Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[DisneyCane]

First of all, to even be considered to for the speech to be restricted, it has to be "false" to begin with. I'm not up to speed with what talking heads may be saying because I don't watch political TV or any news. However, if they are saying that there are nanobots in the vaccine, that would be false. If they are saying the vaccines aren't fully approved or some number of people died after being vaccinated they aren't making false statements.

Second, to be allowed to be restricted, the Supreme Court has relied on both the "bad tendency test" and the "clear and present danger" test. Nothing about vaccines could fail the "bad tendency test" because there is no illegal activity for the speech to incite or cause.

On "clear and present danger" I doubt that a case could be made that by making statements which are "anti-vaccine" the statements will bring about the substantive evils that the United States Congress has a right to prevent. You'd have a hard time making a case that involuntary catching and unknowingly spreading an infectious disease constitutes a "substantive evil."

 

[Tony the Tigger]

if there is a public health emergency

If ??!!!

 

[DisneyCane]

Extensive study shows fully vaxxed folks had LOWER viral load in their nasal cavity than partially or no vaxxed people supporting decreased potential for spreading Delta. First crack in the CDC's argument.

The first crack in the CDCs argument was when they cited the Provincetown outbreak as a key factor in their decision. This study continues to open up the chasm. The CDCs real motivation was to get unvaccinated people to wear masks but instead of saying that, they used tenuous, at best, data to justify doing a 180 on the guidance for fully vaccinated people.

 

[Willmark]

The slippery slope argument doesn't apply here. This is a global pandemic with variants that can kill people in a week or two, including young and previously healthy in large numbers who are also providers and caretakers of family members. The question then doesn't become anything. Covid-19 and now its variants have made the situation worse and will continue to do so without real mitigation measures which are easily available.
We live in a truly amazing age of science where a menace invisible to the naked eye which kills people quickly can indeed be dealt with by preventative means and we are being held back by at least some people who somehow lead others with what could almost be called primitive superstition and in some cases is just that.
"The mark of the beast"

Read what I wrote again.

 

[DisneyCane]

If ??!!!

In the legal sense there isn't one. The Surgeon General is the one who declares public health emergencies and ends them. He ended it around two months ago. He'd have to declare a new one and then he'd have the power to mandate vaccination.

 

[correcaminos]

I’m not judging those who truly can’t vaccinate. We need to protect them by vaccinating everyone we can.

But there are extremely few adults who truly can’t vaccinate. Less than 1 in 1,000. Meanwhile, you have tons of people falsely claiming they can’t vaccinate, falsely claiming medical or religious reasons. Just as you’ve had lots of people falsely claiming they couldn’t wear masks.

Additionally, and I say this after consulting with 2 infectious disease physicians, any unvaccinated adult should pretty much be in lockdown right now. The disease is too prevalent for an unvaccinated adult to be dining indoors at restaurants or other high risk scenarios. One of the ID physicians I spoke with also felt children under 12 should avoid such scenarios though the other physician felt the risk was still low enough in young children.

Saying “unvaccinated adults” should avoid high risk situations isn’t a punishment.
The NYC mandates aren’t about punishing unvaccinated people. They are about public safety. The virus doesn’t care WHY you’re unvaccinated.

Yes, the virus is indeed harsh. The virus won’t leave a person alone simply because they have a good reason to go unvaccinated.

I’m not judging anyone. The virus doesn’t judge. In the eyes of the virus, all unvaccinated people are alike. Regardless of their intent.

I think you need to understand that just because you spoke to 2 physicians doesn't mean that others who actually are unable to vax will receive the exact same advice as you. I have no idea why you spoke to them either. I trust the PP you jumped on to have done their own medical discussions.

Let's be honest here, not all people vaccinated or unvaccinated are alike when it comes to the virus. Not all have the same outcome and in some cases we have no clue why.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

In the legal sense there isn't one. The Surgeon General is the one who declares public health emergencies and ends them. He ended it around two months ago. He'd have to declare a new one and then he'd have the power to mandate vaccination.

