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Craziest thing happened during Guardians pre-show on Saturday..

tissandtully

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Your original post was in 2024 , but the conversation restarted in 2025 has changed to guests pushing their way forward not opening doors.
Man, you really are doubling down on being wrong. But I guess you could argue it's about both things now, the new post this year mentioned being physically pushed towards the doors, so it's not the same as what you were saying to just "nothing can be done about it". There's real safety issues here and real problem guests.
 
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lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Maybe it’s just me, (I’ve never been on GotG), but I was always told that was the reason many of the other attractions doors opened INWARD so as to prevent guests from rushing the doors…that would seem to be a somewhat easy fix.
The direction of the door swing is based on the location of the space in relation to the exits and how many people are on each side of the door.
 

JIMINYCR

Well-Known Member
Man, you really are doubling down on being wrong. But I guess you could argue it's about both things now, the new post this year mentioned being physically pushed towards the doors, so it's not the same as what you were saying to just "nothing can be done about it". There's real safety issues here and real problem guests.
What do you propose they do? They have a mass gathering of people who want to jump ahead of everyone else as soon as those doors begin to open a crack. It happens at HM, TT, GoTG, Tron and all other attractions set up similarly. They need to empty that area so they can then fill it up with the next mass of guests waiting. A CM telling the crowd to form a single line and proceed under control isn't going to work. They want to get as close to the boarding area as possible and cut ahead of everyone else to get on the ride vehicle and ride.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
What do you propose they do? They have a mass gathering of people who want to jump ahead of everyone else as soon as those doors begin to open a crack. It happens at HM, TT, GoTG, Tron and all other attractions set up similarly. They need to empty that area so they can then fill it up with the next mass of guests waiting. A CM telling the crowd to form a single line and proceed under control isn't going to work. They want to get as close to the boarding area as possible and cut ahead of everyone else to get on the ride vehicle and ride.
They could stop using such setups in new attractions.
 

JIMINYCR

Well-Known Member
They could stop using such setups in new attractions.
That won't solve the issue. They have a need for an open area to have guests gather around to hear "set up" speils for the attraction. it needs a large area to hold a large number of guests all at once. The area then needs to empty out quickly to then reload the next group outside waiting. There's also a timing process to move guests forward towards the boarding area and keep things progressing.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
That won't solve the issue. They have a need for an open area to have guests gather around to hear "set up" speils for the attraction. it needs a large area to hold a large number of guests all at once. The area then needs to empty out quickly to then reload the next group outside waiting. There's also a timing process to move guests forward towards the boarding area and keep things progressing.
Just go read a few posts back and you’ll read an example of a park that maintains the queue in preshow rooms. You just have the queue in the room and tell people to fill it in.
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
The direction of the door swing is based on the location of the space in relation to the exits and how many people are on each side of the door.
The shows that I remember, TGMR, CBJ, Muppets, IItBaB & Monsters Inc. LF all have doors that open outward from the theater into the waiting queue area…I remember a CM telling me the reason for that was specifically to prevent guests from pushing the doors inwards to enter the the theaters…using the other reason (using the doors to exit in a fire emergency) makes perfect sense too.

And before someone makes a comment, YEAH, I KNOW not to take a CM’s reasoning as gospel, but both reasons are plausible to me.
 

SplashJacket

Well-Known Member
Just go read a few posts back and you’ll read an example of a park that maintains the queue in preshow rooms. You just have the queue in the room and tell people to fill it in.
You can’t have a queue in the Guardians preshow because the flow rate of a queue would be too low and would starve the attraction based on the duration of the preshow.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
You can’t have a queue in the Guardians preshow because the flow rate of a queue would be too low and would starve the attraction based on the duration of the preshow.
It would be no different than the open room. Doors open, fill the space, close doors and run the preshow. If anything, you’d gain a bit of efficiency as there’d be no having to tell people to “fill in all available space” because they’re trying to maintain the queue. There’d also be no waiting for people to sort out exiting.
 

