Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[mmascari]

Keep in mind that, so far, the vaccines have been effective against all of the variants that have popped up. It is certainly possible that the virus mutates into a variant that isn't controlled by the vaccine. But it's also possible that even if we continue to have variants, the vaccine will work just fine against them. Variants rendering vaccines ineffective isn't a guarantee, even if we don't get the percentage of vaccinations we would like.

I agree. It’s very low risk and community spread is dropping every day so getting lower. The less people spreading the virus the less chance of breakthrough infection too.

It's not just "possible" that the virus will mutate, or that we'll have variants. Both of those are definitive. The virus WILL mutate, we WILL have variants. Most of those mutations and variants will be less competitive than the dominate strain circulating and will disappear, we'll never even hear about them, they'll just disappear.

In the shorter term, variants the vaccine is less effective against definitely are NOT a guarantee, as you said. It's like the virus is playing the lottery and it keeps losing, which is good for us. Get community spread low enough, and there will not be enough lottery tickets for the virus to ever win. That's the concern with not getting spread low enough if we don't vaccinate enough, it's like we're handing out free scratch offs to the virus. Hand out enough of them, and it's chances of winning increase. Vaccinate enough and this problem goes away.

I don't worry about a variant getting past the vaccine on any large scale today. I worry about us taking actions that encourage that outcome over time. Just like handing out antibiotics like candy has left us with antibiotic resistant bacteria to deal with. Or, lice resistant to the tradition chemical remedies.

 

[HarperRose]

The idea that potential future marketing should play a part in this decision is just...yeah, no. If disney wants maskless photos for posterity, they have the resources to put together photo shoots (closed set, vaccines required if desired, etc) to do that. It doesn’t require a change in park policy to do that.

Yeah, that point is nonsensical. *All* of Disney's PR is filmed either while the park is closed or made to look that way. If they want maskless advertisements for the future, they'll make them.

 

[Bill in Atlanta]

It's not a fair point. The vaccines work as they are supposed to: around 90% effective, not 100%. Also, obviously, not everyone has been vaccinated, and we are supposedly not allowed to ask for proof of vaccination. The argument is circular, the conclusion, erroneous.

I see it as a fair point in terms of public policy. There is a difference between Bill or Tony making a personal decision in light of the statistics you cite, and government actors using emergency powers to police people during a situation which is arguably not an emergency.

It doesn't. There is no "good" here. There is only new bad. Regardless of whether or not you know it, we already know it: the local mandates take the heat off the local businesses.

There absolutely are good outcomes when decision-making power is removed from government authorities and handed to individuals and business owners. The most glaring example is businesses which were forbidden to open for normal operations can decide for themselves how and whether to reopen. There are business owners in Florida (and elsewhere) who benefit here. I think we have tunnel vision when we assume that our own experience/reaction to a policy change is the only one.

 

[ABQ]

View attachment 556136
If this holds for a week or two I think CDC will reduce restrictions, because we will have less new cases than the first wave (when we weren’t testing enough.)

Another visual of each state. I know, it's tiny, but here's a link to the page.

 

[Jenny72]

The fact that cases are low in places that have fully opened is good news, but I wouldn't crow about it as if opening caused a drop in cases. At least, there's no known mechanism by which that would occur. That means something else is going on that is not under our control.

What this type of pattern (or lack of a pattern) tells me is that we still don't fully understand the virus. It has surged in ways that no one predicted, including a human tragedy in India. There are reports of re-infections there but no one really knows because it's too chaotic. This is the kind of thing that gives me pause when people say, "Epidemic over. Let's go back to normal." We could all use a little humility here.

I'll be the first to admit that I err on the cautious side (I'm sure many would say overcautious side), so I'm willing to listen. But how can we have a conversation when popular pundits are saying that the vaccine has likely killed many people (they won't tell us how many they've killed!) and Americans will be forced to get a vaccine against their will, and all kinds of flat-out nonsense? I don't know how to have a rational conversation like this.

 

[GoofGoof]

The pattern has largely become Fauci hints at upcoming change, but then the change is very incremental and disappoints many people.

