Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Touchdown]

While the opinions of the unvaccinated can be considered to be "stupid" in their own right, it is also "stupid" for 40% of vaccinated adults to be worried about getting sick. Based on the data (both trial and out in the field) about the effectiveness of the vaccines there is no reason to be "worried" about getting sick if you are fully vaccinated.

I’m one of those 40% I’m not particularly worried about long term effects on me but I am worried about:

-Having to call in sick for 2 weeks
-Potentially spreading it to my unvaccinated (ineligible, kids) family members
-And of course I’m worried (but much less so) about a vaccine escape varient.

So am I wrong?

 

[correcaminos]

It is not hateful rhetoric. WDW , NYC regarding customers frequenting NYC business , elected officials , companies stepping up and requiring staff to get vaccinated is the right thing to do. More companies are starting to follow .

There is this level which is not hateful rhetoric. There have been some saying we should stop treating unvaccinated covid patients here though. Those are hateful. Even saying that a non-vaccinated needs to pay OOP isn't kind either. There's a mixed bag here of people to be fair.

I know many are frustrated as I get sometimes, but some do take it to a level that is above and beyond "okay" to me. Sometimes it hits on both ends of the spectrum too. Nothing in life should be so black and white that there isn't a gray area to think about and try to understand.

 

[LittleBuford]

Not denying medical treatment, but refusing to pay for it by insurance. Some people will not be motivated to do anything unless it hits them in the wallet or the threat of such if rules aren't followed, like a speeding ticket or not paying taxes.

That’s denial by another means. And what would you propose for somewhere like the UK, where healthcare is free? How should we punish the “stupid” there once they get to hospital in need of life-saving treatment?

 

[correcaminos]

Not denying medical treatment, but refusing to pay for it by insurance. Some people will not be motivated to do anything unless it hits them in the wallet or the threat of such if rules aren't followed, like a speeding ticket or not paying taxes.

That's still pretty darn uncool. I can go with having higher premiums to pay, but flat out denying? I thought we were well past that here in the US. Spoken as someone who has one kid because insurance did deny coverage of future pregnancies at one point due to a very high risk issue I had. They also denied birth control coverage too so I felt a bit um, yeah well, no. I wasn't even allowed to pay a higher premium to have coverage at that time.

We also don't know how many of these unvaccinated are because they cannot get time off work. They cannot afford to take "sick days" just to be vaccinated. They cannot afford childcare. They need a reassuring voice or hand or heart to listen and help them through valid medical fears. They often are the ones who financially would be ruined if you forced them to pay for their treatment. But sure, let's be heartless and not understanding at all.

This is the type of mentality that I don't understand. While I get frustrated and want every single person who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated, I still have compassion.

 

[GoofGoof]

Maybe some of the people wishing ill on the unvaccinated - job loss, loss of freedom etc - should stop and think about their hateful rhetoric. Alas there are some very mean people on this board.

I wish everyone would stop and think about the bigger picture on all of this. I have been trying to say for months now that the unvaccinated are not all anti-vaxx or politically motivated or QAnon conspiracy theorists. Some are just people who are legitimately hesitant or skeptical of the vaccines. When people label them and call them names and propose punishments that does nothing to get them to change their minds. We are all frustrated with the current situation. We have a miracle vaccine that turned out to be more effective than anyone could have imagined and is really quite safe considering the extremely rare serious adverse reactions and the billions who have gotten them. It’s tragic that more people haven‘t taken it, but we, the vaccinated, cannot do much more other than try to encourage the unvaccinated to go in. The only way out of this is getting enough people vaccinated.

On the flip side the unvaccinated need to also take a step back and look at the big picture. Seek advice from real experts not talking heads or Facebook MDs. Understand the real risks of both the vaccines and getting Covid. Do a real risk assessment of the 2 instead of latching onto the clickbait headlines and talking points being repeated over and over and over again. Take a step back and consider the possibility that maybe you are wrong. Even after all of this if you don’t think the reward is worth the risk have the courage to put the good of the country and society ahead of yourself and get the vaccine anyway because it’s a fact that if we don’t get enough people vaccinated this will not end any time soon. Many people throughout history have risked much more for the good of the country. Think about it.

I do not believe the government should mandate vaccinations. However, I have no issue with corporations requiring them for workers and I have no issue with non-essential private businesses requiring them for customers. I don’t see this as a punishment on the unvaccinated but rather as a way to keep your business open and keep your workers safe. Once all kids are eligible I see no issue with schools requiring the vaccine for students either. The unvaccinated need to realize that they are the problem right now. They are preventing a full return to normal so while I do not support attacking them or petty name calling there may end up being consequences from their inaction. It didn’t have to be this way, but people had ample time to make the call.

