Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[Heppenheimer]

r. Most of us who like to do our research count on long term data.

And this is where those pushing misinformation find their crucial in-road.

It bears repeating again and again, since this narrative constantly comes up. Out of all vaccines ever developed, the longest latency to the appearance of a severe side-effect is about 6 weeks, which is about the absolute most extreme time limit for cases of Guillan-Barre syndrome, a disease that can rarely be related to vaccination, but far more commonly associated with bowel infections. Based on this well-known history, the standard observation period for vaccine testing generally lasts about 3 months, out of an abundance of caution. Beyond that, there really isn't a conceivable biological mechanism by which a vaccine could cause a long delayed side-effect. The actual physical material of the vaccine has long since been degraded and excreted. The lasting effect of the vaccine is due to the army of white cells recruited to fight the targeted infection, not due to any lingering physical or chemical properties of the vaccine itself. If the vaccine doesn't cause a direct side-effect, the only other possibility is through an autoimmune reaction from the selected white cells. But these are fully selected and recruited within 2-4 weeks after receiving the vaccine. If there is an autoimmune reaction, it will occur then or soon thereafter, not months or years later. So, there really is experience and a firm scientific understanding on why the standard safety observation periods for vaccines, which all of the COVID vaccines underwent, is more than adequate.

Now, there is the possibility of adverse reactions too rare for the trials to pick up. We saw this with the cerebral venous sinus thrombosis associated with the AstraZenica and Johnson & Johnson vaccines. But this was not a matter of insufficient safety observation, since the temporal association of the clotting with the vaccines is pretty quick. Rather, the side effects were too rare to be seen in their testing populations, which numbered less than 50,000.

The standards for drug testing are different because unlike a vaccine, people generally take medications daily. Accumulated toxicity over years is a possibility, particularly for certain medications, so different safety standards apply. But the difference between drug and vaccine testing is not well appreciated by the general population. Hence, all the "we don't know the long term side effects" stuff that has found fertile ground through social media.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

And this is where those pushing misinformation find their crucial in-road.

It bears repeating again and again, since this narrative constantly comes up. Out of all vaccines ever developed, the longest latency to the appearance of a severe side-effect is about 6 weeks, which is about the absolute most extreme time limit for cases of Guillan-Barre syndrome, a disease that can rarely be related to vaccination, but far more commonly associated with bowel infections. Based on this well-known history, the standard observation period for vaccine testing generally lasts about 3 months, out of an abundance of caution. Beyond that, there really isn't a conceivable biological mechanism by which a vaccine could cause a long delayed side-effect. The actual physical material of the vaccine has long since been degraded and excreted. The lasting effect of the vaccine is due to the army of white cells recruited to fight the targeted infection, not due to any lingering physical or chemical properties of the vaccine itself. If the vaccine doesn't cause a direct side-effect, the only other possibility is through an autoimmune reaction from the selected white cells. But these are fully selected and recruited within 2-4 weeks after receiving the vaccine. If there is an autoimmune reaction, it will occur then or soon thereafter, not months or years later. So, there really is experience and a firm scientific understanding on why the standard safety observation periods for vaccines, which all of the COVID vaccines underwent, is more than adequate.

Now, there is the possibility of adverse reactions too rare for the trials to pick up. We saw this with the cerebral venous sinus thrombosis associated with the AstraZenica and Johnson & Johnson vaccines. But this was not a matter of insufficient safety observation, since the temporal association of the clotting with the vaccines is pretty quick. Rather, the side effects were too rare to be seen in their testing populations, which numbered less than 50,000.

The standards for drug testing are different because unlike a vaccine, people generally take medications daily. Accumulated toxicity over years is a possibility, particularly for certain medications, so different safety standards apply. But the difference between drug and vaccine testing is not well appreciated by the general population. Hence, all the "we don't know the long term side effects" stuff that has found fertile ground through social media.

Thank you for re-posting this. I wish there was a way to share it with many in the general population.

