Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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Polkadotdress

Well-Known Member
Imagine going to WDW with your family, knowing the mask rules when you book the trip (or agree to go with your family), and deciding, "I'll go, but I'm going to make it an unpleasant and awkward experience for my family and make the Cast Members' jobs harder by daring them to confront me about my blatant disregard for the rules in place - and possibly get my family kicked out over my refusal to wear a mask indoors."
Last week...or the week before, there was a whole side-tangent discussion in which a user on this site expressed those same opinions, about how they wouldn't wear a mask at Disney unless asked to do so, and even then, they would take their time putting it on. Almost everyone jumped on this person for selfishly making the Cast's job harder.

Wonder if that person, and the one you saw at Jambo house are one and the same?
 

mmascari

Well-Known Member
The single shot percentage is close to 90% (87% to be more precise) of the population. I am assuming that most of those get to fully vaccinated sometime soon.
I wouldn't count on it. I thought the same thing, but was very wrong.

Back on 10/25/2021 I posted that my county was "% of Population ≥ 12 Years of Age" with "At least One Dose" is also at 99.9%.

Today: % of Population ≥ 12 Years of Age: One Dose, 95%, Fully Vaccinated 93.6%.

Not sure how the one dose went down, but even before it did, the Fully Vaccinated never got above 94%. No idea why people aren't getting the second shot.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
I push for no masks because they are annoying and uncomfortable to wear (for me and many others) and whatever benefit they provide is not high enough to justify forcing me (who is fully vaccinated and boosted) to wear one any time or anywhere.
Yes, Mr. 50%. The rest of the world doesn't work on this principle for anything else, though. Look at how much Disney is ruining the guest experience to squeeze some extra dollars out of people. Certainly not 50% extra dollars. They go to bat for pennies. Do me a favor, the next time your employer institutes a procedural change ask if it results in a 50% change in anything, and then refuse to do it, if it's inconvenient to you. In cycling, the Sky Team called it "Marginal Gains" but in business I'm sure there are all sorts of terminology for it.

If Business could identify a 10-20% improvement for their bottom line they wouldn't care how much inconvenience it caused to employees or customers. We're only talking about people's health and lives. We can see where things rank. People aren't that important after all.
 

correcaminos

Well-Known Member
I agree. I'd estimate about 95% compliance indoors during my stay. I did forget once when going back to our room. We had been at the pool and I had put my mask inside a Ziploc bag in my backpack. My wife an I were the only ones on the elevator and for a moment I felt so normal again that I forgot to get the mask out until I stepped off the elevator and into the hallway. Fortunately, nobody else was in the hallway and our room was just 2 doors down from the elevator so I made it to the room quicker than I would have gotten the mask out and on my face (thanks to being tall and having a long stride). I saw a few others who caught themselves the same way and had that sudden realization of, "Oh no! I didn't put my mask on" look on their faces. The people who give dirty looks to people who are wearing them or roll their eyes and huff and puff when told to wear theirs are the ones I have no patience for anymore. So many people boarding our flight home looked like their parents just told them they had to finish their homework before they could play video games when the flight attendants told them to pull up their masks. Meanwhile, a father carrying a toddler and a suitcase had his mask slip just slightly below his nose as he was boarding the plane. The flight attendant saw his predicament and just politely said, "when you get seated and have a second, please remember to pull up your mask." He didn't roll his eyes or pout. He just somehow managed to use one of his hands to pull up his mask as he kept walking rather than waiting until he got to his seat - and didn't even drop the kid! 🤘
Learning to juggle things with kids is a true art form. Kudos to them. I know I shared a story where all 3 of our masks at the pool were blown off the lounger into water. I tried to text the friend back at our room but no answer. So we ran for it. Was stopped by fully masked family lost looking for their room. We did explain and they were like "no worries we're vaccinated too" so I get crap happens. It did to us, but the ones who flaunt it bug me.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
Yes, Mr. 50%. The rest of the world doesn't work on this principle for anything else, though. Look at how much Disney is ruining the guest experience to squeeze some extra dollars out of people. Certainly not 50% extra dollars. They go to bat for pennies. Do me a favor, the next time your employer institutes a procedural change ask if it results in a 50% change in anything, and then refuse to do it, if it's inconvenient to you. In cycling, the Sky Team called it "Marginal Gains" but in business I'm sure there are all sorts of terminology for it.

If Business could identify a 10-20% improvement for their bottom line they wouldn't care how much inconvenience it caused to employees or customers. We're only talking about people's health and lives. We can see where things rank. People aren't that important after all.
Those pesky situations, when an employee refuses to follow company policy , that person will not be employed there much longer. My way or the highway.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
Those pesky situations, when an employee refuses to follow company policy , that person will not be employed there much longer.
That's the point. People don't have expectations of things needing a 50% improvement to the bottom line to be motivated to do them. They are motivated to do them for other reasons all the time. Like remaining employed.

Except, affecting the rate at which people die, experience long term health concerns... not motivating enough.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
That's the point. People don't have expectations of things needing a 50% improvement to the bottom line to be motivated to do them. They are motivated to do them for other reasons all the time. Like remaining employed.
Yes that's true, if one wants to remain employed, you better play along to get along.
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
Yes, Mr. 50%. The rest of the world doesn't work on this principle for anything else, though. Look at how much Disney is ruining the guest experience to squeeze some extra dollars out of people. Certainly not 50% extra dollars. They go to bat for pennies. Do me a favor, the next time your employer institutes a procedural change ask if it results in a 50% change in anything, and then refuse to do it, if it's inconvenient to you. In cycling, the Sky Team called it "Marginal Gains" but in business I'm sure there are all sorts of terminology for it.