 

[drizgirl]

Of course. I never doubted that and declared so here. They always wanted to unvaccinated to wear masks, but they felt the honors system wasn't working. The viral load stuff was always an excuse the justify everyone wearing masks. Honestly would have been, "The majority of the unvaccinated are being jerks for refusing the get vaccinated, and on top of that, many are not mitigating. So because of their silliness, we will make everyone else suffer the consequences."

I can see why they avoided my rhetoric, however.

And it would have avoided further undermining confidence in the vaccine.

 

[havoc315]

No, I said I trust THAT POSTER to have down their own medical discussions. I am saying that they may not have what you got from your two ID physicians. I am saying what you did to the poster here was really uncool. How many times must I repeat that?

I really don't care if you are the one "guiding policy" for work or not. A poster here was honestly treated crappily by you and you need to own that.

My intent was not to treat anyone "crappily" and I apologize if my direct style hurt anyone's feelings.

You do tend to be super negative about covid even compared to me, so realize that what you heard might be your own brain telling you how bad it should be. You have no right to tell another poster here what to do - which is what you did.

I apologize if my tone ruffled feathers, but we all in this thread routinely are discussing what people should do. How many thousands of posts of people should get vaccinated, people should wear masks (especially pre-vaccine), etc.
If you are unvaccinated, you should not be in high risk situations right now. That shouldn't be a controversial statement. In the end, within the bounds of the law, anybody can do anything they want. The law is quickly becoming in some places, that you can't do certain things if you're unvaccinated.

If this makes no sense or you care to continue to to argue it with me, then I'm out. If I were you, I'd apologize to the poster and stop acting like what you think is the end all be all for everyone who cannot vaccinate.

What I think is irrelevant. My personal opinions have no bearing. Nobody's personal opinions have no bearing. But NYC policy is not a personal opinion. It is public policy crafted with medical guidance. Not a personal opinion. You and I can both think whatever we want personally. But in the end, we both have to comply with policy.

Those who CANNOT vaccinate are a different group than those who choose not to as well.

The virus cannot tell them apart. That's not my personal opinion. That's a fact.

Acknowledge they are likely speaking to more knowledgable people than even you are.

Even saying that any doctor who says someone shouldn't vaccinate is committing malpractice shows your incredibly bad bias and judgment towards people who are not like you.

First, you misquoted me -- I didn't say it was malpractice to recommend against vaccination. I said it would be malpractice to tell someone who is unvaccinated that it is perfectly safe for them to go around into high transmission risk situations during the current surge. That would be malpractice. And that's not bias -- That's my job. I've spent almost 20 years advising on medical malpractice, I know it inside and out.
If a doctor tells an unvaccinated patient that it is perfectly safe for them to go into restaurants in high transmissions areas, go into high risk situations --- That is medical malpractice. That's not my personal opinion. That's my professional opinion.

For mainstream media support:

Should Unvaccinated People Avoid Restaurants Completely?

The available evidence suggests it would be a good idea.

www.grubstreet.com

"Dr. Jonathan Reiner of George Washington University, has gone so far as to say that the unvaccinated “should probably not eat at a restaurant” because they “are at great risk of becoming infected.”
I emailed Dr. Purvi Parikh, an allergist and immunologist at NYU Langone Health, to ask about this. She replied, “Unvaccinated people should be very worried” about their health when going into restaurants. “I would be more cautious if you live in an area where vaccination rates are low or if you are a high-risk individual especially with indoor dining,” she added."

 

[Heppenheimer]

That's still pretty darn uncool. I can go with having higher premiums to pay, but flat out denying? I thought we were well past that here in the US. Spoken as someone who has one kid because insurance did deny coverage of future pregnancies at one point due to a very high risk issue I had. They also denied birth control coverage too so I felt a bit um, yeah well, no. I wasn't even allowed to pay a higher premium to have coverage at that time.

We also don't know how many of these unvaccinated are because they cannot get time off work. They cannot afford to take "sick days" just to be vaccinated. They cannot afford childcare. They need a reassuring voice or hand or heart to listen and help them through valid medical fears. They often are the ones who financially would be ruined if you forced them to pay for their treatment. But sure, let's be heartless and not understanding at all.

This is the type of mentality that I don't understand. While I get frustrated and want every single person who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated, I still have compassion.

The stick and carrot approach is needed, and has precedent. Putting people into personal bankruptcy because of uncovered health care costs might seem like just deserts on a personal level, but on a macroeconomic level, it really isn't something that is to society's benefit. Hence, I fully support insurance premium discounts, tax incentives and vaccine passports, but as a physician, who gets what care isn't based on what some might consider "fair", it is simply based on need and available resources at any given time.

