DHS Makeover - What we know so far.....

[dizda]

Any news on the door coaster? Jim Hill still thinks it is happening.

Yes, but Jim is also still waiting for the Equatorial Africa pavilion to open in World Showcase.

 

[RSoxNo1]

It feels (to me) and was, cheap. The only reason for its existence at all was as a cost saving alternative to their other plans (Pixie Hollow, etc.). Recycle the tents, light overlay on Barnstormer, a (ugh) water play area....

I'll agree that the added spinner is a capacity boost, but it's at the expense of its former iconic location and was done in part as a test case for the NextGen queue system.

Yawn.

I don't think relocating Dumbo was a problem. The "iconic position" is a bit of a stretch.

 

[RSoxNo1]

Yes, but Jim is also still waiting for the Equatorial Africa pavilion to open in World Showcase.

Let's not pretend this is something that Jim made up. This was announced by Disney. It's like saying Jim was lying for talking about Hyperion Wharf or Flamingo Crossings.

 

[truecoat]

The logical problem with either Carsland or Monstropolis is that the proposed rides for both lands (RSR and Door Coaster, respectively) would each have a height requirement of at least 40". In a park with only two rides that are 100% family friendly (GMR and Toy Story Mania), I just don't see them giving a green light on a land without a people eating family ride, especially since they'll have just finished building four attractions that will almost definitely have height requirements. Cars would need a brand new ride from scratch, and Monstropolis would have to have something akin to Ride and Go Seek at the least. What are they going to do to rectify the inevitable problem caused by families with small children visiting the park?

As far as RSR goes, the version supposedly headed for DHS wouldn't be anything close to a 40" requirement.

 

[truecoat]

im curious what the cost was for the other Toy Story Playlands and what the new Toy Story Land will cost?

im assuming the DHS version will be roughly 500 million

Not sure where you're spending the other 350 million.

 

[dizda]

Let's not pretend this is something that Jim made up. This was announced by Disney. It's like saying Jim was lying for talking about Hyperion Wharf or Flamingo Crossings.

I never said that Jim made anything up. Disney also announced an African (and Spain and other) pavilions in Epcot, too, but those never got built either. My point was that just because a concept has been announced and Jim thinks it will happen does not make it a certainty. Jim has been right a lot, but he has also been wrong. Pointing that out is not calling somebody a liar. It is saying that you have to take predictions with a grain of salt.

 

[RSoxNo1]

I never said that Jim made anything up. Disney also announced an African (and Spain and other) pavilions in Epcot, too, but those never got built either. My point was that just because a concept has been announced and Jim thinks it will happen does not make it a certainty. Jim has been right a lot, but he has also been wrong. Pointing that out is not calling somebody a liar. It is saying that you have to take predictions with a grain of salt.

Right, but it's a bit different when it's something Disney has announced vs. a rumor that a writer puts out there. That's my objection.

 

[Phroobar]

So with all this talk of Pixie Hollow, are you guys expecting a Slave Leia m&g or something? Because that's totally not happening…

Many not with the MOM Squad at WDW but at Disneyland? Hell YES it is happening!

 

[dizda]

Right, but it's a bit different when it's something Disney has announced vs. a rumor that a writer puts out there. That's my objection.

I do not deny that Disney made an announcement, but what I was saying is that Disney has a history of announcing attractions and then not building them. Disney may make an announcement and credible people may believe that it will happen, but until construction actually starts, you have no guarantee. The door coaster may very well happen, and the fact that Disney could pair it with a clone of Ride and Go Seek and save some development costs on a new land may make that more likely. However, I still do not think that it is done deal.

 

[Next Big Thing]

Mine Ride for the M&G yes, but I would have also liked Pixie Hollow to have stayed. We really wouldn't have lost much of value from Story Book Circus and it would have added an additional ride to the land.

Personally I wasn't a fan of the concept, so i'm sort of glad it didn't come. The land is still temporary enough to eventually put something immersive here someday.

 

[ford91exploder]

For me, the thing that's far more worrisome for the future of DHS isn't Storybook Circus/New Fantasyland's low budget or low ambition. It's this weird feeling I get that's hard to articulate. It's like no one with any creative authority was actually trying to make an emotional connection with guests, resulting in a whole area that's curiously bland. It's definitely possible to achieve something awesome within budget constraints if you're creative enough, and clearly they had budget for some things - Little Mermaid, Seven Dwarfs, at least. The problem with these lands isn't that they were constrained, it's that they don't seem to be even trying to maximize awesomeness within those constraints.