 

[SamusAranX]

So I may have won over my sister in law who was on the fence about the vaccine since she just recovered from Covid and wasn’t sure; she said it seemed testing was quick. I was able to explain research since 2003 has been ongoing and the pandemic was the impetus for all hands on deck funding. she said she will probably get one!!!

In hindsight though, she is from Texas so I should have just labeled her an anti-vax backwater hick and wrote her attitude off as garbage. Did I do that right?

 

[SamusAranX]

And this is where those pushing misinformation find their crucial in-road.

It bears repeating again and again, since this narrative constantly comes up. Out of all vaccines ever developed, the longest latency to the appearance of a severe side-effect is about 6 weeks, which is about the absolute most extreme time limit for cases of Guillan-Barre syndrome, a disease that can rarely be related to vaccination, but far more commonly associated with bowel infections. Based on this well-known history, the standard observation period for vaccine testing generally lasts about 3 months, out of an abundance of caution. Beyond that, there really isn't a conceivable biological mechanism by which a vaccine could cause a long delayed side-effect. The actual physical material of the vaccine has long since been degraded and excreted. The lasting effect of the vaccine is due to the army of white cells recruited to fight the targeted infection, not due to any lingering physical or chemical properties of the vaccine itself. If the vaccine doesn't cause a direct side-effect, the only other possibility is through an autoimmune reaction from the selected white cells. But these are fully selected and recruited within 2-4 weeks after receiving the vaccine. If there is an autoimmune reaction, it will occur then or soon thereafter, not months or years later. So, there really is experience and a firm scientific understanding on why the standard safety observation periods for vaccines, which all of the COVID vaccines underwent, is more than adequate.

Now, there is the possibility of adverse reactions too rare for the trials to pick up. We saw this with the cerebral venous sinus thrombosis associated with the AstraZenica and Johnson & Johnson vaccines. But this was not a matter of insufficient safety observation, since the temporal association of the clotting with the vaccines is pretty quick. Rather, the side effects were too rare to be seen in their testing populations, which numbered less than 50,000.

The standards for drug testing are different because unlike a vaccine, people generally take medications daily. Accumulated toxicity over years is a possibility, particularly for certain medications, so different safety standards apply. But the difference between drug and vaccine testing is not well appreciated by the general population. Hence, all the "we don't know the long term side effects" stuff that has found fertile ground through social media.

One “concern” I hear and that I’ve heard fro genuinely concerned people is this: “well the mRNA vaccine is different from past ones no? What about the spike proteins? Do we have any long term stats on that being used for treatment or vaccinations?” How would you respond to that? Cause I’m stumped at that point

 

[Mark52479]

Like I said in that thread. Very worried about fireworks, parades, and characters not returning for a while. They clearly have no problem dialing back restrictions so they should start bringing these offerings back.

I really think there will be fireworks for the 50th. I dont see a 50th celebration on Oct 1 WITHOUT fireworks at the MK.

I think Disney is just being very cautious on how they are wording things right now.

 

[correcaminos]

One “concern” I hear and that I’ve heard fro genuinely concerned people is this: “well the mRNA vaccine is different from past ones no? What about the spike proteins? Do we have any long term stats on that being used for treatment or vaccinations?” How would you respond to that? Cause I’m stumped at that point

I point to Zika trials which have been ongoing I think 5 years now. Development has been going on for decades.

 

[Think Tink]

So I may have won over my sister in law who was on the fence about the vaccine since she just recovered from Covid and wasn’t sure; she said it seemed testing was quick. I was able to explain research since 2003 has been ongoing and the pandemic was the impetus for all hands on deck funding. she said she will probably get one!!!

In hindsight though, she is from Texas so I should have just labeled her an anti-vax backwater hick and wrote her attitude off as garbage. Did I do that right?

Happy she’s considering one! My dad was on the fence, but I gave him some tough daughter love and told him I didn’t want unvaccinated people in my home for a while. He got one the next week and I gave him a rib dinner lol. I never was rude about it to him, I came at it explaining why I’m not comfortable with unvaccinated people in my house and explained why I thought the vaccines were safe and presented articles. He agreed and got the J&J one.
I don’t call the scared people anti-vaxx, I figure they are more likely to listen with kindness

 

[DCBaker]

Just got an e-mail from our Dermatologist announcing they will start offering the COVID-19 vaccine at some of their clinics.

