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Defunctland deep dive on Fastpass

Dear Prudence

Well-Known Member
There is no reason why that needed to be nearly 2 hours. I had to bail before it ended, but I didn't dislike it. It could have been two episodes.

It's now also listed as an actual docu on Letterboxd.
 

tagoofy

Active Member
Hopefully not too soon to sum up for those that don't want to watch...

The original FP paper system (or electronic equiv in Disneyland) actually did improve the experience for a bulk of people, was manageable by cast members, and based on the work of an actual process engineer who knew what he was doing. Every attempt to "improve" the system since then has been based more on the ideas from people that did not really know what they were doing (from an process engineering perspective) and only made things worse for the bulk of people.

The video and data matches the experience and thinking of me and my Chem Eng daughter and make sense (at least to me and her).

My conclusion (perhaps implied but not explicit in the video), Go back to the old original FP system (perhaps enhanced with some tech, but still in concept the same), or dump it (FP, FP+, Genie+, etc) altogether. I say this even thou I liked the FP+ system, eventually, but then I was on the far right hand side of the FP+ users graph of experiences per day so was in the 99.99... percentile of people that actually DID benefit from FP+, but agree that is not a good reason to keep it (but will still miss being able to grab 20+ "E-ticket" FP in a day 😢).
 

the.dreamfinder

Well-Known Member
There is no reason why that needed to be nearly 2 hours. I had to bail before it ended, but I didn't dislike it. It could have been two episodes.

It's now also listed as an actual docu on Letterboxd.
It’s an essay, spoken aloud. There’s really no reason why it needed to be a video beyond Defunctland’s business model as a YouTube channel. Plus, you can insert more ads into longer videos.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
My conclusion (perhaps implied but not explicit in the video), Go back to the old original FP system (perhaps enhanced with some tech, but still in concept the same), or dump it (FP, FP+, Genie+, etc) altogether.

The challenge with the 'go back to OG FP' is it doesn't cope with the attendance increases since FP v1 was around. Part of what kept demand lower was the no-digital access to the system along with the lower attendance. Today people would expect digital retrieval (and Disney wouldn't want to bring back the FP machine upkeep costs) so that plus the attendance which we know Disney won't reduce... means even OG FP is basically doomed right now as well... in terms of keeping availability for people to see the most in-demand attractions.

And going back to FP v1 would undo the 'load distribution' that later versions steered guests to other attractions... so demand again rises at the most popular attractions.

There is no real solution as long as demand outstrips supply as much as it does now. not everyone can play. Disney really needs to encourage more distractions - parks like dhs are just not able to handle these crowds with only short attractions.

the reduction of shows and loss of the tour really crunches dhs more than the other parks
 

Jrb1979

Well-Known Member
The challenge with the 'go back to OG FP' is it doesn't cope with the attendance increases since FP v1 was around. Part of what kept demand lower was the no-digital access to the system along with the lower attendance. Today people would expect digital retrieval (and Disney wouldn't want to bring back the FP machine upkeep costs) so that plus the attendance which we know Disney won't reduce... means even OG FP is basically doomed right now as well... in terms of keeping availability for people to see the most in-demand attractions.

And going back to FP v1 would undo the 'load distribution' that later versions steered guests to other attractions... so demand again rises at the most popular attractions.

There is no real solution as long as demand outstrips supply as much as it does now. not everyone can play. Disney really needs to encourage more distractions - parks like dhs are just not able to handle these crowds with only short attractions.

the reduction of shows and loss of the tour really crunches dhs more than the other parks
Agree with most of what you said. I disagree with their being no real solution. More distractions isn't going to change how little availability there is There is one and it's by copying how every other park uses the skip the line system. They need to cap the amount of Genie+ available. Less people that have it the better the system works.

For some reason when ever that idea is mentioned people hate it. Just. cause FP+ was available to everyone means its best to keep it that way.
 

SoFloMagic

Well-Known Member
Just watched this. The one thing I struggle with is that it didnt seem the model actually matched animal kingdom. maybe I missed something, but I think it presented it as having 7 rides. If memory serves, AK also had 3 shows, bug movie, a meet and greet, and a nighttime show on FP+? And a tired system too, which would change the habits of the guests.