I think about Walt's involvement in the early days of Disneyland, and how so many of the decisions boiled down to "Walt thinks this is going to be awesome." Even if they had to do things on a shoestring, there was at least somebody with authority trying to maximize excitement and emotional impact. Was there anyone serving that role in these newer areas? Someone sitting in on meetings, getting people excited, saying, "Hey, you know what would be really cool?" Except for possibly Be Our Guest and some theming here and there, it sure doesn't feel like it.

I don't know. Maybe I'm being too cynical. Maybe there was a spokesperson-for-awesome in all the meetings, saying things like:

"You know what would be awesome? Retheming Barnstormer to be a circus... plane... thing!"
"You know what would be awesome? Gliding by brief scenes from The Little Mermaid in a clamshell!"
"You know what would be awesome? If we moved Dumbo from over here to over there."
"You know what would be awesome? What if we let guests ride a mine car through that one song from Snow White and Seven Dwarfs? Everyone loves that one song, right?"

But I kinda doubt it.

I think what you are looking for is NFL feels formulaic, As in we will just throw these elements in here because it fits the 'Disney Fantasy' formula. NFL is pretty but it's obvious that no one loves it like Joe Rohde loves AK as a result it's just a mismash of elements thrown together randomly, Example being the wall in the middle of an expanse of pavers. (is it a stroller brake??? ?) The cringeworthy forced perspective of Beasts Castle. I could go on but one gets the picture I hope.

 

[Lee]

I don't think relocating Dumbo was a problem. The "iconic position" is a bit of a stretch.

I don't think it's a stretch.
Dumbo's location was part of its charm. Spinning in the castle courtyard with great views of the castle, carousel and (in a simpler time) a beautiful lagoon was an iconic Disney experience for kids, and some adults.

The same spin with the stirring vista of the circus...ugh.

 

[wdisney9000]

For me, the thing that's far more worrisome for the future of DHS isn't Storybook Circus/New Fantasyland's low budget or low ambition. It's this weird feeling I get that's hard to articulate. It's like no one with any creative authority was actually trying to make an emotional connection with guests, resulting in a whole area that's curiously bland. It's definitely possible to achieve something awesome within budget constraints if you're creative enough, and clearly they had budget for some things - Little Mermaid, Seven Dwarfs, at least. The problem with these lands isn't that they were constrained, it's that they don't seem to be even trying to maximize awesomeness within those constraints.

I think about Walt's involvement in the early days of Disneyland, and how so many of the decisions boiled down to "Walt thinks this is going to be awesome." Even if they had to do things on a shoestring, there was at least somebody with authority trying to maximize excitement and emotional impact. Was there anyone serving that role in these newer areas? Someone sitting in on meetings, getting people excited, saying, "Hey, you know what would be really cool?" Except for possibly Be Our Guest and some theming here and there, it sure doesn't feel like it.

I don't know. Maybe I'm being too cynical. Maybe there was a spokesperson-for-awesome in all the meetings, saying things like:

"You know what would be awesome? Retheming Barnstormer to be a circus... plane... thing!"
"You know what would be awesome? Gliding by brief scenes from The Little Mermaid in a clamshell!"
"You know what would be awesome? If we moved Dumbo from over here to over there."
"You know what would be awesome? What if we let guests ride a mine car through that one song from Snow White and Seven Dwarfs? Everyone loves that one song, right?"

But I kinda doubt it.

Last night my wife and I watched part 1 of the PBS special they ran on Walt Disney. When talking about Snow White, it explained how Walt was attempting to make an animated film so emotional that it could make a person cry. He wanted to make a person cry as a result of a cartoon drawing dying! His devotion to evoking the emotional response from the audience was THE driving force behind changing the landscape of animated films forever. It wasnt about the money, it was about the challenge.

Disneyland was the same type of challenge and once again, he changed the game forever. I dont think that type of mindset exists or is even allowed to exist within the company anymore. Its like what @ford91exploder said, they seem to just follow a formula now. X (theme/setting of movie) + Y (popular song) + A (scenes from movie) = what Walt did. They completely ignore the emotional appeal (at least at the level Walt cared for) and rely solely upon the appeal of the movie they are making an attraction for to create the emotion.