More of this please - just make it as convenient as possible!

 

[Surferboy567]

I really think there will be fireworks for the 50th. I dont see a 50th celebration on Oct 1 WITHOUT fireworks at the MK.

I think Disney is just being very cautious on how they are wording things right now.

I hope you are right, definitely a possibility.

 

[Heppenheimer]

One “concern” I hear and that I’ve heard fro genuinely concerned people is this: “well the mRNA vaccine is different from past ones no? What about the spike proteins? Do we have any long term stats on that being used for treatment or vaccinations?” How would you respond to that? Cause I’m stumped at that point

The mRNA vaccines work via the same fundamental mechanism as any other vaccine, only the delivery vehicle is different. Rather than injecting the spike protein itself, you inject the instructions for letting your own cells manufacture the spike protein. The mRNA gets broken down into its constituent building blocks immediately after use, and is chemically identical to the RNA building blocks already present in cells. The spike proteins are picked up by the macrophages (scavenger cells of the immune system), broken up into fragments, and these fragments are then presented to immature white cells. The white cells that tightly bind to the spike protein fragments are the ones recruited and allowed to multiply- basically, your reserve army for fighting the real infection, if and when it comes.

Both the actual mRNA and the spike protein that it encodes are essentially degraded down into basic biochemical building blocks soon after they accomplish their intended function. On a molecular level, these are chemically identical to the components of the biochemical soup that is our cell cytoplasm.

 

[Nubs70]

Not even close. You have on one side - 1 cable news outlet, while other side had every large news outlet.

In the interest of public health, the FCC, in consultation with the CDC, needs to license a single news outlet to combat the rampant disinformation in today's news market.

 

[Flugell]

Why is the idea that people don't follow rules alarming? Not being rude, but genuinely curious.

While you are at it chase down all the vapers leaving the bathroom or in just about any walkway...that should keep you busy for a while

People not following rules is always alarming! As for the mitigations at Disney they were put in place for the safety of visitors. It would appearfrom the figures I have seen on this forum that herd immunity has not yet been achieved in Florida or throughout the USA. Until the cases are down further, or it is proven that herd immunity is a genuine thing which is having an impact on driving cases down then it would seem highly irresponsible to remove mitigations. Also they are Disney rules! If they choose to remove them then that is their decision and should not be the decision of the customers. No one attending Disney is guaranteed to be vaccinated or is aware of the health problems, or not, of other guests so should behave appropriately. My perspective may be influenced by not being in the USA but in the U.K. where we are taking things fairly slowly and checking spread before each level of removing restrictions.
I would also turn the question round and ask why you think it is acceptable to not follow rules that you agreed to by entering the park? You may not agree with the rules but if you undertook to follow them- why would you break them? To me that just seems irresponsible and unfair on those who want/rely on the mitigations in place.

As for the vapers, I would happily chase them down too! However they would be further down my list of reprobates as although they make life rather smelly and unpleasant they are much less likely to cause infection of a possible disease than the others! Unless of course they are infected and spreading COVID infected “smoke”!

 

[correcaminos]

Happy she’s considering one! My dad was on the fence, but I gave him some tough daughter love and told him I didn’t want unvaccinated people in my home for a while. He got one the next week and I gave him a rib dinner lol. I never was rude about it to him, I came at it explaining why I’m not comfortable with unvaccinated people in my house and explained why I thought the vaccines were safe and presented articles. He agreed and got the J&J one.
I don’t call the scared people anti-vaxx, I figure they are more likely to listen with kindness

Scared are not anti-vaxx for sure. The scared ones do need kindness. My dad repeatedly says watching me in a trial is a good argument for those who do bring up scared rebuttals. So when it came time for him, I just scheduled without questioning (his permission of course)

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Scared are not anti-vaxx for sure. The scared ones do need kindness. My dad repeatedly says watching me in a trial is a good argument for those who do bring up scared rebuttals. So when it came time for him, I just scheduled without questioning (his permission of course)

Agreed. I don't think most people would classify those with genuine concerns as anti-vaxx.