If Business could identify a 10-20% improvement for their bottom line they wouldn't care how much inconvenience it caused to employees or customers. We're only talking about people's health and lives. We can see where things rank. People aren't that important after all.
Even the flawed "study" posted earlier doesn't claim anything near 50%. It claimed around 27% improvement. The reality is likely lower, quite possibly a lot lower.

People who can be vaccinated and boosted FOR FREE to keep COVID-19 from being a significant issue for them and don't take advantage are not important to me at all. Whatever happens to them as a result of what I do or don't do isn't a concern of mine.

I shouldn't have my WDW experience degraded for a small benefit which benefits people who have chosen to not be vaccinated in almost all cases. Before you say, "then don't go" like I tell people who aren't comfortable if there is no mask requirement, I wouldn't if I hadn't already paid for my AP. Had I known that they would reinstate the requirement after vaccines were available to all (and especially 5+), I would have never renewed.
 

Disstevefan1

Well-Known Member
The case numbers are an early warning sign for hospital capacity. If people really cared about overwhelming hospital capacity they wouldn’t be comfortable letting case numbers spike. It takes 2-3 weeks for cases to progress to serious enough to need hospital care. If you wait until hospitals are approaching full before doing anything… then for the hospitals the next 2-3 weeks after that will be bad. The patients showing up in that window will have gotten sick before anyone had concerns. The two function as an “If Then” statement. The variable, the percentage that move from one to the other has changed. But the number of immunity naive + vulnerable w/immunity is still high enough that even under these new conditions it can overwhelm bed space. You can write all of this out as if it were programming logic.

Do people not want early warning systems? Do people not believe the underlying math again?

Or are people saying they still care about hospitals because it looks bad to admit you don’t, but they really don’t care?
Early waning is only as good as the quality of the data we are looking at. I wish I could trust this data.

The data is good while it fits someone personal narrative but when there is a change in the numbers in either way, for whatever reason (usually human errors; not posting numbers, delayed posting, double posting) then the data is bad.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.
 

Chip Chipperson

Well-Known Member
Even the flawed "study" posted earlier doesn't claim anything near 50%. It claimed around 27% improvement. The reality is likely lower, quite possibly a lot lower.

People who can be vaccinated and boosted FOR FREE to keep COVID-19 from being a significant issue for them and don't take advantage are not important to me at all. Whatever happens to them as a result of what I do or don't do isn't a concern of mine.

I shouldn't have my WDW experience degraded for a small benefit which benefits people who have chosen to not be vaccinated in almost all cases. Before you say, "then don't go" like I tell people who aren't comfortable if there is no mask requirement, I wouldn't if I hadn't already paid for my AP. Had I known that they would reinstate the requirement after vaccines were available to all (and especially 5+), I would have never renewed.

They should be important to you and should be a concern of yours if for no other reason than the fact that their actions (or inactions, as it may be) can negatively impact the rest of us by taking up limited hospital resources, increasing insurance premiums, and spreading the virus enough to keep producing new variants while also spreading it to vaccinated people who may not have the same protection as other vaccinated people. That's in addition to potential supply chain issues caused by an outbreak at a warehouse/factory/processing plant. We already have enough supply chain issues caused by ships floating out in the Pacific Ocean waiting for a spot to dock, we shouldn't have to deal with shortages of various foods because a processing plant had an outbreak.
 

Heppenheimer

Well-Known Member
Also, I wouldn't count on VT getting there in just a few weeks.

From the CDC.

They've been over 400K fully vaccinated since 6/10/2021 and are only at 470K now on 12/13/2021. That graph is super flat now, just like everywhere else. They are not some special unicorn of vaccination.
Other than kids, I don't think our adult numbers are going to change much in Vermont. The remaining holdouts are pretty hardcore, until they actually contract COVID.
 

hopemax

Well-Known Member
Early waning is only as good as the quality of the data we are looking at. I wish I could trust this data.

The data is good while it fits someone personal narrative but when there is a change in the numbers in either way, for whatever reason (usually human errors; not posting numbers, delayed posting, double posting) then the data is bad.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Adaptability isn't a measurement in the presence of "good data." Adaptability is often measured to how effectively people responded when the data quality is poor and conflicting. Ask any battle commander in human history how much confidence they had in the data before they invoked a defensive strategy. If you wait too long, in the wrong circumstance, bad things happen. Unwillingness to act in one's own defense is not a long term winnable strategy. So what you are really demonstrating is that you don't think an exponential epidemiological curve is worth a defensive strategy because when the "real data" is in, it won't look anything like the same shape as it does now?
 

DisneyCane

Well-Known Member
How many different ways does it need to be explained that this is simply not true?
It is true. Nothing we do in the US is going to stop mutations. The chance of me needing a hospital or ICU bed during a time when COVID patients are causing capacity issues is extremely low as it is for the overwhelming majority of people under 65. Therefore they are of no concern to me.
 

Disstevefan1

Well-Known Member
Adaptability isn't a measurement in the presence of "good data." Adaptability is often measured to how effectively people responded when the data quality is poor and conflicting. Ask any battle commander in human history how much confidence they had in the data before they invoked a defensive strategy. If you wait too long, in the wrong circumstance, bad things happen. Unwillingness to act in one's own defense is not a long term winnable strategy. So what you are really demonstrating is that you don't think an exponential epidemiological curve is worth a defensive strategy because when the "real data" is in, it won't look anything like the same shape as it does now?
The data is the data however good (or bad) it is.
Everyone should ( and I presume would want to) act in their own defence.
 
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