Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

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carolina_yankee

Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity - if a person has had and recovered from COVID and now has natural immunity do you count them among the unvaccinated or the vaccinated?
I think it depends on how recently they had COVId. My understanding is that the vaccine gives better protection but it may not be needed until a certain timeframe has passed. I have an employee who got COVID at Easter. She just finished her vaccination course last week. Another one was infected in February two days before his first shot appointment. He got vaccinated in May.
 

Lilofan

Well-Known Member
When you have the level of demonization going around traditional and social media towards the unvaccinated, at what point does this line of thought become justified and the norm. It is a scary time for personal liberty.
Personal liberty is part of the problem why this is currently the pandemic of the unvaccinated over crowding our hospitals to include surgeries being delayed. How many more adults and children have to do die because of this? No demonization in this feedback. Our country is a laughing stock to others when we have vaccines and some who are healthy enough to get them refuse to get the shot.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
Just out of curiosity - if a person has had and recovered from COVID and now has natural immunity do you count them among the unvaccinated or the vaccinated?
If you don’t have the vaccine you are unvaccinated. There’s no other way to look at it. Are you talking about who is immune? In that case it’s both the vaccinated and the naturally infected that at least have some level of immunity. As far as things like employers requiring vaccination there is no practical way to allow an exception for someone being naturally infected. Same goes for vaccine passports. We don’t require kids to be vaccinated against a bunch of stuff to go to school but then allow a kid who isn’t vaccinated to attend if they get that sickness. It just doesn’t work that way.
 

monothingie

Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
Premium Member
I didn’t realize wanting people to get vaccinated AND not supporting vaccine mandates was such a controversial stance. 🤷‍♂️
I’m afraid we just disagree on this. I personally find it amazing people wouldn’t choose to vaccinate, but I’d advocate for their ability to choose that outcome.

But it leads back to the original question at what point do the rights of the unvaccinated stop? And what do you do about people who will not comply under any circumstances?
 

Jedijax719

Well-Known Member
I feel like there is a a HUGE difference between governors not wanting to impose a state-wide mask mandate and governors not allowing independent entities to do so themselves.

That is what Florida and Texas are dealing with. They don't want to declare a mask mandate for all institutions such as schools. That's fine, but get out of the way of those who do want to do it themselves. Not giving businesses and schools the option is what the REAL problem is.

There are many who have been vaccinated who don't want to wear masks and are careful around others. That's okay (to a point). But those who are refusing to get vaccinated AND refusing to wear masks but go around a lot of people....those are the ones creating the problem.
 

Andrew C

You know what's funny?
I’m afraid we just disagree on this. I personally find it amazing people wouldn’t choose to vaccinate, but I’d advocate for their ability to choose that outcome.

But it leads back to the original question at what point do the rights of the unvaccinated stop? And what do you do about people who will not comply under any circumstances?
I don’t think we disagree actually. I would love for them to get vaccinated. I think it’s silly they wouldn’t. But I wouldn’t support forcing them to. It’s voluntary.

maybe where we disagree a bit is I believe businesses should have the ability to require vaccinations for their employees in certain cases?
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
When you have the level of demonization going around traditional and social media towards the unvaccinated, at what point does this line of thought become justified and the norm. It is a scary time for personal liberty.
The "personal liberty" line is deeply misleading. We have liberty to act right up to the point where we negatively impact the liberty of others, and remaining unvaccinated does that. The "personal liberty" screamers need to go back and read up on the founders and the degree to which they felt personal liberty went hand in hand with a profound, almost overwhelming sense of duty to the public good. They likely would have accepted that people could choose not to be vaccinated - but those people (barring those with genuine medical issues) should be looked down upon for shirking their duty.

Americans have accepted much greater and more questionable threats to personal liberty then vaccine mandates without batting an eye. Vaccine mandates have become entangled with notions of "personal liberty" because a small group of powerful people see personal advantage in prolonging the pandemic while a larger group are too fearful to incur the wrath of the antivaxxers and follow along.

Most of the folks claiming that demonization and mockery are driving their decision not to get vaxxed are lying. For many of them, its a bad faith game. We know from polls and lived experience that what makes people get vaxxed are mandates that prevent the unvaxxed from doing the things they want to do. That's the way forward.
 
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Lilofan

Well-Known Member
I don’t think we disagree actually. I would love for them to get vaccinated. I think it’s silly they wouldn’t. But I wouldn’t support forcing them to. It’s voluntary.

maybe where we disagree a bit is I believe businesses should have the ability to require vaccinations for their employees in certain cases?
Bottom line - companies are legally permitted to require staff to get vaccinated. If staff will not comply by the deadline, then start looking for another job - to get to the point.
 

Chi84

Premium Member
I’m afraid we just disagree on this. I personally find it amazing people wouldn’t choose to vaccinate, but I’d advocate for their ability to choose that outcome.

