D23 Dissapointment

[Tim_4]

It doesn't matter. None of this is even what I was talking about. All I said was that Disney Springs was relatively inexpensive. I'm not sure how I became the defender of Disney's pace of expansion.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

DAK's "dollar" budget is pretty set. Now it's about the creatives getting in what they can within that budget. If the night show doesn't come to fruition, it's more likely because the E-ticket went over budget than the overall allocation getting slashed.

Agree. We've seen an initial budget for a large project before, and then something gets cut as the construction date approaches and the cost goes up. Things do get shooved to the backburner.

 

[bubbles1812]

DAK's "dollar" budget is pretty set. Now it's about the creatives getting in what they can within that budget. If the night show doesn't come to fruition, it's more likely because the E-ticket went over budget than the overall allocation getting slashed.

There is truth in your last sentence as I've certainly been told that same thing. But, at the same time, you do say "pretty set," which isn't a 100% absolute thing. Not saying you wrong or trying to be annoying, but even "pretty set" budgets can change. It's Disney. And they tend to waver a bit on big budget spending.

 

[Tim_4]

Agree. We've seen an initial budget for a large project before, and then something gets cut as the construction date approaches and the cost goes up. Things do get shooved to the backburner.

But it's always the "pencil-pushers" and "bean counters" and "TDO" who get blamed. The budgets are generally set long in advance and are rarely cut. It's WDI's fault if they can't do what they're supposed to do with the dollars they agreed to.

 

[bubbles1812]

It doesn't matter. None of this is even what I was talking about. All I said was that Disney Springs was relatively inexpensive. I'm not sure how I became the defender of Disney's pace of expansion.

Because you are the only one that defends it... Ok maybe you and Pixiedust (that isnt a good thing). Everyone else thinks Disney moves slower than a dying snail.

 

[Tim_4]

Because you are the only one that defends it.

As a fan/guest, it drives me bonkers. But I believe it's deliberate and done on purpose rather than as a function of incompetence. Maybe they're WRONG for doing it on purpose, I don't know, but I think it's misguided for those who say they're so slow because they're INCAPABLE of moving quickly.

 

[Gabe1]

Disney Springs is relatively inexpensive compared to what's going into DAK and what's being discussed for DHS. It also fills distinct needs for locals and international visitors. Domestic guests probably view the expansion less favorably than those two groups.

I said DAK, not DHS. Avatar was announced almost two years ago. The timeline has always been 2017 and still is 2017. The budget is somewhere in between Fantasyland and DCA expansion.

All I said was that Disney Springs is relatively inexpensive and then you started going after me with attitude about a phantom resort (?). Did I offend you in some way when I said:

Yeah, I know Avatar was announced long, long ago and yes, it will be a long, long time if ever by the time Disney gets that Puppy online. But look up at your post, my question is what Disney announced for DHS, I missed that, what is going in there?

 

[Gabe1]

As a fan/guest, it drives me bonkers. But I believe it's deliberate and done on purpose rather than as a function of incompetence. Maybe they're WRONG for doing it on purpose, I don't know, but I think it's misguided for those who say they're so slow because they're INCAPABLE of moving quickly.

So you are saying Disney, deliberately announced Avatar some 2 years ago and is deliberately holding off on building it and delaying Avatar's opening to 2016-2017? To what end?

 

[Tim_4]

Yeah, I know Avatar was announced long, long ago and yes, it will be a long, long time if ever by the time Disney gets that Puppy online. But look up at your post, my question is what Disney announced for DHS, I missed that, what is going in there?

That's not the post you had quoted. The post you had quoted made no reference to DHS.

Um. What?

You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Sorry to be so blunt but it's well established that DAK has been firmly greenlit with a substantial budget. Do some reading before you pick up the snark.

I haven't the foggiest idea what's going on at DHS, other than SOMETHING is going on at DHS.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

Because you are the only one that defends it... Ok maybe you and Pixiedust (that isnt a good thing). Everyone else thinks Disney moves slower than a dying snail.

It's not a matter of defending Disney. They are completing NFL, and working on Avatarland. It's not like they aren't investing in WDW.

To be fair, the disgruntled-CM's rumors were like the Mad Hatter on cocaine . . . Carsland and StarWarsland and a pixar ride while we tear down a ton of stuff in DHS, forget about Osbourne Lights, Muppets are gone, Muppets are not gone, StarWarsland will have less attractions, there will be a StarWars e-ticket, more meet and greets . . .

Wow. All DCA got was a new "skin" for Sunshine Plaza, and Carthay is new, and Carsland on a parking lot where'd they'd plan to put something anyway!

 

[Gabe1]

DAK's "dollar" budget is pretty set. Now it's about the creatives getting in what they can within that budget. If the night show doesn't come to fruition, it's more likely because the E-ticket went over budget than the overall allocation getting slashed.

What is the budget? What is being built?

 

[Tim_4]

So you are saying Disney, deliberately announced Avatar some 2 years ago and is deliberately holding off on building it and delaying Avatar's opening to 2016-2017? To what end?

Spreading capital investment and cash outflow. Investors have been expecting a "cool down" in capital spend after the $5B spree of Dream, Fantasy, NextGen, DCA, and Fantasyland.

The Avatar announcement was a business announcement that was more about a partnership between Disney and Cameron than about "Avatarland at DAK." The fan/promotional announcement hasn't happened yet.