Oh, give me a break.

 

[techgeek]

On "clear and present danger" I doubt that a case could be made that by making statements which are "anti-vaccine" the statements will bring about the substantive evils that the United States Congress has a right to prevent. You'd have a hard time making a case that involuntary catching and unknowingly spreading an infectious disease constitutes a "substantive evil."

Isn’t that pretty much exactly what happened in this situation? -

Judge Upholds Mandatory Measles Vaccinations As New York Closes More Schools

Judge Lawrence Knipel refused a request from parents to lift the vaccination order that was imposed last week to stem a measles outbreak. The parents claimed the city had overstepped its authority.

www.npr.org

 

[DisneyDebRob]

A quarter of unvaccinated adults say they will get a shot by the end of the year? Unreal. That and more stupidity in the most recent poll!

Poll: Vaccinated adults are more concerned about delta variant of COVID -19 than the unvaccinated

Vaccinated adults are nearly twice as likely to worry that new variants like delta will worsen the pandemic nationally and locally, a new poll shows.

www.google.com

 

[drizgirl]

Past vaccine disasters show why rushing a coronavirus vaccine now would be 'colossally stupid' | CNN

Vaccine experts are warning the federal government against rushing out a coronavirus vaccine before testing has shown it's both safe and effective. Decades of history show why they're right.

www.cnn.com

I am not CNN fan, and I distrust them, but these boards have shown to love them, so if CNN can cast doubt of a rushed vaccine, I cant imagine why other people can't. But no, you wont let them cast doubt, or think for themselves. Dark stuff man, dark stuff.

LOL, that was pre-election. Of course they said that.

Is someone here an expert in federal vaccine mandate law and a Walt Disney World fanatic? LMAO

That's quite a venn diagram in my head now.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

Extensive study shows fully vaxxed folks had LOWER viral load in their nasal cavity than partially or no vaxxed people supporting decreased potential for spreading Delta. First crack in the CDC's argument.

This is why we shouldn't latch onto one statement by one entity and take it as gospel, generally speaking, even if that entity is saying what we wish were true. We take these reports and factor them all into our collective knowledge about the situation.

I have been troubled by this from the beginning of the pandemic. One study is done, one situation happens, and the media amplifies it as if it's a universal truth of natural law. No, it's one study. OK, I'll take that information under advisement. (And I'm not a media basher.)

I don't just blindly believe everything the CDC says. Show me the receipts! When they said it was OK to stop masking indoors, I suspected political motives behind that. It didn't make sense vs. all the other cumulative information I'd absorbed about this pandemic from the beginning.

Just like the nonsense about "kids can't catch it." Really? Low numbers of cases in kids over the first summer, and the conclusion people drew was kids can't catch it? That defies all logic. If a virus can attack a human organism, then it attacks all human organisms. Kids aren't magic. I thought it was much more likely they were just more sheltered. They were home from school. They had parents prohibiting them from high risk behavior. Yes, of course it makes sense they have better immune systems, but it doesn't make sense to say they are unlikely to be infected at all. And what are we seeing now? Sadly, more young people and kids are getting it.

People need to think, pay attention, and not blindly follow anything or anyone.

So when I see the CDC's recent announcements and learn of their reasons behind them, I don't respond in black and white, "This is the case now." I take it with everything else I know, including anecdotal evidence from family and friends, and I think, "OK, so people who are double vaccinated are more vulnerable with Delta than with the previous variant. Got it. I'll adjust my behavior accordingly." I don't care who is right or wrong or what side they're on. I will err on the side of caution when it comes to potentially dying or killing someone. If it turns out they're completely wrong, I lost nothing by wearing a mask more often while vaccinated. (And I don't say, "OMG, they got something wrong, I can't believe anything they say!") But chances are, they're not completely wrong, there is some truth to what they are saying, and therefore there is some higher risk than we originally thought or were told.

 

[LaughingGravy]

A quarter of unvaccinated adults say they will get a shot by the end of the year? Unreal. That and more stupidity in the most recent poll!