His first hint at a change in guidelines for those that were vaccinated -- High expectations that vaccinated people could lift most restrictions -- Became, "it's now safe to have small gatherings with other fully vaccinated people, or a small unvaccinated low risk pod"

First hint about change to outdoor masking guidelines -- became continue to wear masks outdoors in crowded areas. But can dine outdoors without masks with vaccinated people, don't need masks when alone outdoors, small private outdoor gatherings, etc.

They literally just extended the requirement for masks on Federal regulated transportation (airlines) until September. There may be some incremental indoor masking guidelines changed soon, but nothing that gets rid of masks in indoor public gathering places.

There are multiple places where targets have been set which relax indoor masks much sooner than September. Not just red stated with Republican governors. PA has a vaccine target for mask mandates to be removed, the CA Governor said if vaccinations and case numbers continue to look good he will remove the remaining state wide restrictions in mid-June. It’s going to happen much sooner than September. If Biden and The CDC plan to release a plan which ties mask recommendations to meeting a target percent vaccinated it would be non-binding but would set a clear goal for states to achieve and also give businesses relying on the CDC a clear target to look at. I don’t know if that happens or not, but it would certainly help to unify the public in working to achieve the target.

 

[lazyboy97o]

There absolutely are good outcomes when decision-making power is removed from government authorities and handed to individuals and business owners. The most glaring example is businesses which were forbidden to open for normal operations can decide for themselves how and whether to reopen. There are business owners in Florida (and elsewhere) who benefit here. I think we have tunnel vision when we assume that our own experience/reaction to a policy change is the only one.

You say this as though there are not a myriad other conditions that determine weather or not a business can open and operate in their desired manner.

 

[DisneyFan32]

Guys, if there's no problems anymore.....by fall/winter we will have a victory of enjoy in our rest of lives with no masks and social distancing for Christmas and Thanksgiving!

 

[rogerrabbitfan9]

Honest question. Are there places in the US where adults can't get the vaccine right now?

Locally we still don’t have an excess of appointments. While any one who really wanted one can get one, if you’re time or space constrained its still not easy. I wound up driving a few counties over.

 

[Bill in Atlanta]

You say this as though there are not a myriad other conditions that determine weather or not a business can open and operate in their desired manner.

I think if you read what I was responding to, it will make more sense in context.

The FL Gov decision to remove local restrictions was unpopular with some business owners, because they felt the local restrictions added "teeth" to their policies, making enforcement easier. But it was popular with others, because they want to be more open than what the local governments were allowing.

 

[ABQ]

The fact that cases are low in places that have fully opened is good news, but I wouldn't crow about it as if opening caused a drop in cases. At least, there's no known mechanism by which that would occur. That means something else is going on that is not under our control.

I agree, for anyone to claim that cases dropped anywhere due to opening and removing restrictions is foolish. Cases drop in spite of opening up, not because of opening up. However, on the other hand, cases rose in spite of mitigation plans and restrictions not because of mitigation plans and restrictions is also a true statement, is it not?

 

[Mr. Moderate]

Guys, if there's no problems anymore.....by fall/winter we will have a victory of enjoy in our rest of lives with no masks and social distancing for Christmas and Thanksgiving!

Respectfully saying, I doubt it. From what information I'm reading and watching trends, working at a hospital, I believe we the general public will be wearing masks until next year sometime. FTR, I hate wearing masks and would love nothing more than to go back to the life we once had, but if I had to bet money, I don't think we as Americans will be out of the woods just yet. For some illogical reason, there's just too many in our country that aren't taking the vaccine, subscribe to the fear mongering out there, and in some cases, are defiant in their reasoning. The only way we can put this virus behind us is for all of us to be vaccinated and most likely on a yearly basis too. This is what some of the doctors at the hospital I work at, feel is the most likely scenario and I have to agree.

I would love nothing more to be mask free on my upcoming trip in October, but I have resigned myself not to expect it. YMMV.

 

[Heppenheimer]

It’s amazing how often doing things that have been done is considered impossible for Americans, weirdly it seems to come from many who would probably be described as exceptionalists.

I've basically been accused of hating America/wanting fascism/wanting communism, etc. on this website for suggesting that maybe we might benefit every now and again from taking some ideas from our democratic, first world peers.

