Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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mmascari

Well-Known Member
While you are correct from a statistical standpoint, the risk of a breakthrough case with mild symptoms to somebody under 60 who is fully vaccinated and keeps up with recommended boosters is still going to be extremely low even with "high" community transmission. Even a weekly case rate of 2000 per 100k people is still only around 2% of the population in an infectious state on any given day. On an individual bases you are not very likely to have a long duration, close contact with one of them.
This is clearly false, or spread in general would be much lower.

It's not a single event, it's an event at every contact, every day/hour, repeated, again and again and again. Your chance is dramatically higher than you think. From a mathematics stand point, I think this is more like the "same birthday day/month" problem. Where if you have 23 random people in a room, there is a greater than 50% chance 2 of them will have the same birthday day/month. Not that you specifically will have the same, but that two of them will. Now, with COVID, you repeat that experiment again and again and again. Eventually, you will be the one. Maybe not the first 100 times, but keep doing it and eventually it'll be you. Bonus, with COVID being the one just once may be enough for lasting impacts.

Reducing spread is the best reduction to that chance.

If it is a group project it is going to fail unless there is actual forced vaccination. There are going to be a percentage of people who are dead set against vaccination and are not covered by any mandates (if they don't get permanently tossed in court) and who will just avoid places or activities covered by vaccine passports.
It's a group project. Always has been. Trying to pretend otherwise doesn't change that. It's a public health problem and needs a public health solution. Which, by definition, is a group, the public.

There will be some that hold out. We don't need 100% anyway. There's always that slacker on the team and group projects can still work out. The trick is always that the number of slackers needs to be low enough. We've covered all the ways to encourage and slowly exclude from society (hence remove from the public group) unvaccinated people. There's some that will go that route, but it's way less than you think. Bonus, why should they get to dictate the impact to everyone else? Nobody likes the slacker on a group project that lets the rest of the team do all the work and gets to coast along.

I just don't see the point in an exercise in futility. I think we would be better off making vaccination about personal protection, dropping all mitigation and just letting the virus rip through the unvaccinated holdouts as quickly as possible.
Except it still doesn't work that way, and never has. While a vaccine helps train your immune system to fight off infection and give you a huge head start and advantage, it has always worked best because of the group impact of everyone being vaccinated keeping spread low so that your personal immune system rarely has to do anything.

I know the working theory is that the higher the case rate is the more likely mutations are. However, isn't it possible that if the current variants are allowed to spread freely among the unvaccinated, mutations could be less likely since the virus doesn't need to adapt to find hosts? I don't know if it works the same as it does with bacteria but it is my understanding that antibiotic resistant bacteria evolve because they are being fought with the antibiotics so they need to adapt to survive.
Every replication is a chance for a mutation. The vast number of mutations happen in the unvaccinated, or people where the vaccine didn't work.

For each mutation, that new version is either able to replicate and spread better, the same, or worse than the prior one.

So, there is some pressure where mutations that are better able to breakthrough vaccine protection will be able to spread while mutations that are the same or worse will not be able to spread. To really be an issue, it needs to not just be able to infect a vaccinated person, but also replicate in them and be able to spread on to others better than other variations are spreading.

It's not a directed change, just trial and error. Seeded from large replication trying to spread and either failing or succeeding. So, the larger the uncontrolled spread, the more replication and mutations and attempts at spread are occurring.

It's much faster and more direct with antibiotic resistant bacteria. The bacteria replicates and the antibiotic kills off most of them. The surviving bacteria replicates. The antibiotic kills off most of them again, repeat. Eventually, the only bacteria surviving are the mutations that were able to survive and they go on to spread to the next person.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
I’m not going to explain this again. Please google delirium tremens. A severe, life threatening, hospital requiring, condition that occurs in alcoholics that stop drinking abruptly. The only prevention to this condition other then an inpatient admission is alcohol. Hospitals didn’t need a surge in admissions.
One reason is alcohol related domestic violence could spike ( more going to hospitals for care ) if alcohol is denied to some customers hence liquor stores are made to be essential services during the pandemic. Liquor stores are also a big money maker for govt ( ie taxed on liquor ) .
 
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mmascari

Well-Known Member
I know you are being sarcastic but you'll be much happier for the next few years if you stopped worrying about COVID once vaccinated (and followed up with boosters) and did just that.
Sticking your head in the sand and just ignoring the world events around you can make someone happier too. Right up until it doesn't in a bad way.

That it doesn't do is actually try to improve the situation.

I mean, I dislike taking my car in for service. I could just just not worry about oil changes. Probably get away with it for a while too, right up until it becomes very bad. 🤷‍♂️
 

TikibirdLand

Well-Known Member
Sticking your head in the sand and just ignoring the world events around you can make someone happier too. Right up until it doesn't in a bad way.

That it doesn't do is actually try to improve the situation.

I mean, I dislike taking my car in for service. I could just just not worry about oil changes. Probably get away with it for a while too, right up until it becomes very bad. 🤷‍♂️
Not sure I understand your analogy... If you're getting vacinated and getting booster(s), aren't you "taking my car in for service" so to speak? If you're doing that, I think you're doing your part in helping with this pandemic.
 