 

[correcaminos]

The stick and carrot approach is needed, and has precedent. Putting people into personal bankruptcy because of uncovered health care costs might seem like just deserts on a personal level, but on a macroeconomic level, it really isn't something that is to society's benefit. Hence, I fully support insurance premium discounts, tax incentives and vaccine passports, but as a physician, who gets what care isn't based on what some might consider "fair", it is simply based on need and available resources at any given time.

Very well said.

I am all for offering good incentives to others who are not vaccinated. I am great with reaching people who actually could use $1k to cover loss of hours and childcare if they need it. I'm all good with dangling carrots!

My intent was not to treat anyone "crappily" and I apologize if my direct style hurt anyone's feelings.



I apologize if my tone ruffled feathers, but we all in this thread routinely are discussing what people should do. How many thousands of posts of people should get vaccinated, people should wear masks (especially pre-vaccine), etc.
If you are unvaccinated, you should not be in high risk situations right now. That shouldn't be a controversial statement. In the end, within the bounds of the law, anybody can do anything they want. The law is quickly becoming in some places, that you can't do certain things if you're unvaccinated.



What I think is irrelevant. My personal opinions have no bearing. Nobody's personal opinions have no bearing. But NYC policy is not a personal opinion. It is public policy crafted with medical guidance. Not a personal opinion. You and I can both think whatever we want personally. But in the end, we both have to comply with policy.



The virus cannot tell them apart. That's not my personal opinion. That's a fact.


First, you misquoted me -- I didn't say it was malpractice to recommend against vaccination. I said it would be malpractice to tell someone who is unvaccinated that it is perfectly safe for them to go around into high transmission risk situations during the current surge. That would be malpractice. And that's not bias -- That's my job. I've spent almost 20 years advising on medical malpractice, I know it inside and out.
If a doctor tells an unvaccinated patient that it is perfectly safe for them to go into restaurants in high transmissions areas, go into high risk situations --- That is medical malpractice. That's not my personal opinion. That's my professional opinion.

For mainstream media support:

Should Unvaccinated People Avoid Restaurants Completely?

The available evidence suggests it would be a good idea.

www.grubstreet.com

"Dr. Jonathan Reiner of George Washington University, has gone so far as to say that the unvaccinated “should probably not eat at a restaurant” because they “are at great risk of becoming infected.”
I emailed Dr. Purvi Parikh, an allergist and immunologist at NYU Langone Health, to ask about this. She replied, “Unvaccinated people should be very worried” about their health when going into restaurants. “I would be more cautious if you live in an area where vaccination rates are low or if you are a high-risk individual especially with indoor dining,” she added."

I'm not the one who should get the apology.

You need to realize that sometimes arguing just to prove your point is not really the right answer. I absolutely didn't need another doctor quoted to prove your point. I get your point. You've missed mine repeatedly. I'll say again I'm out. Enjoy your day.

 

[Lilofan]

That's still pretty darn uncool. I can go with having higher premiums to pay, but flat out denying? I thought we were well past that here in the US. Spoken as someone who has one kid because insurance did deny coverage of future pregnancies at one point due to a very high risk issue I had. They also denied birth control coverage too so I felt a bit um, yeah well, no. I wasn't even allowed to pay a higher premium to have coverage at that time.

We also don't know how many of these unvaccinated are because they cannot get time off work. They cannot afford to take "sick days" just to be vaccinated. They cannot afford childcare. They need a reassuring voice or hand or heart to listen and help them through valid medical fears. They often are the ones who financially would be ruined if you forced them to pay for their treatment. But sure, let's be heartless and not understanding at all.

This is the type of mentality that I don't understand. While I get frustrated and want every single person who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated, I still have compassion.

Some vaccine locations are open 7 days a week so the opinion on unvaccinated cannot get time off to get a vaccine is in question but some would question my opinion as not caring.

 

[Virtual Toad]

Maybe some of the people wishing ill on the unvaccinated - job loss, loss of freedom etc - should stop and think about their hateful rhetoric. Alas there are some very mean people on this board.

Please just stop. Those who have played by the rules during this global health emergency are understandably furious at those who refuse to do their part.

Let’s talk about loss of freedom. My children have stayed home and studied virtually for a year and a half, sacrificing their own freedom— to keep their parents, grandparents, and community safe. To do what they could to help all of us get out of this.

They sacrificed a great deal of their own freedom. Because they knew it was the right thing to do.