Poll: Vaccinated adults are more concerned about delta variant of COVID -19 than the unvaccinated

Vaccinated adults are nearly twice as likely to worry that new variants like delta will worsen the pandemic nationally and locally, a new poll shows.

www.google.com

Yup. Stupid is going to hurt a whole lot before the end of the year is here.

 

[DisneyCane]

Isn’t that pretty much exactly what happened in this situation? -

Judge Upholds Mandatory Measles Vaccinations As New York Closes More Schools

Judge Lawrence Knipel refused a request from parents to lift the vaccination order that was imposed last week to stem a measles outbreak. The parents claimed the city had overstepped its authority.

www.npr.org

No. @Phil12 was saying that people making "false and dangerous" anti-vaccine statements should be silenced and that it wouldn't violate the First Amendment to have the government silence them. This story is just about upholding mandatory vaccination which is definitely established as constitutional.

 

[DisneyCane]

A quarter of unvaccinated adults say they will get a shot by the end of the year? Unreal. That and more stupidity in the most recent poll!

Poll: Vaccinated adults are more concerned about delta variant of COVID -19 than the unvaccinated

Vaccinated adults are nearly twice as likely to worry that new variants like delta will worsen the pandemic nationally and locally, a new poll shows.

www.google.com

Also, four out of 10 vaccinated adults worry they personally will get sick compared to 27% of unvaccinated adults.

While the opinions of the unvaccinated can be considered to be "stupid" in their own right, it is also "stupid" for 40% of vaccinated adults to be worried about getting sick. Based on the data (both trial and out in the field) about the effectiveness of the vaccines there is no reason to be "worried" about getting sick if you are fully vaccinated.

 

[Lilofan]

This is why we shouldn't latch onto one statement by one entity and take it as gospel, generally speaking, even if that entity is saying what we wish were true. We take these reports and factor them all into our collective knowledge about the situation.

I have been troubled by this from the beginning of the pandemic. One study is done, one situation happens, and the media amplifies it as if it's a universal truth of natural law. No, it's one study. OK, I'll take that information under advisement. (And I'm not a media basher.)

I don't just blindly believe everything the CDC says. Show me the receipts! When they said it was OK to stop masking indoors, I suspected political motives behind that. It didn't make sense vs. all the other cumulative information I'd absorbed about this pandemic from the beginning.

Just like the nonsense about "kids can't catch it." Really? Low numbers of cases in kids over the first summer, and the conclusion people drew was kids can't catch it? That defies all logic. If a virus can attack a human organism, then it attacks all human organisms. Kids aren't magic. I thought it was much more likely they were just more sheltered. They were home from school. They had parents prohibiting them from high risk behavior. Yes, of course it makes sense they have better immune systems, but it doesn't make sense to say they are unlikely to be infected at all. And what are we seeing now? Sadly, more young people and kids are getting it.

People need to think, pay attention, and not blindly follow anything or anyone.

So when I see the CDC's recent announcements and learn of their reasons behind them, I don't respond in black and white, "This is the case now." I take it with everything else I know, including anecdotal evidence from family and friends, and I think, "OK, so people who are double vaccinated are more vulnerable with Delta than with the previous variant. Got it. I'll adjust my behavior accordingly." I don't care who is right or wrong or what side they're on. I will err on the side of caution when it comes to potentially dying or killing someone. If it turns out they're completely wrong, I lost nothing by wearing a mask more often while vaccinated. (And I don't say, "OMG, they got something wrong, I can't believe anything they say!") But chances are, they're not completely wrong, there is some truth to what they are saying, and therefore there is some higher risk than we originally thought or were told.

It doesn't help when the one in charge of FL frowns upon a mask mandate regarding FL schools. School hasn't even started yet but in the Orlando area ( Orange County ) there are already 2 dozen confirmed Covid cases among Orange County school officials.