It would seem to me that this would fundamentally change the model. I know there was a point about FP+ spreading demand, but the tiers also squashed demand for headliner FP because you had to use two other fastpasses.

Anyway not the end of the world and still a great video, but this bugged me a bit.
 

rct247

Well-Known Member
It is a fantastic video. My only nit-pick is the ratios were off a bit.

When you look at this full and detailed explanation at the issue(s) at hand here, it's easy to see it's a very VERY complex situation. There are other factors and trends that are worth noting that have affected the other Disney theme park experience in this same time frame that makes the situation of lines that much worse. They touched on attendance and knowledge, but there are a few more:
  • Prices - Prices have gone up a lot on everything in the mid-90s.
  • Societal Norms - Guests are less patient, more vocal, less polite, and expect more from Disney based on the magic that has been marketed for decades. Attraction preferences have changed; people are less satisfied with shows and walkthroughs. Even the fact that there are more Guests visiting with mobility issues resulting in more frequent slowdowns has affected thru put.
  • Technology - Attractions are far more technologically advanced with more systems monitoring things resulting in more downtimes. Technology has changed Guest knowledge, but not equally.
  • Shrinking Off-Season - Since the 80s and 90s, the "off-season" has shrunk down to really only a couple weeks a year if that. Marketing, events, deals, and books/blogs have changed this.
  • Capacity Reductions - New attractions that replace older attractions are often not replacing the same capacities. In some cases, we even go backwards with losing experiences. Here is everything (not including parades and nighttime spectaculars) since 1999.
Additions to CapacityRemovals to CapacityAdded But RemovedReplacements & Capacity Changes
  • Kali River Rapids
  • Maharajah Jungle Trek
  • Rock 'n' Roller Coaster
  • Carpets of Aladdin
  • TriceraTop Spin
  • Walt Disney Presents
  • Turtle Talk
  • Soarin'
  • Expedition Everest
  • Jedi Training
  • Toy Story Mania!
  • Wild Africa Trek
  • Enchanted Tales
  • Under the Sea
  • Seven Dwarfs Mine Train
  • Flight of Passage
  • Na'vi River Journey
  • Alien Swirling Saucers
  • Slinky Dog Dash
  • Lightning McQueen
  • Falcon
  • Rise of Resistance
  • Remy's Ratatouille
  • Skyway
  • Mike Fink Keel Boats
  • Food Rocks
  • Body Wars
  • Cranium Command
  • The Making of Me
  • Pocahontas & Friends
  • Innoventions
  • Honey, I Shrunk... Playset
  • Backlot Tour
  • Alien Encounter / Stitch
  • Millennium Village
  • Who Wants to be a Mill...
  • Primeval Whirl
  • Lights, Motors, Action!
  • Journey into Narnia
  • Legend of Captain Jack...
  • Sorcerer's of the MK
  • Superstar TV / Doug / American Idol / Frozen Sing-Along
  • Mr. Toad / Pooh
  • Imagination I, II, & III
  • Lion King / PhilharMagic
  • Horizons / Mission Space
  • Wonder / Reflections China
  • Seas / Seas with Nemo
  • Tarzan Rocks / Nemo
  • Timekeeper / Laugh Floor
  • Rio Tiempo / Gran Fiesta
  • Audience / EO / Pixar Short
  • Toontown / 2nd Dumbo
  • Star Tours I / Star Tours II
  • Test Track I / Test Track II
  • Snow White / Fairytale Hall
  • Dangerous / Jedi / Mickey
  • Maelstrom / Frozen
  • Animation / Launch Bay
  • Energy / Guardians
  • GMR / MMRR
  • Circle of Life / Awesome
  • O Canada / Canada F&W
  • Impressions / B&B Sing

That doesn't take into account any temporary COVID closures and some may view additions like TSL and SWGE as replacements for LMA/Backlot,Honey.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
More distractions isn't going to change how little availability there is

That's exactly what a 'distraction' in this context is... something else to do besides that big 'most popular attraction'. Be it shows, activities, other attractions. If someone isn't chomping at the bit to do rideX because they are interested in somethingY... the pressure on rideX's availability is reduced.

There is one and it's by copying how every other park uses the skip the line system. They need to cap the amount of Genie+ available. Less people that have it the better the system works.