 

[Bocabear]

Walt himself gave up on a circus theme when it did not work at Disneyland... Not sure why it was picked up for the Magic Kingdom. Yes! they did a beautiful job with it and has many lovely details but as a whole it fails to impress and still looks temporary somehow...Maybe the nature of the tents... This area would have made a beautiful Arendelle or even better a completely reimagined Never Neverland with a newer bigger Peter Pan's Flight , Pirate ship, Pixie Hollow...Something more engaging than circus tent Meet & Greets and a water play station...
.

 

[Chris82]

Walt himself gave up on a circus theme when it did not work at Disneyland... Not sure why it was picked up for the Magic Kingdom. Yes! they did a beautiful job with it and has many lovely details but as a whole it fails to impress and still looks temporary somehow...Maybe the nature of the tents... This area would have made a beautiful Arendelle or even better a completely reimagined Never Neverland with a newer bigger Peter Pan's Flight , Pirate ship, Pixie Hollow...Something more engaging than circus tent Meet & Greets and a water play station...
.

Tents is definitely a thing. Check out Passport2Dream's #1 Magic Kingdom Design Blunder at this blog post... http://passport2dreams.blogspot.com/2015/08/ten-big-design-blunders-at-magic-kingdom.html

 

[DisDan]

Walt himself gave up on a circus theme when it did not work at Disneyland... Not sure why it was picked up for the Magic Kingdom. Yes! they did a beautiful job with it and has many lovely details but as a whole it fails to impress and still looks temporary somehow...Maybe the nature of the tents... This area would have made a beautiful Arendelle or even better a completely reimagined Never Neverland with a newer bigger Peter Pan's Flight , Pirate ship, Pixie Hollow...Something more engaging than circus tent Meet & Greets and a water play station...
.

What you described about Never Never Land + Pixie Hollow is brilliant! Re-imagine Peter Pan add in a more kid friendly Fairies Ride + suped up M&G for both the Pan characters and Fairies and maybe even dedicate an area for Jake (for the tots).

 

[wdisney9000]

Walt himself gave up on a circus theme when it did not work at Disneyland... Not sure why it was picked up for the Magic Kingdom. Yes! they did a beautiful job with it and has many lovely details but as a whole it fails to impress and still looks temporary somehow...Maybe the nature of the tents... This area would have made a beautiful Arendelle or even better a completely reimagined Never Neverland with a newer bigger Peter Pan's Flight , Pirate ship, Pixie Hollow...Something more engaging than circus tent Meet & Greets and a water play station...
.

Is it because they knew it was the least amount of work they could do that would satisfy the average (new breed) of guest? Or even because they knew their would be an army of fans who would defend its mediocrity simply because, "its Disney!"?

Why build anything on the level that MK deserves for an expansion when you can cheap it up because you have been conditioning guests for years to lower their standards of what true themed entertainment can be, and dare I say you dont actually need an IP in every attracton...GASP!

 

[Phroobar]

Is it because they knew it was the least amount of work they could do that would satisfy the average (new breed) of guest? Or even because they knew their would be an army of fans who would defend its mediocrity simply because, "its Disney!"?

Why build anything on the level that MK deserves for an expansion when you can cheap it up because you have been conditioning guests for years to lower their standards of what true themed entertainment can be, and dare I say you dont actually need an IP in every attracton...GASP!

As long as people are packing the park, why spend money to improve? It just cuts into profits.

 

[ford91exploder]

What you described about Never Never Land + Pixie Hollow is brilliant! Re-imagine Peter Pan add in a more kid friendly Fairies Ride + suped up M&G for both the Pan characters and Fairies and maybe even dedicate an area for Jake (for the tots).

Yes I agree that would have been an AMAZING experience if TWDC had the vision to actually DO it. Sadly they did not.

 

[ford91exploder]

As long as people are packing the park, why spend money to improve? It just cuts into profits.

Unfortunately that's exactly the mindset at work, It of course forgets the fact that you need to have something for the next few years, Eisner in the Wells days recognized this and continued to invest even when profits from WDW were at levels seen only at universal these days.