dues x 431 x 45 years = $105,120

Total for resale = $132,210

So buying resale saves $70,000 over the course of the contract. And that's not taking into account any perks granted to members but not renters. That's not taking into account the lack of control or flexibility involved in a rental.

Can't use the points anymore? Sell. You'll get money back on the sale and the dues obligation ends.
 

captainkidd

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Here's my quick back-of-a-napkin math:

Renting: $4500 x 45 years = $202,500

Resale purchase: 431 points x $70 per point = $27,090
$5.31 dues x 431 x 45 years = $105,120

Total for resale = $132,210

So buying resale saves $70,000 over the course of the contract. And that's not taking into account any perks granted to members but not renters. That's not taking into account the lack of control or flexibility involved in a rental.

Can't use the points anymore? Sell. You'll get money back on the sale and the dues obligation ends.

Those numbers aren't right though. First off, the purchase price would be $30,170. Second, the only places I'd be interested in buying are Boardwalk and WL, which would only be for 30 years.

So, that 30 years of renting is now $135,000.

To be fair, the price I've seen for WL is around $65 per point. So, 431 points x $65 per point = $28,015. WL dues are $5.61 per point x 431 points = $2,418 x 30 years = $72,540. So, now we're at $100,555.

Two very important things you're forgetting about:

-I paid $12 per point for July. I only paid $8 per point in January.
-That $28,015 doesn't include finance charges. At 5 years, add on another $6,000. At 10 years, add on another $16,000.

What this math (by both of us) shows is that even resale can be a close call. If you buy directly through Disney right now at $135 per point, unless you're paying 100% up front and not financing at all, it's not a very good deal. At least, not NEARLY as good as Disney wants you to believe.
 

dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
The numbers about paying for itself in 7 years, those are mostly true if you don't need to finance, and plan wisely. Otherwise almost all calculations will be closer to the 20 year mark. Which sounds inline with your numbers, at 20ish years. Resale will definitely knock this down a bit. And I still get daily emails on new DVC contracts for sale, I'd wager a hundred or so get listed a week. Most of the resale agents will work with you to try to find something that meets your needs, and may even help knock down the price more if its not perfect.

If you buy DVC resale, the 2 restrictions currently in place are you can not use your points for a cruise or for Adventures by Disney.

DVC also claims that they have the right to change other stipulations after you have bought resale, but I think that's a load of crap. I can't see how legally they could do that.

Yeah it seems a little fishy. If you sign a contract even a resell contract they can't change it after the fact. Whatever your contract says is legally binding.

I guess this is their way of swaying you to buy directly form them but sometimes the resell market is the best and smartest idea. Honestly though if I'm not using my points for Disney related things in 50 years then I wouldn't want to buy it now anyways so I guess that is why I wouldn't do resell but of course I would only be buying in at 150 points.

I believe the way they were able to do this is that exchanging points for a cruise of AbD isn't in the contract. It is a "perk" for being a DVC member. Or something to that affect. By owning the points, DVC is letting you change them out. And this give them their out. Your contract only includes so many rights. Other things (like dining discounts and AP discounts) are perks that are not included in the contract and can change at any time.

My parents owned a quarter share at a ski resort timeshare. (Every 4th week) This timeshare had equivalent units built at 5 or 6 other ski resorts. Much the same way that DVC has units at multiple locations. All of these resorts were owned by the same corporation. They had the ability to so reservations spur of the moment called "space available". Basically if the units were less than 85% booked, they would let you stay the night for the cost of housekeeping. (Like $29 for the first night, fourth night etc, and $11 for each other night). You could do this at any of the 6 resorts. However, the corporation ran into money troubles, and had to sell off all the properties. The owners still each had their respective quarter shares, and could still do "space available" but only at the resort they owned. Same deal. The timeshare contract only covered the actual time at the resort. The perks were offered by management as a plus. When the management/ownership changed they no longer had to offer that.
 

tjkraz

Active Member
Those numbers aren't right though. First off, the purchase price would be $30,170. Second, the only places I'd be interested in buying are Boardwalk and WL, which would only be for 30 years.