Then you just have the RoTR issue where 80% miss out and complain. Making it work but just for a small subset won't fly. Because even though you maybe positioning it as 'something optional' -- the whole reason people want line skips in the first place still exists.

If the park is miserable for 80% of the people.. the fact that 20% had a good experience won't keep the ship afloat.

You don't need 100% of people having the best experience.. but you do need a high percentage of people satisified. And in the current conditions, standby alone isn't going to cut it during busy periods.

Disney fundamentally needs to fix their supply vs demand issues to improve the guest experience.

Rather than 'cap the amount of genie' - they could cap the number of guests! But we know that's not gonna happen, so they are going to have to pump up their rosters, or face a customer base that is more and more disenchanted with Disney because of their own stuffing behaviors.
 

UNCgolf

Well-Known Member
Just watched this. The one thing I struggle with is that it didnt seem the model actually matched animal kingdom. maybe I missed something, but I think it presented it as having 7 rides. If memory serves, AK also had 3 shows, bug movie, a meet and greet, and a nighttime show on FP+? And a tired system too, which would change the habits of the guests.

It would seem to me that this would fundamentally change the model. I know there was a point about FP+ spreading demand, but the tiers also squashed demand for headliner FP because you had to use two other fastpasses.

Anyway not the end of the world and still a great video, but this bugged me a bit.

There were 10 attractions in the AK model.

Not sure what 10 they used, but since they based it off actual data from a specific day (don't remember what day), it could have been a time when Primeval Whirl wasn't operating (it was only operating seasonally prior to the permanent closure). I also think you can throw out the night time show. I don't think the night time show works in the context of the model since there are no standby waits throughout the day; it only runs once at a set time.

I'm guessing it was Flight of Passage, Navi River Journey, Kiliminjaro Safari, Expedition Everest, Kali River Rapids, Dinosaur, Finding Nemo, Festival of the Lion King, the meet and greet, and the bug movie. If Primeval Whirl was included, then either the meet and greet or the bug movie were dropped -- I'd guess the bug movie.
 
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flynnibus

Premium Member
Prices - Prices have gone up a lot on everything in the mid-90s.

For who? Guests or Disney? Price inflation should put pressure on demand, but it hasn't due to Disney's successful past, their brand, and image
Attraction preferences have changed; people are less satisfied with shows and walkthroughs.

Nah - things like national parks are more crowded than ever. Things like RV parks are full everywhere (even before covid). Guests are more demanding of attractions (see the hate on TLM) but I wouldn't say they are less satisfied with shows and walkthroughs. Even junk like the stuff they put in for star wars launch bay at DHS did well for what it was.

I believe a part of this 'taste' concern is the problem is Disney has built the image of everyone being a park commando and doing as much as they can. Gotta do it all.. everyone wants instant satisfaction so they can move onto the next thing and get even more! Disney stopped being a vacation and instead became a gotta do it all pokemon hunt. Disney stopped being 'something for everyone' and became 'everyone do everything'. Putting everyone on a schedule breeds the mindset of 'gotta get this done because we have somewhere to be!'.

  • Shrinking Off-Season - Since the 80s and 90s, the "off-season" has shrunk down to really only a couple weeks a year if that. Marketing, events, deals, and books/blogs have changed this.
  • Capacity Reductions - New attractions that replace older attractions are often not replacing the same capacities. In some cases, we even go backwards with losing experiences. Here is everything (not including parades and nighttime spectaculars) since 1999.

Both these I would put under consequences directly caused by Disney's own choices. Off-season is gone because Disney generated demand with their events. Capacity reductions are often because of Disney's management of how many attractions they want to keep - and of course when new experiences have a fraction of the demand soak ability the removed stuff had.. obvious outcome.

I think (?) you are trying to say the results here aren't SOLEY due to FP variants - which is a valid statement... but also many of these 'environment' things are by Disney's doing.. and attraction design and park design are both within Disney's hands and of course intrinsicly tied to the topic because they are the supply side of the equation. The video didn't dedicate much mindshare to the idea of reduction of capacity because I think rightfully so.. the topic of queuing and the models will still hold true as long as we stay away from the messy edges.
 

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