Covid Vaccine Updates and General Discussion About Vaccines

[ToTBellHop]

Why would WDW have a harder time to verify than an airline? I would assume if this becomes mainstream for flying or cruising people will either have a paper copy of a proof of vaccination or potentially an app. Ticketmaster is attemptimg to build an app that concert and sports venues can use. I assume Disney could use something like that.

Quite simply: there’s no need. Disney is allowed to be open in Florida at any capacity and would be able to start fireworks tomorrow if they wanted to. I cannot imagine them requiring a vaccine when they already claim they are safely open. Have the last 4 months been safe or not?

Ticketmaster or cruise lines on the other hand very well might require vaccines because they need to do so in order to be allowed to reopen. It’s a completely different calculus for them. Spread on a cruise liner or in a concert hall tends to be far more widespread than in theme parks. I really don’t see either restarting until a vaccine is widely available to provide legal cover. Luckily for these businesses, it appears they won’t have to wait too much longer.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Quite simply: there’s no need. Disney is allowed to be open in Florida at any capacity and would be able to start fireworks tomorrow if they wanted to. I cannot imagine them requiring a vaccine when they already claim they are safely open. Have the last 4 months been safe or not?

Ticketmaster or cruise lines on the other hand very well might require vaccines because they need to do so in order to be allowed to reopen. It’s a completely different calculus for them. Spread on a cruise liner or in a concert hall tends to be far more widespread than in theme parks. I really don’t see either restarting until a vaccine is widely available to provide legal cover. Luckily for these businesses, it appears they won’t have to wait too much longer.

In Disney's case, unless mandated, it may be a matter of waiting to see where the court of public opinion weighs its judgement.

 

[MisterPenguin]

WDW also can't throw caution to the wind, lest it open itself to lawsuits for negligence. (Despite people nominally waiving their right to sue when they buy a ticket with attached EULA, that doesn't protect companies from suits of negligence, and any jury would find not following CDC guidelines to be negligent.)

Also... Disney is trying to get DL open and constantly saying "Look at the good job we're doing in Orlando!!"

If they stop doing that 'good job,' they lose that argument.

 

[ToTBellHop]

WDW also can't throw caution to the wind, lest it open itself to lawsuits for negligence. (Despite people nominally waiving their right to sue when they buy a ticket with attached EULA, that doesn't protect companies from suits of negligence, and any jury would find not following CDC guidelines to be negligent.)

Also... Disney is trying to get DL open and constantly saying "Look at the good job we're doing in Orlando!!"

If they stop doing that 'good job,' they lose that argument.

California doesn’t really care what Disney does. They will reopen the big parks once there’s a vaccine. That’s why Disney said, “Duck it!” and reopened part of DCA as shopping and dining.

As to negligence, sure, if others start requiring a vaccine. I think that is rather unlikely. Do you live in the same America as me? They struggle to keep guns out of MK...

 

[GoofGoof]

Quite simply: there’s no need. Disney is allowed to be open in Florida at any capacity and would be able to start fireworks tomorrow if they wanted to. I cannot imagine them requiring a vaccine when they already claim they are safely open. Have the last 4 months been safe or not?

Ticketmaster or cruise lines on the other hand very well might require vaccines because they need to do so in order to be allowed to reopen. It’s a completely different calculus for them. Spread on a cruise liner or in a concert hall tends to be far more widespread than in theme parks. I really don’t see either restarting until a vaccine is widely available to provide legal cover. Luckily for these businesses, it appears they won’t have to wait too much longer.

Disney won’t just remove Covid restrictions without good cause to do so. They made a commitment to CMs and the unions to provide a safe work environment. So if they have to continue with current covid restrictions to maintain that they can. Where they might consider the alternative option of requiring proof of vaccination is if they want to remove Covid restrictions and cases aren’t naturally dropping low enough to do so. Disney cannot add much more capacity back to WDW parks without getting rid of the distancing on rides and in queues or it will become a miserable experience for guests. So if they want to be free of that restriction and the mask requirement and limited dining due to capacity limits they may only be able to get there by requiring proof of a vaccine.