 

[correcaminos]

People not following rules is always alarming! As for the mitigations at Disney they were put in place for the safety of visitors. It would appearfrom the figures I have seen on this forum that herd immunity has not yet been achieved in Florida or throughout the USA. Until the cases are down further, or it is proven that herd immunity is a genuine thing which is having an impact on driving cases down then it would seem highly irresponsible to remove mitigations. Also they are Disney rules! If they choose to remove them then that is their decision and should not be the decision of the customers. No one attending Disney is guaranteed to be vaccinated or is aware of the health problems, or not, of other guests so should behave appropriately. My perspective may be influenced by not being in the USA but in the U.K. where we are taking things fairly slowly and checking spread before each level of removing restrictions.
I would also turn the question round and ask why you think it is acceptable to not follow rules that you agreed to by entering the park? You may not agree with the rules but if you undertook to follow them- why would you break them? To me that just seems irresponsible and unfair on those who want/rely on the mitigations in place.

As for the vapers, I would happily chase them down too! However they would be further down my list of reprobates as although they make life rather smelly and unpleasant they are much less likely to cause infection of a possible disease than the others! Unless of course they are infected and spreading COVID infected “smoke”!

But why alarming?

I'm not defending rule breakers, but rule breakers no longer alarm me. Really this is what I am not getting. I had a person not following a mandate AND breathing down my back. I told them to mask up or leave as they were in my space literally. In all my time I only had one person do something that was rude. Even then it wasn't alarming. Why? Because people are people and will do as they wish. A kind person will respect others. It goes both ways. Chasing down a rule breaker as a non worker is no better than being a rule breaker. Both are rude to do but neither is alarming.

Agreed. I don't think most people would classify those with genuine concerns as anti-vaxx.

I do have a cousin who is very much anti-vaxx and covid denier though. Totally different than friends and loved ones who were scared. The former I cannot reason with it seems. The latter, we're cool.

 

[Heppenheimer]

Reading some of these comments, it appears to me that although some of the hestitators may not be actually "anti-vaxx", they are often unknowingly being influenced by anti-vaxxers, or even worse, malignant state actors.

 

[Flugell]

We are at the assess your own risk stage of this. AKA the mind your own business stage. You are vaccinated, then don't worry about what other people are doing. Still don't want to be in crowds, avoid crowded places.

Why should I be the one to avoid crowded places when I am prepared to follow the rules? It should be the ones who refuse to follow the rules who stay away. It is not officially at the assess your own risk stage-yet. I would not mind my own business if I saw people near me potentially putting me, or my family at risk, I would ask CMs to intervene. I would be in the right according to current Disney rules. I get people are fed up and just want it all to be over, so do I but simply wishing it away won’t work.

 

[drizgirl]

Or maybe one well-funded, gov't sanctioned but independent news channel... kind of like every other 1st world democracy has (BBC, CBC, ARD, NOS, etc.). Maybe actually empower PBS and NPR to function as they were chartered to do?

Something like Pravda West?

 

[drizgirl]

Quite the opposite. Since you can’t force someone to get vaccinated, you need to make the choice on if you can stand being near an unvaccinated individual.

I believe the science. I will happily stand next to an unvaccinated individual. Just don't expect me to do it in a mask.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Agreed. I don't think most people would classify those with genuine concerns as anti-vaxx.

But why do people have those concerns? What happened that the US went from something like 90+% vaccination rates to 30% being wary? These concerns may be genuine but they’re very much the result of persistent dissemination of misinformation in the guise of “reasonable” questions and concerns. People aren’t born anti-vaccine, and given the way it has grown most adults are themselves going to be vaccinated and those reacting to a child’s diagnosis are going to have at least one child partially vaccinated. People have been turning away from vaccines and it starts with these “reasonable” questions.