But it leads back to the original question at what point do the rights of the unvaccinated stop? And what do you do about people who will not comply under any circumstances?
I don't think the government is going to mandate vaccines. I do think that employers will mandate them and that businesses may decide to adopt vaccine passports or take other actions unfavorable to the unvaccinated if COVID is a problem for much longer.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "rights of the unvaccinated." Individuals would have some protections under the ADA if they had a disability that prevented vaccination - in that case some type of reasonable accommodation would have to be made. Also, most states allow medical and religious/philosophical objections to vaccines, although two of the most populous (California and New York) no longer allow the religious/philosophical one. Others may follow suit if vaccine resistance becomes a serious threat to the public health.

Other than that, "people who choose not to get vaccinated" are not a protected group under laws prohibiting discrimination or requiring equal treatment, so I don't know what rights they would claim are being violated. Their remedy to avoid being fired, excluded from concerts/sports venues, being charged higher insurance premiums, etc. is to get vaccinated.

Edited to add: States can add to the protections accorded their citizens, provided they do not conflict with federal law.
 
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GoofGoof

Premium Member
I don’t think we disagree actually. I would love for them to get vaccinated. I think it’s silly they wouldn’t. But I wouldn’t support forcing them to. It’s voluntary.

maybe where we disagree a bit is I believe businesses should have the ability to require vaccinations for their employees in certain cases?
This exactly.

Nobody has suggested in any way that people would be held down and forcibly vaccinated. You always have a choice. However, there’s no reason an employer or a business should not be allowed to require people to be vaccinated to work in their facilities or even visit them as a customer. Why do the unvaccinated think they are the only ones with rights?
 

Virtual Toad

Well-Known Member
When you have the level of demonization going around traditional and social media towards the unvaccinated, at what point does this line of thought become justified and the norm. It is a scary time for personal liberty.
I’m sorry you feel that way and I understand. My family, my wife, our children and their grandparents have sacrificed a lot of our own personal liberty over the last 18 months. Working and learning from home, wearing masks, foregoing birthday parties and family visits and social occasions and career opportunities and more. We did it for the greater good, playing a responsible role as members of society to try to put a stop to the pandemic so we can all move on.

We know we were blessed with the ability to do all this. We also realize that many could not. We did it not as an exercise in sacrificing liberty, but as an exercise in doing whatever we could to deny COVID a path to infecting ourselves and others.

In the meantime, talented and dedicated scientists— people far, far smarter than you or me or most anyone else— worked their tails off to provide us all with a path out of this mess. The vaccines are an absolute gift, a literal life preserver in the midst of an unprecedented storm.

We live in a society where the vaccines are free and available at will on just about any street corner.

Many other nations are far less fortunate. And they are suffering as a result.

But our own ongoing suffering seems, to many of us, tragically and woefully self-inflicted.

Why as a nation do so many feel so entitled to senselessly and selfishly prolong a pandemic in the misguided name of protecting liberty— when the real ongoing threat to liberty is the prolonging of the pandemic itself?

Days have turned to weeks, to months, to years.

The vaccine is there and readily available.

And yet, so many still choose not to take the amazing opportunity we’ve been handed— on a sliver platter no less— to get us out of this mess.

It should come as no surprise that many of us view this as bewildering, inexplicable and irresponsible.

People who don’t feel that way are of course entitled to their own opinion. And they are free to express it. They are also free to express fear and uncertainty whenever they feel their rights are being threatened.

And if they feel they are being shamed, well, they are more than free to express that opinion as well.

Opinions matter. They are valuable. They shape our public discourse and public debate.

But the facts remain.

No one is forcing anyone to get vaccinated.

The vaccines have proven themselves to be remarkably safe and effective.

The more people who get vaccinated, the sooner we will be able to emerge from this mess.

Those able to get vaccinated— but who choose not to do so— serve as vectors for the virus to continue its relentless spread, contributing to ongoing illness, stress, and economic harm.

And the unnecessary deaths of our fellow citizens.

Including the very folks we should, as a mature and responsible society, be going out of our way to protect.

Each and every day, every minute that we choose to wallow in fear and/or outrage over the spectre of lost liberty— when asking folks to step up to do their part as mature members of society is not in any conceivable way a violation of anyone’s liberty— each day, every single second we choose this path is an absolute gift.

A gift to COVID.

On a silver platter.

And an ongoing detriment to the health, welfare and liberty of each and every one of us.

Expressing this is not shaming. It is not calling someone stupid. It is a heartfelt and urgent plea.

That we must stop this endless diversion of energy, attention and resolve from the task at hand. And focus on the very real and truly urgent existential threat we all continue to face.
 
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Andrew C

You know what's funny?
However, there’s no reason an employer or a business should not be allowed to require people to be vaccinated to work in their facilities or even visit them as a customer.
I do think the decision for an employer to go this route isn’t as black and white as some want to make it out to be.
And we need to be careful about when the government may want to overstep.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
I do think the decision for an employer to go this route isn’t as black and white as some want to make it out to be.
And we need to be careful about when the government may want to overstep.
Eternal vigilance against government overreach is necessary. But the idea that a vaccine mandate during an unprecedented pandemic is the hill to die on is very strange indeed.

Are laws prohibiting drinking and driving government overreach?
 
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