I personally am very very optimistic that the vaccine will be well received and herd immunity will be reached in a timely manner so this will all be a moot point. For concerts, baseball games and Disney World the preference is for the pandemic to end and so no need for proof of vaccination. If that’s not the case and we face a summer with no concerts, sports and limited WDW it’s possible those businesses will require proof of vaccination to fully open to the half of the population that are vaccinated.

 

[GoofGoof]

Here’s some more detail on the framework for who gets the vaccine when:

3 A Framework for Equitable Allocation of COVID-19 Vaccine | Framework for Equitable Allocation of COVID-19 Vaccine | The National Academies Press

Read chapter 3 A Framework for Equitable Allocation of COVID-19 Vaccine: In response to the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic and the societal ...

www.nap.edu

It’s a long read, here’s a story that tries to summarize it:

Coronavirus vaccine dilemma: Who gets it first?

Two highly effective coronavirus vaccines are now on the horizon, but the next challenge for federal, state and local leaders will be distributing a vaccine equitably so that communities that have been hit hardest by the pandemic can have access.

www.yahoo.com

 

[ToTBellHop]

Disney won’t just remove Covid restrictions without good cause to do so. They made a commitment to CMs and the unions to provide a safe work environment. So if they have to continue with current covid restrictions to maintain that they can. Where they might consider the alternative option of requiring proof of vaccination is if they want to remove Covid restrictions and cases aren’t naturally dropping low enough to do so. Disney cannot add much more capacity back to WDW parks without getting rid of the distancing on rides and in queues or it will become a miserable experience for guests. So if they want to be free of that restriction and the mask requirement and limited dining due to capacity limits they may only be able to get there by requiring proof of a vaccine.

I personally am very very optimistic that the vaccine will be well received and herd immunity will be reached in a timely manner so this will all be a moot point. For concerts, baseball games and Disney World the preference is for the pandemic to end and so no need for proof of vaccination. If that’s not the case and we face a summer with no concerts, sports and limited WDW it’s possible those businesses will require proof of vaccination to fully open to the half of the population that are vaccinated.

I don’t share your faith in the company. Have you seen how crowded they are letting the parks get? Have you seen them install plexiglass to increase ride capacity even though the science shows plexiglass doesn’t do much at all? WDW is a more dangerous place to visit now than it was in the summer. I understand there is an expectation that WDW make up for money not coming in out west.

 

[GoofGoof]

I don’t share your faith in the company. Have you seen how crowded they are letting the parks get? Have you seen them install plexiglass to increase ride capacity even though the science shows plexiglass doesn’t do much at all? WDW is a more dangerous place to visit now than it was in the summer. I understand there is an expectation that WDW make up for money not coming in out west.

The current crowd levels are about maxed out. They could let more people in but it’s a miserable experience. The small additional profit could come at the expense of future guests and also could result in a virus outbreak and the bad PR associated with it. If there is an outbreak today at WDW and some of those crowd pictures go viral with that news Disney will have a real black eye from a PR prospective.

I still think the only way to get to full open is to remove the distancing. Plexiglass gets a little more capacity but not full open. Like I said, I hope it never comes to it and by Memorial Day or shorty after the country has reached a level where 50-75% of the population is vaccinated and we have effectively reached herd immunity or are well on out way and they can just lift the Covid restrictions without requiring proof of a vaccination. I think once Disney makes the CMs all get vaccinated that helps too because you remove the unsafe workplace issue and solve your problem with the unions where you committed to masks and distancing. If the CMs are protected and the majority of guests are protected they will hit a tipping point where most of society starts to fully open and Disney will follow. Once they allow fans in the stands at MLB games and crowds in a concert there’s no reason to hold back for a theme park.

The proof of vaccination idea only comes into play if it looks like it may take the rest of 2021 to get to herd immunity. If the vaccinations stall at too low a percentage from either lack of demand or from distribution issues. If Disney could get a full summer and fall holiday season in with much larger crowds by requiring proof of vaccination it may be worthwhile to consider. They would lose some guests who haven’t gotten the vaccine yet, but if enough have the math might work better. Its unlikely to happen unless the rest of s starts doing it.