 

[havoc315]

I think you need to understand that just because you spoke to 2 physicians doesn't mean that others who actually are unable to vax will receive the exact same advice as you. I have no idea why you spoke to them either. I trust the PP you jumped on to have done their own medical discussions.

Let's be honest here, not all people vaccinated or unvaccinated are alike when it comes to the virus. Not all have the same outcome and in some cases we have no clue why.

I spoke to them because professionally, I'm helping to draft policy guidance.
And the medical guidance I'm receiving is that unvaccinated adults should not be allowed indoors into high risk environments.

You say you trust the unvaccinated to make their own medical decisions. That's fine. But cities and businesses can decide, for public safety, to ban those unvaccinated people from high risk settings. Because those unvaccinated people are endangering themselves and others.

Put another way --- John Doe says he spoke to his doctor, and his doctor says he shouldn't get the vaccine, but it's still safe for him to go to restaurants. (by the way, any doctor who would say that is committing medical malpractice, but so be it). Restaurant Owner Smith speaks to his doctor, his doctor says you shouldn't let unvaccinated people into your restaurant during this period of high transmission.
So you trust John Doe's discussion with his doctor, but you don't trust Restaurant Owner Smith's discussion with his doctor?

 

[Andrew C]

The CDCs real motivation was to get unvaccinated people to wear masks

Of course. I never doubted that and declared so here. They always wanted to unvaccinated to wear masks, but they felt the honors system wasn't working. The viral load stuff was always an excuse the justify everyone wearing masks. Honestly would have been, "The majority of the unvaccinated are being jerks for refusing the get vaccinated, and on top of that, many are not mitigating. So because of their silliness, we will make everyone else suffer the consequences."

I can see why they avoided my rhetoric, however.

 

[correcaminos]

I spoke to them because professionally, I'm helping to draft policy guidance.
And the medical guidance I'm receiving is that unvaccinated adults should not be allowed indoors into high risk environments.

You say you trust the unvaccinated to make their own medical decisions. That's fine. But cities and businesses can decide, for public safety, to ban those unvaccinated people from high risk settings. Because those unvaccinated people are endangering themselves and others.

Put another way --- John Doe says he spoke to his doctor, and his doctor says he shouldn't get the vaccine, but it's still safe for him to go to restaurants. (by the way, any doctor who would say that is committing medical malpractice, but so be it). Restaurant Owner Smith speaks to his doctor, his doctor says you shouldn't let unvaccinated people into your restaurant during this period of high transmission.
So you trust John Doe's discussion with his doctor, but you don't trust Restaurant Owner Smith's discussion with his doctor?

No, I said I trust THAT POSTER to have down their own medical discussions. I am saying that they may not have what you got from your two ID physicians. I am saying what you did to the poster here was really uncool. How many times must I repeat that?

I really don't care if you are the one "guiding policy" for work or not. A poster here was honestly treated crappily by you and you need to own that. You do tend to be super negative about covid even compared to me, so realize that what you heard might be your own brain telling you how bad it should be. You have no right to tell another poster here what to do - which is what you did.

If this makes no sense or you care to continue to to argue it with me, then I'm out. If I were you, I'd apologize to the poster and stop acting like what you think is the end all be all for everyone who cannot vaccinate. Those who CANNOT vaccinate are a different group than those who choose not to as well. Acknowledge they are likely speaking to more knowledgable people than even you are.

Even saying that any doctor who says someone shouldn't vaccinate is committing malpractice shows your incredibly bad bias and judgment towards people who are not like you.

 

[LittleBuford]

The slippery slope argument doesn't apply here.

I disagree. Denying medical treatment to people is unethical full stop, and a very dangerous path to go down. The greater good is never well served by letting fellow human beings suffer.

 

[LaughingGravy]

I disagree. Denying medical treatment to people is unethical full stop, and a very dangerous path to go down. The greater good is never well served by letting fellow human beings suffer.

Not denying medical treatment, but refusing to pay for it by insurance. Some people will not be motivated to do anything unless it hits them in the wallet or the threat of such if rules aren't followed, like a speeding ticket or not paying taxes.