Each and every member of our family got vaccinated as soon as we were able to do so. And like so many others, we stayed home, gave up social gatherings and vacations and job opportunities and more. A week from now, my children go back to school. And our leaders have chosen to sacrifice children’s safety by thumbing their noses at the CDC’s mask guidelines in a cynical, disingenuous and callously calculated manner. I think that would make any parent furious. After all this, we feel like the world around us is still stuck in the unnecessary quagmire this crisis has become.

So yes, there’s some anger to be had. We’ve put up with those who seek to profit personally and/or financially by spreading destructive and deadly disinformation. We’ve tried to be patient as we’ve endured a virtual epidemic of stupidity and toddler-grade temper tantrums over vaccines, mask wearing, and so much more for quite some time now.

Anyone able but refusing to get vaccinated or abide by public health rules at this point can certainly continue to defy common sense and stand up for their “freedoms” if they so choose. But for irresponsible people not to expect pushback from those who have actually been doing something positive to get us out of this mess, often by sacrificing their own freedom in the process, is a bridge too far. I’m sorry that some feel folks are being mean. But lot of people have had enough of trying to do the right thing while others willfully try to hold everyone back.

So, yes, there’s a lot of anger aimed right now at folks who are able but refusing to be vaccinated. But as others have said, freedom of choice does not mean freedom from consequences.

 

[correcaminos]

Some vaccine locations are open 7 days a week so the opinion on unvaccinated cannot get time off to get a vaccine is in question but some would question my opinion as not caring.

Let's do it this way. Do you have the ability to, at less than a day's notice, take off time to do a trial appointment that lasts 4 hours long? I can do it, why cannot everyone? I mean doesn't everyone have total flexibility to do it? In short 7 days a week during business hours isn't always enough.

We need to realize that 7 days a week doesn't cover those with two jobs, or different hours, or those in need of childcare, or those in need of reliable transportation, or those who will need to take a day off because they re in that smaller group who will run fevers for a work day or so. Not everyone is privileged enough to have a 9-5 job 5 days a week and have support to do what is needed to take the shot.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Let's do it this way. Do you have the ability to, at less than a day's notice, take off time to do a trial appointment that lasts 4 hours long? I can do it, why cannot everyone? I mean doesn't everyone have total flexibility to do it? In short 7 days a week during business hours isn't always enough.

We need to realize that 7 days a week doesn't cover those with two jobs, or different hours, or those in need of childcare, or those in need of reliable transportation, or those who will need to take a day off because they re in that smaller group who will run fevers for a work day or so. Not everyone is privileged enough to have a 9-5 job 5 days a week and have support to do what is needed to take the shot.

So, we need to bring vaccination teams to the workplace, and other locations to make it as convenient as possible. In Vermont, the National Guard has set up temporary vaccination clinics in locations to make it as convenient as possible- outside of grocery stores, Dollar General, gas stations, convenience stores, country stores, suboxone clinics, fast food restaurants, etc. Any place that gets a lot of foot traffic.

But if all that still fails, time to use the stick. We can make things as easy as possible, but individuals, when all is said and done, are still responsible for themselves. There needs to be at least some personal initiative, or this pandemic will go on much longer than it should.

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Please just stop. Those who have played by the rules during this global health emergency are understandably furious at those who refuse to do their part.

Let’s talk about loss of freedom. My children have stayed home and studied virtually for a year and a half, sacrificing their own freedom— to keep their parents, grandparents, and community safe. To do what they could to help all of us get out of this.

They sacrificed a great deal of their own freedom. Because they knew it was the right thing to do.

Each and every member of our family got vaccinated as soon as we were able to do so. And like so many others, we stayed home, gave up social gatherings and vacations and job opportunities and more. A week from now, my children go back to school. And our leaders have chosen to sacrifice children’s safety by thumbing their noses at the CDC’s mask guidelines in a cynical, disingenuous and callously calculated manner. I think that would make any parent furious. After all this, we feel like the world around us is still stuck in the unnecessary quagmire this crisis has become.

So yes, there’s some anger to be had. We’ve put up with those who seek to profit personally and/or financially by spreading destructive and deadly disinformation. We’ve tried to be patient as we’ve endured a virtual epidemic of stupidity and toddler-grade temper tantrums over vaccines, mask wearing, and so much more for quite some time now.

Anyone able but refusing to get vaccinated or abide by public health rules at this point can certainly continue to defy common sense and stand up for their “freedoms” if they so choose. But for irresponsible people not to expect pushback from those who have actually been doing something positive to get us out of this mess, often by sacrificing their own freedom in the process, is a bridge too far. I’m sorry that some feel folks are being mean. But lot of people have had enough of trying to do the right thing while others willfully try to hold everyone back.