 

[Heppenheimer]

I can't help but wonder if any of our (real) insiders have heard any preliminary discussions about a vaccine pass.

 

[ToTBellHop]

The current crowd levels are about maxed out. They could let more people in but it’s a miserable experience. The small additional profit could come at the expense of future guests and also could result in a virus outbreak and the bad PR associated with it. If there is an outbreak today at WDW and some of those crowd pictures go viral with that news Disney will have a real black eye from a PR prospective.

I still think the only way to get to full open is to remove the distancing. Plexiglass gets a little more capacity but not full open. Like I said, I hope it never comes to it and by Memorial Day or shorty after the country has reached a level where 50-75% of the population is vaccinated and we have effectively reached herd immunity or are well on out way and they can just lift the Covid restrictions without requiring proof of a vaccination. I think once Disney makes the CMs all get vaccinated that helps too because you remove the unsafe workplace issue and solve your problem with the unions where you committed to masks and distancing. If the CMs are protected and the majority of guests are protected they will hit a tipping point where most of society starts to fully open and Disney will follow. Once they allow fans in the stands at MLB games and crowds in a concert there’s no reason to hold back for a theme park.

The proof of vaccination idea only comes into play if it looks like it may take the rest of 2021 to get to herd immunity. If the vaccinations stall at too low a percentage from either lack of demand or from distribution issues. If Disney could get a full summer and fall holiday season in with much larger crowds by requiring proof of vaccination it may be worthwhile to consider. They would lose some guests who haven’t gotten the vaccine yet, but if enough have the math might work better. Its unlikely to happen unless the rest of s starts doing it.

Businesses other than hospitals are unlikely to require a vaccine. At best, any adverse reaction would be grounds for a worker‘s comp claim. Once a vaccine is widely available, Disney has considerable cover, especially given the efficacy data. If you want to largely be protected, get your shot(s).

 

[GoofGoof]

Businesses other than hospitals are unlikely to require a vaccine. At best, any adverse reaction would be grounds for a worker‘s comp claim. Once a vaccine is widely available, Disney has considerable cover, especially given the efficacy data. If you want to largely be protected, get your shot(s).

I could be off base, but I thought there was something in the warp speed program that shelters companies from liability due to adverse reactions to the vaccine and has the federal government take that liability. Not sure if that applies to a company that would require its employees to get the vaccine too. I agree it’s unlikely that vaccines will be required anywhere except maybe medical and first responders and possibly schools, but so much of what has happened in 2020 was unlikely yet here we are. Anything could be on the table.

 

[ToTBellHop]

I could be off base, but I thought there was something in the warp speed program that shelters companies from liability due to adverse reactions to the vaccine and has the federal government take that liability. Not sure if that applies to a company that would require its employees to get the vaccine too. I agree it’s unlikely that vaccines will be required anywhere except maybe medical and first responders and possibly schools, but so much of what has happened in 2020 was unlikely yet here we are. Anything could be on the table.

That I will agree with. Much will depend on how we control the virus without true mandates. If governments have to be more heavy-handed, they will try to do so. It was a struggle to even enforce mask mandates, however, so we will see. Americans don’t like being told to do something, even if it is something as simple as, “don’t kill someone else.”

I‘m sure China will mandate it...

 

[Lilofan]

Anyone flying Quantas will need to follow their policy moving forward when the vaccine comes out. Guests will be denied boarding without proof of vaccination.

 

[seascape]

That I will agree with. Much will depend on how we control the virus without true mandates. If governments have to be more heavy-handed, they will try to do so. It was a struggle to even enforce mask mandates, however, so we will see. Americans don’t like being told to do something, even if it is something as simple as, “don’t kill someone else.”

I‘m sure China will mandate it...