OK, I'm out. Sorry but the numbers and scenarios keep changing too much for me to even keep up. Until now I could swear I was reading a post about a 45-year AKV purchase. :rolleyes:

Sounds like not buying is the best decision for you and your family. Take care.
 

slappy magoo

Well-Known Member
2 points I've made before, so take 'em with a grain of salt or leave 'em...
1: If you can arrange your trips wisely (taking one trip 11.5 months after the preceding one), you'll be able to save 100 or 125 off each annual pass, and not have to pay for your tickets the next year, which will also factor in to what you save. Even if you normally buy annual passes, you're talking about saving 4-500 every 2 years if you're a family of four.
2: You can still buy fewer points now from a resale, "try it out" and see if it works for you. If it does, you can choose to buy more points, either from resale again or direct from Disney. If it works "OK" for you, you can opt to just keep those points and bank-and/or-borrow as necessary to maximize the use of them, and then either vacation somewhere else those off years or rent other people's DVC points or just take advantage of any WDW promotion they have at that time.

And let me add one more thing - even if you don't have an annual pass, DVC members can now pay for the Tables in Wonderland card, so instead of doing the dining plan, you can just get 20% off all table meals, including alcohol. Depending on the size of your family and how often you like to a sit-down meal and how much anyone in your family likes to imbibe, that's savings you would not have received without being a DVC member (unless you normally get annual passes). And if, like the annual pass, you manage to go 2 times within a 365-day period, you're paying once and using it for two trips. It's not unreasonable to think, between the AP discount and the dining discount, you can get not-insignificant savings.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Your math seems about right. The hard part of comparing vs renting points is there is not a lot of data out there on historic increases on rental point costs. There is some history on dues increases and cash rates to do the analysis. I have to assume that rental points will go up as dues go up, but there seems to be a wide spread between sellers. Some of the big online shops are at $13 a point but Disboards has some as low as $10 and even $8 or $9 on occasion.

We bought into BLT through a reputable reseller for $94 a point. They were selling for $145 at the time through Disney and are now at $165. If not for resale the math would not have worked for me. Saved about $8,000 ($11,000+ now at $165/pt). Unless you plan on trading in a lot for cruises and/or adventure vacations there is no economic justification for paying the Disney direct rates. Some people just fear dealing with a third party, but that is a steep premium to pay in my opinion. One thing to consider is the financing. I have heard from some that Disney offers good financing options. Not sure about resale since we bought with cash.

431 points is a ton. You must be going more than 1 time a year or staying really long (I am jealous either way). One option you could consider is buying half the points you need and continuing to rent the rest. After you have the first half paid off you could buy the rest if the prices are still right and you still go as much.

I have noticed in my 6 months or so following the resale market before I bought in that the lower point contracts sold quicker and generally for a little more (especially the 50 point add ons). 300+ point contracts didn't move very often (of course there are a lot fewer to start with so that could factor in). This is a good thing when buying, but if decide to sell could be an issue. I am not an expert at all and only observed the market for about 6 months last summer/fall so it is a small sample size but something to consider.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
(personal suspicion with these numbers: most resales are baloney: they are launched by the seller to trigger ROFR).

Just out of curiosity is this based on some personal experience and/or people you know trying to buy resale and missing out due to ROFR? I haven't heard very many people who bought resale mention issues with ROFR. It just keeps you honest when making an offer and prevents low ball offers from being accepted. Not trying to pick a fight and I am not telling you that you did anything wrong buying direct through Disney but I noticed you mentioned this on your other thread too. It seems a little misleading to someone who is trying to decide if there are no facts to back it up.
 

captainkidd

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
3) Rack rate at the Lodge for 2013 is now about $3100 for an 8 night stay.

Just wanted to point out, that you could stay 8 nights in a studio at the lodge renting points for about $1,300 based on what current point rentals cost. Even a 1 bedroom will only run you about $2,400, and that's on the pricey side ($12 per point.) I stayed 7 nights in January at a 1 bedroom villa at the Lodge for $1,632. Now granted, that's a very low cost, but if you can search out the deals, they are out there.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
The following sites include ROFR data:

http://www.mouseowners.com/info/showentry.php?e=131

http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=45231752&postcount=2836

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2529191&page=12

With the exception of Old Key West, the vast majority of DVC contracts are passing ROFR in 2012.

Separately, I analyzed data from 2008. Things were much different then with less than 60% of the contracts passing ROFR. It appears that Disney is not as aggressive with ROFR as it once was.