So, yes, there’s a lot of anger aimed right now at folks who are able but refusing to be vaccinated. But as others have said, freedom of choice does not mean freedom from consequences.

I nominate this for post of the year.

 

[LaughingGravy]

That’s denial by another means. And what would you propose for somewhere like the UK, where healthcare is free? How should we punish the “stupid” there once they get to hospital in need of life-saving treatment?

I don't have a solution for the UK, but for the US, where we have plenty of really good vaccines and an abundance of stubborn people, this is one.

 

[correcaminos]

So, we need to bring vaccination teams to the workplace, and other locations to make it as convenient as possible. In Vermont, the National Guard has set up temporary vaccination clinics in locations to make it as convenient as possible- outside of grocery stores, Dollar General, gas stations, convenience stores, country stores, suboxone clinics, fast food restaurants, etc. Any place that gets a lot of foot traffic.

But if all that still fails, time to use the stick. We can make things as easy as possible, but individuals, when all is said and done, are still responsible for themselves. There needs to be at least some personal initiative, or this pandemic will go on much longer than it should.

We also need jobs to offer paid time off in case one is fevered or whatever. Doesn't help everything, but it can really help. Businesses should really push for vaccines too. My husband's company has - given the global nature they cannot mandate at the time, but they did bring vaccines into their Indian office a couple months ago. This helped keep others from having to cover if others were out sick (20% were out at once so this was a struggle).

I am all for offering incentives. Immediate ones too since lotteries and whatever don't work. Anything to get the last groups left.

 

[Lilofan]

We also need jobs to offer paid time off in case one is fevered or whatever. Doesn't help everything, but it can really help. Businesses should really push for vaccines too. My husband's company has - given the global nature they cannot mandate at the time, but they did bring vaccines into their Indian office a couple months ago. This helped keep others from having to cover if others were out sick (20% were out at once so this was a struggle).

I am all for offering incentives. Immediate ones too since lotteries and whatever don't work. Anything to get the last groups left.

The ones who are unvaccinated and have contacted covid and or their family and friends have contacted covid sends a wake up call for some to realize to finally get the shot.

 

[GoofGoof]

We also need jobs to offer paid time off in case one is fevered or whatever. Doesn't help everything, but it can really help.

I was about to post this to your last reply…great minds think alike

One of the biggest misses related to the vaccination rollout is the Federal Government should have mandated that all employers provide paid sick leave per shot for anyone vaccinated as well as paid sick leave for anyone asked to quarantine. Companies could then be reimbursed by the Federal government through tax incentives. It’s tragically sad that there are people who actually want the vaccine or at least would be willing to take it and this is what is holding them back. There are so many really complicated issues around vaccination that are difficult to solve but this one is actually an easy problem to solve with money and considering we’ve spent trillions on Covid relief, what’s a few hundred million more.

 

[Polkadotdress]

While the opinions of the unvaccinated can be considered to be "stupid" in their own right, it is also "stupid" for 40% of vaccinated adults to be worried about getting sick. Based on the data (both trial and out in the field) about the effectiveness of the vaccines there is no reason to be "worried" about getting sick if you are fully vaccinated.

I’m one of those 40% I’m not particularly worried about long term effects on me but I am worried about:

-Having to call in sick for 2 weeks
-Potentially spreading it to my unvaccinated (ineligible, kids) family members
-And of course I’m worried (but much less so) about a vaccine escape varient.

So am I wrong?

I am also one of the 40%! Given my immunosupression, I have additional worries, despite being "fully vaxx'd."

 

[correcaminos]

I was about to post this to your last reply…great minds think alike

One of the biggest misses related to the vaccination rollout is the Federal Government should have mandated that all employers provide paid sick leave per shot for anyone vaccinated as well as paid sick leave for anyone asked to quarantine. Companies could then be reimbursed by the Federal government through tax incentives. It’s tragically sad that there are people who actually want the vaccine or at least would be willing to take it and this is what is holding them back. There are so many really complicated issues around vaccination that are difficult to solve but this one is actually an easy problem to solve with money and considering we’ve spent trillions on Covid relief, what’s a few hundred million more.

Dead on with this. We all know I am a big pusher of the vaccine, but there are issues we have not dealt with as a whole! Since I'm not a politician I feel there isn't much I can do. I have offered to schedule, drive, watch kids etc for those who have issues with those, but nationally more could be done.

The ones who are unvaccinated and have contacted covid and or their family and friends have contacted covid sends a wake up call for some to realize to finally get the shot.

Honestly having a wake up call doesn't help overcome issues of physically getting a shot.