Yodascousin

Active Member
It’s not going away, but the issue remains how many immunity naive people remain. We started in November 2019 with 100% naive and have been working our way through. This summer estimates were that 30% of the US population remained. Delta knocked us down to about 15%. But with more immunity escape then that bumps us back up somewhat. How much depends on the percentage of severity of breakthrough cases in older, vulnerable. But even those won’t bring us back to what we were facing before. Although people being less careful can lead to vulnerable people being hospitalized at higher rates. The ceiling for max hospitalizations has dropped. But as long as as it’s still above capacity we have a situation that needs to be hands-on managed. And as pointed out earlier in the thread, Canada has less surge capacity than the US.
More and more actual evidence pointing towards less severity even people with no prior protection…a new study found that the cells don’t replicate in the lungs as well as previous variants which points towards less severe…bad news it replicates 70x faster in the throat which is why it’s so damn infectious
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
Not sure I understand your analogy... If you're getting vacinated and getting booster(s), aren't you "taking my car in for service" so to speak? If you're doing that, I think you're doing your part in helping with this pandemic.
It's just that you cannot simply ignore problems and then not worry about them.

Just ignoring that community spread is still high and pretending it doesn't matter because you are personally vaccinated is ignoring a problem.

Yes, getting vaccinated is the most direct thing you can personally do to help reduce spread. But, it's not enough, and it's not a full solution.
 

TikibirdLand

Well-Known Member
It's just that you cannot simply ignore problems and then not worry about them.

Just ignoring that community spread is still high and pretending it doesn't matter because you are personally vaccinated is ignoring a problem.

Yes, getting vaccinated is the most direct thing you can personally do to help reduce spread. But, it's not enough, and it's not a full solution.
I can tell you're worried about it. But, how does that translate into action on your part? Getting on a forum and yelling at the sky isn't part of the solution; and, neither is worrying about it. Do your part ("get your car serviced"), do the same for your family's "car" too. Encourage your neighbors. Just realize that last group has their own opinions and may not follow your advice.
 

Bob Harlem

Well-Known Member
More and more actual evidence pointing towards less severity even people with no prior protection…a new study found that the cells don’t replicate in the lungs as well as previous variants which points towards less severe…bad news it replicates 70x faster in the throat which is why it’s so damn infectious
The source for this is from the Hong Kong Study. Effectively much more bronchial, almost no lung. Which is why the symptoms usually don't include oxygen loss. Rapid spike in cases (as in breaking records nearly everywhere, even in areas that haven't had spikes) then followed by a rapid dropoff, not much folks can do to likely to stop it, either. Luckily these types of symptoms are much less likely to cause long term effects. But also, lots of people will catch it and not even know they have it unless they get tested.

 
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Lilofan

Well-Known Member
I can tell you're worried about it. But, how does that translate into action on your part? Getting on a forum and yelling at the sky isn't part of the solution; and, neither is worrying about it. Do your part ("get your car serviced"), do the same for your family's "car" too. Encourage your neighbors. Just realize that last group has their own opinions and may not follow your advice.
I've encouraged friends and family but I also support businesses giving the ultimatum. Get the shot or face losing your job .
 

Joesixtoe

Well-Known Member
New Isreal study. Basically shows natural immunity is very strong and last longer than regular vaccinated. Boosters help with both vaccinated and unvaccinated. In the report it shows about 1,400 out of the 1,600 critically I'll patients where vaccinated(not counting those who had neither natural or vaccines). Athletes from different sports are having to sit out due to covid, places with high vaccinated rates go through waves of covid.. another report from out of I believe California says both vaccinated and unvaccinated carry roughly the same viral load, meaning vaccinated do spread the virus not just CAN. I think everyone needs to treat this like a therapeutic, it does help with covid, but it doesn't eliminate covid.
 

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DisneyFan32

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
Yes
New Isreal study. Basically shows natural immunity is very strong and last longer than regular vaccinated. Boosters help with both vaccinated and unvaccinated. In the report it shows about 1,400 out of the 1,600 critically I'll patients where vaccinated(not counting those who had neither natural or vaccines). Athletes from different sports are having to sit out due to covid, places with high vaccinated rates go through waves of covid.. another report from out of I believe California says both vaccinated and unvaccinated carry roughly the same viral load, meaning vaccinated do spread the virus not just CAN. I think everyone needs to treat this like a therapeutic, it does help with covid, but it doesn't eliminate covid.
So thats means the pandemic will longer for years or the pandemic will ending by next year?
 

JoeCamel

Well-Known Member
New Isreal study. Basically shows natural immunity is very strong and last longer than regular vaccinated. Boosters help with both vaccinated and unvaccinated. In the report it shows about 1,400 out of the 1,600 critically I'll patients where vaccinated(not counting those who had neither natural or vaccines). Athletes from different sports are having to sit out due to covid, places with high vaccinated rates go through waves of covid.. another report from out of I believe California says both vaccinated and unvaccinated carry roughly the same viral load, meaning vaccinated do spread the virus not just CAN. I think everyone needs to treat this like a therapeutic, it does help with covid, but it doesn't eliminate covid.

One of the reports
Rather than screenshots can you provide a link to the data? I have to jump through hoops to read those then I still have questions about them
 

Joesixtoe

Well-Known Member

I believe this study is showing a lower transmission rate from the vaccines in the original covid virus, but not so much in the Delta. I didn't comb through this much, but from skimming through it, it's what I got.
 
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