 

[Figgy1]

The contradictions are incredible. "We should have incentives for vaccination. There should be a goal at which point mitigation should stop!"

Ok -- when Covid is essentially gone, reduced to a trivial level that can be easily contact traced

"That's not realistic! It can't be done! It needs to be a realistic goal!"

Well... Israel can do it.

"forget having goals, we should just lift all mitigation because... umm, freedom stuff"

Contact tracing would be wonderful if way too many people didn't start their answer with words not permitted here

 

[danlb_2000]

I see it as a fair point in terms of public policy. There is a difference between Bill or Tony making a personal decision in light of the statistics you cite, and government actors using emergency powers to police people during a situation which is arguably not an emergency.



There absolutely are good outcomes when decision-making power is removed from government authorities and handed to individuals and business owners. The most glaring example is businesses which were forbidden to open for normal operations can decide for themselves how and whether to reopen. There are business owners in Florida (and elsewhere) who benefit here. I think we have tunnel vision when we assume that our own experience/reaction to a policy change is the only one.

But can businesses be trusted to do what is right from a public health perspective even it if hurts their business?

 

[Bill in Atlanta]

Respectfully saying, I doubt it. From what information I'm reading and watching trends, working at a hospital, I believe we the general public will be wearing masks until next year sometime. FTR, I hate wearing masks and would love nothing more than to go back to the life we once had, but if I had to bet money, I don't think we as Americans will be out of the woods just yet.

The CDC guidance already allows for vaccinated people to go unmasked in most situations, so it would surprise me to see a lot of masks in 2022.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

 

[lazyboy97o]

I think if you read what I was responding to, it will make more sense in context.

The FL Gov decision to remove local restrictions was unpopular with some business owners, because they felt the local restrictions added "teeth" to their policies, making enforcement easier. But it was popular with others, because they want to be more open than what the local governments were allowing.

That situation exists in a variety of other ways. Local governments have all sorts of regulations that do not exist at the state level and differ between each other. There are bar/restaurant owners who like having a last call ordinance because they like having the teeth behind not pouring “just one more” while others wish they could be open all night. Some like the local restrictions some do not, not much different.

 

[DisneyFan32]

The CDC guidance already allows for vaccinated people to go unmasked in most situations, so it would surprise me to see a lot of masks in 2022.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated.html

We have to wear masks until 2022....NOOOOOOOOO!!! Please don't say that....

 

[mmascari]

There are multiple places where targets have been set which relax indoor masks much sooner than September. Not just red stated with Republican governors. PA has a vaccine target for mask mandates to be removed, the CA Governor said if vaccinations and case numbers continue to look good he will remove the remaining state wide restrictions in mid-June. It’s going to happen much sooner than September. If Biden and The CDC plan to release a plan which ties mask recommendations to meeting a target percent vaccinated it would be non-binding but would set a clear goal for states to achieve and also give businesses relying on the CDC a clear target to look at. I don’t know if that happens or not, but it would certainly help to unify the public in working to achieve the target.

I so wish Biden would release a national target. If for nothing else than to set the standard for the units of the measure. I dislike reading multiple goals like "60% vaccinated" only to learn later that one of them is of population, one of them is of adults, one of them is of people vaccine eligible. Which is 3 completely different goals even when they all sound the same.

I also prefer a metric like this instead of a date. We get to the metric when we get there. Meet is sooner, we adjust sooner, take longer, we deal with longer. Then, we could at least debate if the metric value it "good enough" or not.

We often say stuff like "it would be non-binding" or it's not enforceable. But, soft leadership and goal setting has value too. Everything doesn't need a punishment for it to be an effective goal. Having a national target, even if states set their own targets, some above some below, has value. It anchors the conversation, defines a metric, and allows states to argue why their goal should be higher or lower and the value that difference provides. The federal governments sets the floor level for lots of things and some states stay with that, others set more aggressive levels.

 

[Bill in Atlanta]

But can businesses be trusted to do what is right from a public health perspective even it if hurts their business?

I would argue that neither businesses nor governments can fully be trusted...but now we're getting way off topic

But more to your point, I think "what is right" varies from business to business.