JMcMahonEsq

Well-Known Member
It would be no different than the open room. Doors open, fill the space, close doors and run the preshow. If anything, you’d gain a bit of efficiency as there’d be no having to tell people to “fill in all available space” because they’re trying to maintain the queue. There’d also be no waiting for people to sort out exiting.
Of course it would be different. You would be going from an open waiting area room, to a defined que. That means building out the que limits in the waiting room, defining the structure of the que and creating the physical barriers that are going to be holding people in their spot in line, as opposed to it being currently an open unstructured room. By very definition you are going to be decreasing the available standing surface area of the pre-show room with whatever you are building in order to structure your que.

You would also need to create a funnel as the doors open, to lead people into the que, as opposed to just walking into the open room. The debate over what might be faster/more efficient would need to be modeled, my guess any time saving on people exiting the room is going to be offset by the new funneling of people into the que, but that's just a guess.

So while net effects based on however you structure the que can be debated, its certainly would be different.

Don't get me wrong, I actually really enjoy the concept of structured pre-show sequences. I love flight's methodology as at least subjectively to me it feels like the rides "line" ends and the "ride" begins as soon as we start the pre-show experience. I just think if you make the show room to much like just another section of line, you run the risk of loosing the pre-show experience.
 
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SplashJacket

Well-Known Member
It would be no different than the open room. Doors open, fill the space, close doors and run the preshow. If anything, you’d gain a bit of efficiency as there’d be no having to tell people to “fill in all available space” because they’re trying to maintain the queue. There’d also be no waiting for people to sort out exiting.
To get the density needed in a queue to fill the preshow would take several minutes. Then you start the preshow. Then preshow ends and it’ll take several minutes for people to flow out.

Genuinely, to put how infeasible that strategy is into perspective, it would probably cut the ride’s hourly capacity by over 50% because you’d be starving the attraction so heavily.

It’s a poorly designed preshow, because it wasn’t the preshow originally designed for the attraction, but the simple solutions suggested here are completely infeasible.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
To get the density needed in a queue to fill the preshow would take several minutes. Then you start the preshow. Then preshow ends and it’ll take several minutes for people to flow out.

Genuinely, to put how infeasible that strategy is into perspective, it would probably cut the ride’s hourly capacity by over 50% because you’d be starving the attraction so heavily.

It’s a poorly designed preshow, because it wasn’t the preshow originally designed for the attraction, but the simple solutions suggested here are completely infeasible.
They already fill the room from the queue. People would just walk right in as they already do, but with a clearer idea of where to go. It’s not going to somehow be slower because people are pulsed down a more defined path instead of going into an empty room.

There’s less exiting capacity because people would go through a single door, but the multiple doors results in people waiting as the queue is recreated. People would be able to again just move straight forward.

The idea that people would somehow move 50% slower because they’re in a defined line is just ridiculous. Having a different show wouldn’t change how people move through the space. The attraction isn’t alone in people trying to skip the preshow.
 

JMcMahonEsq

Well-Known Member
They already fill the room from the queue. People would just walk right in as they already do, but with a clearer idea of where to go. It’s not going to somehow be slower because people are pulsed down a more defined path instead of going into an empty room.

There’s less exiting capacity because people would go through a single door, but the multiple doors results in people waiting as the queue is recreated. People would be able to again just move straight forward.

The idea that people would somehow move 50% slower because they’re in a defined line is just ridiculous. Having a different show wouldn’t change how people move through the space. The attraction isn’t alone in people trying to skip the preshow.
How in the world do you think that its the same thing, walking into an unrestricted open space, vs going through a defined path, that would almost certainly have to be some form of back and forth path in order to "wrap" the line of people in some orderly and restricted fashion leading out and ending eventually to the exit door?
 

SplashJacket

Well-Known Member
They already fill the room from the queue. People would just walk right in as they already do, but with a clearer idea of where to go. It’s not going to somehow be slower because people are pulsed down a more defined path instead of going into an empty room.

There’s less exiting capacity because people would go through a single door, but the multiple doors results in people waiting as the queue is recreated. People would be able to again just move straight forward.

The idea that people would somehow move 50% slower because they’re in a defined line is just ridiculous. Having a different show wouldn’t change how people move through the space. The attraction isn’t alone in people trying to skip the preshow.
For some context on how your statement is missing the bigger picture, it can take some attractions over an hour after opening to fully settle into a filled line. For a preshow with a couple hundred people, that will take several minutes. Any queue has to be dense because the space for Guests is limited and determined by the preshow’s design, so you would need to wait the multiple minutes for a traditional queue to settle into the desired density. Then you run the preshow and it takes a while for Guests to filter out, so in the end, you’re taking some multiple longer to load and unload the preshow, severely starving the attraction.

Yelling at a mob to move in one block to fill all available space takes an absolute fraction of the time as it takes 200 people to react to a line moving in front of them and to actually fill all available space.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
For some context on how your statement is missing the bigger picture, it can take some attractions over an hour after opening to fully settle into a filled line. For a preshow with a couple hundred people, that will take several minutes. Any queue has to be dense because the space for Guests is limited and determined by the preshow’s design, so you would need to wait the multiple minutes for a traditional queue to settle into the desired density. Then you run the preshow and it takes a while for Guests to filter out, so in the end, you’re taking some multiple longer to load and unload the preshow, severely starving the attraction.

Yelling at a mob to move in one block to fill all available space takes an absolute fraction of the time as it takes 200 people to react to a line moving in front of them and to actually fill all available space.
If there aren’t enough people in the queue then there aren’t enough people in the queue.

This supposed huge drain on time already occurs and is part of the process. Filling up the preshow room requires people to move through the queue. If people can move through a queue before the preshow then that doesn’t change by suddenly going into a different room. It’s the same flow of people. You might have some slowdown with switchbacks if that decision is made, but queues aren’t laid out with a long stretch that matches the preshow occupant load. Look at something like Mickey and Minnie’s Runaway Railway where there are multiple pre shows and they’re still able to stage people in front of the doors, because the queue is keeping up. The big slowdown is the pulsed nature of a preshow.
 

SplashJacket

Well-Known Member
If there aren’t enough people in the queue then there aren’t enough people in the queue.
At the start of the day when there’s a couple thousand guests queuing for headliners at any theme park (hagrids, guardians, FoP, etc.) that queue doesn’t reach a steady state density for a while (let’s just call it ~hour).
This supposed huge drain on time already occurs and is part of the process. Filling up the preshow room requires people to move through the queue. If people can move through a queue before the preshow then that doesn’t change by suddenly going into a different room. It’s the same flow of people. You might have some slowdown with switchbacks if that decision is made, but queues aren’t laid out with a long stretch that matches the preshow occupant load. Look at something like Mickey and Minnie’s Runaway Railway where there are multiple pre shows and they’re still able to stage people in front of the doors, because the queue is keeping up. The big slowdown is the pulsed nature of a preshow.
MMRR works in the same way that Guardians does now. You go from queue to no queue free for all and then queue.

Starting from scratch:

1) Guardians preshow room is empty with switchbacks setup in the preshow
- For this to work, switchbacks need to be filled to have same density as current state Guardians preshow

2) Guests in queued line start walking into room group by group

3) Queued line fills after a couple minutes with low density

4) CMs have to instruct Guests to fill in all available space to increase density of the queue to hit the desired load

5) Guests at front have to move in, which takes time for Guests behind them to respond

6) Guest compacting reaches end of line in of couple minutes

7) CMs send final Guests into preshow

8) Preshow commences

9) Guests in queue start walking out

10) Final Guest leaves

11) Show reset with empty Guardians room

Without even considering the density, let’s just think about this for a second.

Focusing on point 2) assume when walking in a queue, 1 Guest enters per second. In a normal queue, that means a max of 3600 Guests can experience the attraction at the rate they walk through a queue.

Now, the preshow is about 2 minutes. Let’s assume it’s slightly faster to unload the preshow than load from a queue, so if it takes 1 minutes to unload and 3 minutes to load, you’re only loading for half the hour, so on average, one Guest every 2 seconds, soooooooo, that gives a max capacity of 1800 Guests per hour, which is less then the capacity of Guardians according to Google, meaning you’re starving the attraction of 200 Guests per hour.

This is being incredibly generous, it would really take longer than a minute to unload, so the starvation would be far worse than described here.

The difference with a normal queue is you don’t stop a normal queue for minutes at a time, whereas you do for a preshow, so you have to free for all pre-stage (and not have a queued set-up).

In the current set-up, there might be 20 Guests wide, so you might have 10 Guests entering per second, which is needed to account for the time the queue is stopped.

Yes, the pre-show’s final design is poorly designed, but no, there’s not a quick fix.
 

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