 

[bubbles1812]

As a fan/guest, it drives me bonkers. But I believe it's deliberate and done on purpose rather than as a function of incompetence. Maybe they're WRONG for doing it on purpose, I don't know, but I think it's misguided for those who say they're so slow because they're INCAPABLE of moving quickly.

Woah now. We agree on another thing? That's twice in one week! Careful now, if we start agreeing on more things, how can we continue our delightfully argumentative discussions?

I do actually agree. I think WDI/Disney is fully capable of moving faster. I've never doubted it. But I think there terribly slow development and building strategies are just that, terrible. I get wanting to spread out costs over multiple years but for instance, I think their ridiculously drawn out reveal of NFE over multiple years effectively neutered any real impact NFE could have had. Telling me this piece will open now, that piece will open later, and that other piece opens even later doesn't make me want to return faster. It's just highly annoying.

As to the question of incompetence... I wouldn't say WDI is incompetent, but sometimes they certainly can't see the forest thru the trees. They focus on tiny when sometimes we need some big picture focus. Just my feelings.

 

[Tim_4]

What is the budget? What is being built?

There's a thread for that.

 

[Gabe1]

There's a thread for that.

Hey, your the authority, spill.

 

[Tim_4]

Woah now. We agree on another thing? That's twice in one week! Careful now, if we start agreeing on more things, how can we continue our delightfully argumentative discussions?

I could always bring up MagicBands. (Honestly though, I'm so damn sick of MagicBand conversations that I'm purposely avoiding those threads from here on out. Avatar is reaching that point too.)

 

[Gabe1]

That's not the post you had quoted. The post you had quoted made no reference to DHS.

I haven't the foggiest idea what's going on at DHS, other than SOMETHING is going on at DHS.

So you quoted my post about Springs and you brought DHS into your post 'cause you didn't have the foggiest idea of what going on at DHS??? Purpose then?

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

As a fan/guest, it drives me bonkers. But I believe it's deliberate and done on purpose rather than as a function of incompetence. Maybe they're WRONG for doing it on purpose, I don't know, but I think it's misguided for those who say they're so slow because they're INCAPABLE of moving quickly.

The timing for the Avatar announcement is certainly suspect. It happened at time when buying up intellectual properties was all the rage, Uni opened Potterland in June 2010. A year and change later in September 2011 Disney announces Avatarland. Some assumed it was a sort of shot at Uni, whenever writers mentioned Potterland, they would also likely mention that disney was working on an Avatarland. James Cameron was aproached in spring of 2011 about the project.

In terms of how these dances go, it usually takes a lot longer than half a year to get a major outside producer to commit to a project at Disney. There was a lot more dancing with George Lucas, and I would think Cameron is as hard to work with than Lucas, if not harder.

Iger gets something like $30 million a year. He'll be gone eventually, moving on to politics to become the mayor of New York or something. It isn't like back in the day with Roy telling Walt that the company could go bankrupt with one false move. Nobody is wringing their hands worrying that Uni will cost them their jobs. Heck, some of them might consider a higher position at Universal.

I think Iger saw money being made at Potterland, and also his ego was bruised a bit considering the company lost J.K. Rowlings . . . so he kinda kinda decided to play Walt and get Avatar locked up. This also prevented others from wooing Cameron. After Avatar, Uni was indeed in the market for more IP, with the whole LOTR thing.

Mind you, Iger later bought up Star Wars after a lengthy negotiation with Lucas. Avatar could well have been the kick in the booty that Lucas needed. He might not like seeing Avatar getting a whole land when much more popular/prolific StarWars has just a single ride.

So, yes, I think the whole Avatar thing was half-baked from the beginning. A kick in the pooty to Lucas, a move to put Disney into the IP buying game, getting off the bench when Uni got J.K. Rowling after Disney bungled it. They needed to get their mojo back.

It should be noted that at the September 2011 Avatarland announcement, Iger was already in negotiations with Lucas . . . and shortly before the deal with George was inked, somebody leaked Avatarland concept art.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

I think their ridiculously drawn out reveal of NFE over multiple years effectively neutered any real impact NFE could have had. Telling me this piece will open now, that piece will open later, and that other piece opens even later doesn't make me want to return faster. It's just highly annoying.

NFL will be open for decades to come and will draw in millions of guests, and how guests respond to it, in terms of wanting to return, maybe years later with their kids, will be based on the merits of this land. I don't think that 20 years from now people are going to be saying that NFL was a failure because it didn't open all at once. I don't think anybody will remember.

BVS opened before Carsland, didn't seem to hurt Carsland much. I get that you're frustrated that you can't ride 7DMT because it hasn't been finished, but for the vast majority of average guests . . . I don't think the longterm impact is there.

 

[Pixiedustmaker]

] I think WDI/Disney is fully capable of moving faster. I've never doubted it.

I don't think that difficulty working with creative super powers, like Cameron, qualifies as WDI not being capable of moving quickly. WDI sure has been busy if you look at the entire range of projects being worked on.

Let it not be forgotten that WDI butted heads with J. K. Rowlings, and she left because of disagreements which perhaps her ego wouldn't let her move past . . . that experience helped her when she took a second shot at it with Universal, no doubt in my mind. Universal had been looking at doing a Potterland for a long time as well . . .