As a Libertarian I hate mandates but as a taxpayer, a health insurance purchaser and an American, I say take the vaccine. It is all our responsibility to take it or pay the price. I do believe in freedom of choice though and if you refuse to take it, you should have that right but be refused admittance to a themepark, hotel, airplane, store, or workplace. You should also be denied healthcare because you are the one demanding everyone else take the risk and subsidize you. Take it or leave society because we can't afford people who refuse to do the right thing.

 

[GoofGoof]

As a Libertarian I hate mandates but as a taxpayer, a health insurance purchaser and an American, I say take the vaccine. It is all our responsibility to take it or pay the price. I do believe in freedom of choice though and if you refuse to take it, you should have that right but be refused admittance to a themepark, hotel, airplane, store, or workplace. You should also be denied healthcare because you are the one demanding everyone else take the risk and subsidize you. Take it or leave society because we can't afford people who refuse to do the right thing.

I think the key is if something is not essential than toon has the option to just not do it. For example of an airline (quantas) or a cruise ship requires a vaccine and you don’t wNt t9 get it just avoid those things. I think it’s a slippery slope to have the government try to mandate for everyone. People have the right to opt out, but if doing so is a negative for society as a whole (it is) then there could be consequences. I guess what I’m saying is you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t resist the vaccine and then want to be allowed to do everything others who got it can do.

 

[Smooth]

Doctors say CDC should warn people the side effects from Covid vaccine shots won't be 'a walk in the park'

Doctors urge the CDC to be transparent about the side effects people may experience after getting their first shot of a coronavirus vaccine.

www.cnbc.com

 

[eliza61nyc]

That I will agree with. Much will depend on how we control the virus without true mandates. If governments have to be more heavy-handed, they will try to do so. It was a struggle to even enforce mask mandates, however, so we will see. Americans don’t like being told to do something, even if it is something as simple as, “don’t kill someone else.”

I‘m sure China will mandate it...

I agree but I also remember very similar arguments over other mandates. I remember the whole seat belt "melt down" and lord have mercy the no smoking indoors thing. We don't like being told to do but usually after the brouhaha we settle down. lol what's that saying "Americans will do the right thing only after exhausting all other possibilities". How many people swore up and down they weren't going to fly because of the xrays and pat downs? Now? we rarely blink an eye.

 

[ToTBellHop]

I agree but I also remember very similar arguments over other mandates. I remember the whole seat belt "melt down" and lord have mercy the no smoking indoors thing. We don't like being told to do but usually after the brouhaha we settle down. lol what's that saying "Americans will do the right thing only after exhausting all other possibilities". How many people swore up and down they weren't going to fly because of the xrays and pat downs? Now? we rarely blink an eye.

I fear hundreds of thousands more may die while we avoid getting vaccinated and the rest of the world does. Then where does that leave us? TRON-less, that’s where.

 

[GoofGoof]

Doctors say CDC should warn people the side effects from Covid vaccine shots won't be 'a walk in the park'

Doctors urge the CDC to be transparent about the side effects people may experience after getting their first shot of a coronavirus vaccine.

www.cnbc.com

The side effects are similar to a flu shot, but people do need to be made aware of that. You don’t want to scare off too many people, but at the same time if people get the first shot and then have a reaction and because of that don’t go back for the second shot the vaccine won’t be effective and we will have wasted it. It’s tough to strike a balance between preparing people for the short term negative reaction and scaring them away, but I think they need a good PR campaign to say you may feel a little unwell, but not anywhere close to as bad as you would with actual covid.

 

[Heppenheimer]

The side effects are similar to a flu shot, but people do need to be made aware of that. You don’t want to scare off too many people, but at the same time if people get the first shot and then have a reaction and because of that don’t go back for the second shot the vaccine won’t be effective and we will have wasted it. It’s tough to strike a balance between preparing people for the short term negative reaction and scaring them away, but I think they need a good PR campaign to say you may feel a little unwell, but not anywhere close to as bad as you would with actual covid.

It might be a good idea to recommend the recipient also takes a heavy dose of anti-inflammatories or acetaminophen for a day or two, if they don't have any contra-indications to those medications. It wouldn't interfere with the development of immunity and it would likely significantly mitigate the most unpleasant side effects.