Interesting. I wonder if they are less aggressive since they have so much new inventory to sell? Since they bumped BLT to $165 I wonder if Grand Floridian will start at that price and go up from there. By the time they build at the Poly it will be $200+ per point.
 

captainkidd

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I recently purchased a BWV resale for $55/point, it's my favorite resort. The toughest part was finding the right property (points, price/point, Use Year, and resort) and then waiting the approximate 2 months for the contract to be signed, pass ROFR, close, and have Disney activate my membership. Now we are all set and have already booked our first 2 DVC vacations thru Disney!:)

30 years is a very long time. I can go on a lot of vacations in 30 years.;)

Everything you said is exactly right. If you can find the right price point at the resort you want, and the right amount of points, you're golden. I think for me it just doesn't work because I'd need so many points. Technically, to cover all my nights per year, I'd need around 635 points. Dues alone every year would cost me close to $4,000. I can buy a house 10 minutes from Disney for that kind of money.
 

captainkidd

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Interesting. I wonder if they are less aggressive since they have so much new inventory to sell? Since they bumped BLT to $165 I wonder if Grand Floridian will start at that price and go up from there. By the time they build at the Poly it will be $200+ per point.

BLT is $165 per point?????? Holy moly. When I heard $135 per point I nearly lost my lunch. No WAY would I pay $165 per point. I'm sorry to insult anyone, but if you pay that much....Well, I don't know. Doesn't sound like a good deal to me.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Just wanted to point out, that you could stay 8 nights in a studio at the lodge renting points for about $1,300 based on what current point rentals cost. Even a 1 bedroom will only run you about $2,400, and that's on the pricey side ($12 per point.) I stayed 7 nights in January at a 1 bedroom villa at the Lodge for $1,632. Now granted, that's a very low cost, but if you can search out the deals, they are out there.

Wow. That has to be 200+ points even in value season. Did you get them for $8 per point? Disboards? This is the one aspect that really made me think hard about buying. For me it came down to laziness mostly. I just book online and forget about it. In your case the dollars are 3X as much so I can see where you are struggling. You can't guarantee those deals will always be out there, but when they are it is hard to justify the cost of buying.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Yeah. I got an email telling me to buy before some date in July when the price was going up to $165. I think they are mostly sold out so if someone really, really wants in at BLT and doesn't know about resale they would pay it. I guess that's the theory. I also think GF will go on sale soon so they wanted to set the BLT price higher in anticipation. Just my theory.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
With DVC resales selling for significantly less than Disney’s direct purchase price, an understandable question is: why doesn’t Disney ROFR all contracts? The reason is financial: it’s more profitable for Disney to build DVC units than to purchase & resale existing units.

It’s been suggested (sorry I don’t have the link for this) that it costs Disney about $35-$40 per point to build new DVC properties. All WDW DVC properties sell for above this on the resale market. In addition, old DVC resorts sell for significantly less than newer resorts. Prices for Bay Lake Tower ($165/point) and Animal Kingdom Villas ($135/point) are significantly higher than the Beach Club and Boardwalk Villas ($115/point), Saratoga Springs ($110/point), Wilderness Lodge ($102/point), or Old Key West ($100/point). Rumor is the price for the new DVC at the Grand Floridian will be even higher. Doing the math, it’s apparent that Disney makes a lot more money building than reselling.

From Disney perspective, there’s also the advantage of having more people locked into Disney vacations. The more DVC resorts built, the greater the number of people who are “forced” to vacation at WDW every year (or deal with renting their points so that someone else vacations at WDW;) ). People who purchase a DVC, either direct or thru resale, are going to buy more theme park tickets, more food, more merchandise.

There’s a market for older DVC properties and Disney is more than willing to sell to people who want to purchase directly from Disney. However, direct purchase demand for “old” resorts is not as strong as “new” resorts.

Taken together, it’s easy to see that Disney’s biggest money is made by building DVCs, not by reselling existing ones.

Makes sense. I wonder if this will change when the contracts get closer to expiry. When we get within 10 years of 2042 the resale price should drop pretty low on the resorts whose contracts are up. I wonder in Disney would sweep in then and buy back as many as possible once the resale drops below the cost to add more. I think they probably want to maintain some minimum price point overall which is probably why the OKW points get picked up in ROFR first. They tend to be among the cheapest on property.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
I just hope WDW is still around and viewed as a major vacation destination in 2042. 30 years is a long time in the vacation industry. MK has been there for 40 years but by 2042, MK will be 70 years old. (DL is getting close.) Let's hope WDW is able to maintain it's reputation as a premium resort.
No worries. If it slips enough they'll just give it a $1billion upgrade like DCA.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom