Crunching the numbers...

[captainkidd]

I know anyone can buy AP's and TiW. I didn't say it was part of DVC, I said I consider it part of my DVC perks. I consider it all part of the package because I get a great DVC discount on the AP and I would never buy an AP unless I was assured of several visits a year, which DVC provides. Hence without DVC, living in North Carolina, I wouldn't get an AP and wouldn't get the room discounts when I go without DVC.

DVC leads to better discounts which leads to more visits, which is exactly the cycle WDW is trying to perpetuate. Once I have the DVC the AP seems logical. Once I have the AP four days in a discount room is a cheap get away, because I'm getting in the parks free. Of course I'm eating at restaurants and buying t-shirts and dish towels and mugs, but it seems like I'm only spending 70 bucks or so a night.

I'm being manipulated, but I'm OK with it. In fact I love it.

And all of that is pertinent to someone looking to buy into DVC, because it really becomes a the more you buy the bigger the savings situation. They need to understand they are buying into a vacation lifestyle not just a timeshare.

I don't see how DVC leads to any more visits per year than not owning. If you go for weekends at a time, you still have to get there. And if you're only using so many points to stay for a few nights at a time, than you would only be spending so much money out of picket for the same.

I don't agree with "the more you buy, the more you save". Perhaps if you're wealthy and don't have to finance. Plus, more points just means higher dues.

I've been an AP holder for man years without DVC. I get it because I spend about 20-25 days at the parks each year and the TiW card is a huge savings.

 

[stlbobby]

I don't see how DVC leads to any more visits per year than not owning. If you go for weekends at a time, you still have to get there. And if you're only using so many points to stay for a few nights at a time, than you would only be spending so much money out of picket for the same.

I don't agree with "the more you buy, the more you save". Perhaps if you're wealthy and don't have to finance. Plus, more points just means higher dues.

I've been an AP holder for man years without DVC. I get it because I spend about 20-25 days at the parks each year and the TiW card is a huge savings.

What I said was that for me it is all part of a package, and I think that applies to many people.

When I go for an extra couple of days and use my AP, the price per day of my AP goes down. It becomes a better deal. The more times I use my TiW the more money I have saved. None of those things would be possible for me, if I didn't have the assurance of a minimum number of days through DVC, and I think that applies to a lot of people, and might provide an insight for the OP.

I never said anything about buying more points. I discussed using my AP discount on a room for a few nights, an AP discount I wouldn't have if I weren't a DVC member. Buy adding on those four days a couple of times a year for at a really good rate my average spent per vacation day drops. The more I spend the more I save.

I'm not making up some wild theory here. This is essentially WDW's marketing plan for customers like me and most anyone seriously considering DVC. They are willing to make a lower margin on the repeat customer because we account for so many days.

 

[captainkidd]

What I said was that for me it is all part of a package, and I think that applies to many people.

When I go for an extra couple of days and use my AP, the price per day of my AP goes down. It becomes a better deal. The more times I use my TiW the more money I have saved. None of those things would be possible for me, if I didn't have the assurance of a minimum number of days through DVC, and I think that applies to a lot of people, and might provide an insight for the OP.

I never said anything about buying more points. I discussed using my AP discount on a room for a few nights, an AP discount I wouldn't have if I weren't a DVC member. Buy adding on those four days a couple of times a year for at a really good rate my average spent per vacation day drops. The more I spend the more I save.

I'm not making up some wild theory here. This is essentially WDW's marketing plan for customers like me and most anyone seriously considering DVC. They are willing to make a lower margin on the repeat customer because we account for so many days.

How does that differ from a non DVC owner using their AP for a discount on a room, assuming they want to go through Disney as opposed to renting points?

 

[stlbobby]

How does that differ from a non DVC owner using their AP for a discount on a room, assuming they want to go through Disney as opposed to renting points?

It differs because the DVC owner is locked into and pre-paid for a certain number of nights/points per year. The owner knows they are going to be at WDW and the AP makes more sense. Additionally the AP is bought at a discount making it a better value and an easier decision from the beginning.

I know you are now going to start in about how many DVC owners sell or rent points and it doesn't apply. You are right it doesn't apply to them. And either they didn't consider their purchase carefully enough in the beginning, their economic situation changed, or they just got tired of Disney. Either way I was trying to impart to the OP that once you buy into DVC there are other expenses to consider, but often those expenses are coupled with opportunities for more discounts. They should consider all of that before they buy so they don't end up being one of the families trying to get rid of their points.

I never said my situation was the best. I never said DVC was the only way to go. In fact I said it was a vacation lifestyle choice. For some people it is worth it just to know they have years worth of Disney vacations ahead of them. For others it is repellent to be locked into WDW year after year no matter the monetary savings.

You have an agenda and are trying to prove your plan of renting points is better, and it probably is for you, but it isn't for everyone. Renting points puts you at the mercy of the supply and demand market. Points are plentiful and cheap now, because so many people are cutting back, but that may change, and as the price of points increases, as it does with each new development, the rental price will continue to rise. You don't benefit from the locked-in stable costs DVC owners can count on when they sign their contacts. That may work for you because you value the freedom and flexibility your choices give you.

I value the stability DVC gives me and that stability allows me to invest in other WDW perks, which lead to more perks. But it all leads back to the DVC. I would never buy an AP without DVC. I wouldn't have the opportunity to buy TiW or get AP room discounts. My WDW would be extremely different and greatly diminished if I wasn't a DVC member.

And I think that is a valuable insight for the OP and anyone else reading thinking about buying DVC.

 

[captainkidd]

It differs because the DVC owner is locked into and pre-paid for a certain number of nights/points per year. The owner knows they are going to be at WDW and the AP makes more sense. Additionally the AP is bought at a discount making it a better value and an easier decision from the beginning.

I know you are now going to start in about how many DVC owners sell or rent points and it doesn't apply. You are right it doesn't apply to them. And either they didn't consider their purchase carefully enough in the beginning, their economic situation changed, or they just got tired of Disney. Either way I was trying to impart to the OP that once you buy into DVC there are other expenses to consider, but often those expenses are coupled with opportunities for more discounts. They should consider all of that before they buy so they don't end up being one of the families trying to get rid of their points.

I never said my situation was the best. I never said DVC was the only way to go. In fact I said it was a vacation lifestyle choice. For some people it is worth it just to know they have years worth of Disney vacations ahead of them. For others it is repellent to be locked into WDW year after year no matter the monetary savings.

You have an agenda and are trying to prove your plan of renting points is better, and it probably is for you, but it isn't for everyone. Renting points puts you at the mercy of the supply and demand market. Points are plentiful and cheap now, because so many people are cutting back, but that may change, and as the price of points increases, as it does with each new development, the rental price will continue to rise. You don't benefit from the locked-in stable costs DVC owners can count on when they sign their contacts. That may work for you because you value the freedom and flexibility your choices give you.

I value the stability DVC gives me and that stability allows me to invest in other WDW perks, which lead to more perks. But it all leads back to the DVC. I would never buy an AP without DVC. I wouldn't have the opportunity to buy TiW or get AP room discounts. My WDW would be extremely different and greatly diminished if I wasn't a DVC member.

And I think that is a valuable insight for the OP and anyone else reading thinking about buying DVC.

I have no agenda and am not trying to prove that renting points is better. I'm simply at a loss to find the logic where a DVC owner thinks they have more flexibility to visit WDW than a non-owner. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Disney tries using that as a selling point, and it's ridiculous.

As far as rental prices continuing to rise, of course. And why do they? Because annual dues rise, something non-owners don't have to worry about.

 

[stlbobby]

I have no agenda and am not trying to prove that renting points is better. I'm simply at a loss to find the logic where a DVC owner thinks they have more flexibility to visit WDW than a non-owner. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Disney tries using that as a selling point, and it's ridiculous.

As far as rental prices continuing to rise, of course. And why do they? Because annual dues rise, something non-owners don't have to worry about.

Where did I say DVC owners have more flexibility? I don't think you are even reading my posts. I actually said the non-DVC member values the flexibility, while the DVC member values the stability.

The dues are really an insignificant part of the purchase and haven't risen drastically in the almost twenty years I've been a member. And you contradicted yourself in a single line. You claimed the rental rates rise because of the dues and then said the renter doesn't have to worry about the dues. Well by the first part of your statement you do have to worry about the dues.

In reality, the rental rates rise due to both supply and demand and the higher cost of buying points for the new properties.

 

[captainkidd]

Where did I say DVC owners have more flexibility? I don't think you are even reading my posts. I actually said the non-DVC member values the flexibility, while the DVC member values the stability.

The dues are really an insignificant part of the purchase and haven't risen drastically in the almost twenty years I've been a member. And you contradicted yourself in a single line. You claimed the rental rates rise because of the dues and then said the renter doesn't have to worry about the dues. Well by the first part of your statement you do have to worry about the dues.

In reality, the rental rates rise due to both supply and demand and the higher cost of buying points for the new properties.

Insignificant part? If I was to buy into DVC, the amount of points I'd need for my stay next July, dues would be close to $3,000 per year. What I meant was, non-DVC owners don't have to worry about them if heaven forbid something comes up and they can't afford to go.

I must have misunderstood you. It sounded like you were using the flexibility case. I'm so used to hearing it from DVC salespeople. My bad.

 

[Disneykidder]

Simply said...if you think it's a good fit for you and your family...buy it. If you don't think it will save you money and you're not interested in the perks, then don't.

The OP asked for a bit of advice...not for people to talk them out of it.

I may have been the one to mention how you can go whenever you want...thus flexibility (although I never used the word flexibility) but as I said, I am simply comparing DVC to other timeshares.

 

[stlbobby]

Insignificant part? If I was to buy into DVC, the amount of points I'd need for my stay next July, dues would be close to $3,000 per year. What I meant was, non-DVC owners don't have to worry about them if heaven forbid something comes up and they can't afford to go.

I must have misunderstood you. It sounded like you were using the flexibility case. I'm so used to hearing it from DVC salespeople. My bad.

The dues are insignificant when compared to the overall purchase price, just like HOA dues are insignificant when compared to the price of a condo or house.

 

[stlbobby]

Simply said...if you think it's a good fit for you and your family...buy it. If you don't think it will save you money and you're not interested in the perks, then don't.

The OP asked for a bit of advice...not for people to talk them out of it.

I may have been the one to mention how you can go whenever you want...thus flexibility (although I never used the word flexibility) but as I said, I am simply comparing DVC to other timeshares.

This is true. You do have flexibility when compared to other timeshares, a great deal in many cases, but you have less flexibility when compared with renting points or going direct through a resort. In that reguard it is the stability that is the advantage.

 

[captainkidd]

Simply said...if you think it's a good fit for you and your family...buy it. If you don't think it will save you money and you're not interested in the perks, then don't.

The OP asked for a bit of advice...not for people to talk them out of it.

I may have been the one to mention how you can go whenever you want...thus flexibility (although I never used the word flexibility) but as I said, I am simply comparing DVC to other timeshares.

I'm not trying to talk them out of it. I think DVC is a good deal if you can afford it. I just don't believe in covering up the things Disney doesn't tell you about. As someone who has looked extensively into DVC over the years, I like to make sure people take everything into account. Things that Disney says "For a 1 time purchase price, plus annual dues", people need to know what that means. Disney makes it sound like annual dues are chump change, and they're not. At the minimum, over 40 years an owner who has the minimum allotment of points available through Disney, will pay $33,600, and that's without the rise in cost.

I'm not trying to say anyone here is doing it, but I've seen it done many times. People try and justify a large purpose by ignoring some important details. Like buying a TV at Best Buy on your credit card and saying "We got a great deal - TV was only $1,500", but make no mention of the interest they're paying on the credit card.

 

[captainkidd]

The dues are insignificant when compared to the overall purchase price, just like HOA dues are insignificant when compared to the price of a condo or house.

That's absolutely 100% false. I'm surprised as a member you really believe that.

If you buy a 200 point contract at the current price of $160 per point at BLT, and don't finance it, your purchase price is $32,000. The dues, over 45 years, would be $38,000, and that doesn't include any increases. And last year, the dues at BLT rose by 8.4%.

I'll see if I can find the post, but I did the math out based on I believe a 350 point contract, and with the average rate at which dues increase each year, at the end of 45 years, I would have paid over $210,000 in dues.

 

[Disneykidder]

$33,600 for 40 years of vacationing doesn't sound too bad to me. Rack rates at these resorts are over $500 a night for a studio. That's $3500 for a week alone.

 

[captainkidd]

$33,600 for 40 years of vacationing doesn't sound too bad to me. Rack rates at these resorts are over $500 a night for a studio. That's $3500 for a week alone.

But that's not an accurate number. As I said above, dues rose last year at BLT by 8.4%. I'll do this out again. Let's say you want to go for 1 week every year in July and stay in a 1 bedroom villa at BLT.You would need say 300 points (based on view, it could be more or less. Your dues the first year would be $1,683.) Now, take that number and let's do what Disney claims, and raise the dues by 3.5% each year:

1683
1742
1802
1866
1931
1999
2069
2141
2216
2294
2374
2457
2543
2632
2724
2820
2918
3020
3126
3236

Let's stop there. We're at 20 years, and we've now spent $47,593 on annual dues, and we still have 20 years to go.

Now, is this going to be cheaper than staying in a 1 bedroom villa and paying Disney? ABSOLUTELY! But this is the part where Disney gets people. "Plus annual dues". It's not as simple and nice as Disney leads you to believe. You've got to do the math to truly see what you'll be spending.

 

[stlbobby]

That's absolutely 100% false. I'm surprised as a member you really believe that.

If you buy a 200 point contract at the current price of $160 per point at BLT, and don't finance it, your purchase price is $32,000. The dues, over 45 years, would be $38,000, and that doesn't include any increases. And last year, the dues at BLT rose by 8.4%.

I'll see if I can find the post, but I did the math out based on I believe a 350 point contract, and with the average rate at which dues increase each year, at the end of 45 years, I would have paid over $210,000 in dues.

Wow. 100% false. Even though you then go on to prove my point exactly. $38K over 45 years is less than a thousand dollars a year. Which is insignificant when talking about real estate contracts and vacations. This is proven more insignificant considering rooms go for hundreds of dollars a night.

The $210K number is pure speculation on a massive number of points. Again if you are looking at buying 350 points and actually spending that much time at WDW then $210K over 45 years is insignificant. You'll spend that on t-shirts.

 

[captainkidd]

Wow. 100% false. Even though you then go on to prove my point exactly. $38K over 45 years is less than a thousand dollars a year. Which is insignificant when talking about real estate contracts and vacations. This is proven more insignificant considering rooms go for hundreds of dollars a night.

The $210K number is pure speculation on a massive number of points. Again if you are looking at buying 350 points and actually spending that much time at WDW then $210K over 45 years is insignificant. You'll spend that on t-shirts.

We obviously have different ways of looking at things. I don't ignore things like dues and interest. No matter how you look at it, it's still money being spent. The bottom line is, dues will cost you more than the contract. I consider that significant.

If you're spending $210K on t-shirts at Disney in your life, then clearly you've got money to burn and none of this is even an issue for you.

And 350 points isn't that much. If you can only vacation in the summer, 350 points will get you about 10 nights per year at the Boardwalk, Beach Club or Wilderness Lodge.

 

[stlbobby]

But that's not an accurate number. As I said above, dues rose last year at BLT by 8.4%. I'll do this out again. Let's say you want to go for 1 week every year in July and stay in a 1 bedroom villa at BLT.You would need say 300 points (based on view, it could be more or less. Your dues the first year would be $1,683.) Now, take that number and let's do what Disney claims, and raise the dues by 3.5% each year:

1683
1742
1802
1866
1931
1999
2069
2141
2216
2294
2374
2457
2543
2632
2724
2820
2918
3020
3126
3236

Let's stop there. We're at 20 years, and we've now spent $47,593 on annual dues, and we still have 20 years to go.

Now, is this going to be cheaper than staying in a 1 bedroom villa and paying Disney? ABSOLUTELY! But this is the part where Disney gets people. "Plus annual dues". It's not as simple and nice as Disney leads you to believe. You've got to do the math to truly see what you'll be spending.

Clearly no agenda here.(sarcasm)

Obviously you are desperately trying to find a reason to justify not buying into DVC. Maybe that's the right decision for you maybe not, by the way your protesting I think your trying to convince somebody closer to you than on these boards, but you have to realize it's not the right decision for everyone.

The OP asked for advice and you have attacked the advice given by me and several others for no apparent reason other than to prove you are right.

What I will say 100% is DVC has been a great investment for me. It has saved me money and given me the opportunity to enjoy WDW in ways that would never have been possible if I hadn't been a member.

I hope anyone thinking about buying in will way all the pros and cons and hopefully some of the things I have posted will help them.

 

[captainkidd]

Clearly no agenda here.(sarcasm)

Obviously you are desperately trying to find a reason to justify not buying into DVC. Maybe that's the right decision for you maybe not, by the way your protesting I think your trying to convince somebody closer to you than on these boards, but you have to realize it's not the right decision for everyone.

The OP asked for advice and you have attacked the advice given by me and several others for no apparent reason other than to prove you are right.

What I will say 100% is DVC has been a great investment for me. It has saved me money and given me the opportunity to enjoy WDW in ways that would never have been possible if I hadn't been a member.

I hope anyone thinking about buying in will way all the pros and cons and hopefully some of the things I have posted will help them.

Why is it you think the cons I have listed have less merit than the pros you listed? I could say that you have an agenda trying to defend your purchase of DVC. I'm not "attacking" anybody's advice. I'm simply giving honest answers to offset the delusions some members (and Disney) creates. I'm someone (like many other people) who have found themselves in serious financial trouble at times in my life. The OP started a thread called "crunching the numbers". I'm crunching the numbers for them. They didn't ask for people to just post all the pixie dust feelings they have about DVC. How in the world is that going to help them?

As I stated (and have stated dozens of times), when you compare apples to apples, DVC is certainly a good deal. But you really need to "crunch the numbers", the real numbers, and see if you want to spend the amount of money that it will REALLY cost.

 

[stlbobby]

Why is it you think the cons I have listed have less merit than the pros you listed? I could say that you have an agenda trying to defend your purchase of DVC. I'm not "attacking" anybody's advice. I'm simply giving honest answers to offset the delusions some members (and Disney) creates. I'm someone (like many other people) who have found themselves in serious financial trouble at times in my life. The OP started a thread called "crunching the numbers". I'm crunching the numbers for them. They didn't ask for people to just post all the pixie dust feelings they have about DVC. How in the world is that going to help them?

As I stated (and have stated dozens of times), when you compare apples to apples, DVC is certainly a good deal. But you really need to "crunch the numbers", the real numbers, and see if you want to spend the amount of money that it will REALLY cost.

The difference is others have posted their general thoughts, while you have directly attacked what others are saying. You aren't offering cons. You are attacking the pros, and erroneously for the most part, and that is a very different proposition.

 

[captainkidd]

The difference is others have posted their general thoughts, while you have directly attacked what others are saying. You aren't offering cons. You are attacking the pros, and erroneously for the most part, and that is a very different proposition.

I'm not attacking anyone. I simply disagree with some of the info you (and 1 other poster) have provided. Don't be a hero. You're taking this way too personally.