Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[RobWDW1971]

And a clear consensus has emerged, uniting pretty much every government in the world: we need to flatten the curve.

Nobody is arguing against that platitude.

We are trying to actually discuss what that exactly means and how far do you go in your actions and accepting the consequences of those actions in relation to what you are actually accomplishing. For me personally, if you told me 2M+ elderly died last year and we will shut down the economy and our way of life to ensure that annual number doesn't raise 10%, I would say (YMMV) that is not an acceptable return on that investment/impact.

Also, somebody needs to tell us if we would instead focus all of our efforts on quarantining the elderly only, sparing the economic devastation, what would that number be, a 15% increase? That's how you make the decision on what you do vs. what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

I think a lot of people have a misconception about what’s going on in Italy.. yes, they’re quarantined, but not fully.. they can still go the grocery. It’s not a complete shut down.

The second article specifically says that "The stores that remain open are shuttering earlier and police are patrolling in ever-greater numbers, chasing families out for walks back into their homes and ensuring no one is outside without a valid reason ".

 

[hopemax]

I disagree that the war on terror was solely a revenge act for the people who were killed on 9/11. However, that conversation is for a different thread, so I don’t want to get into that convo here.

For the record, I wasn't talking the war on terror. AT ALL. Where did that even come from?!? Nevermind... I was just referring to the economic fallout which originated from an incident where the number of actual people involved is magnitudes less than what we are talking about. To make the point that comparing bodies to dollars is silly. The "reaction to their deaths" was referring to people who instantaneously got scared, and the economic ramifications of such a change in behavior.

I don't subscribe to the idea that the US, would watch all of what is and will be happening around the world and just carry on with their normal behavior. We are too "connected." Timeline might have changed, we might be having these conversations about toilet paper in May and not March. Eventually the fear that gripped the country after 9/11 would have come here. They would not be the invisible death count from car crashes and the flu.

 

[Shouldigo12]

I think a lot of people have a misconception about what’s going on in Italy.. yes, they’re quarantined, but not fully.. they can still go the grocery. It’s not a complete shut down.

Well, from what I've read people are getting citations for getting caught outside of the house without a valid reason. So I would say it's pretty shut down.

 

[Shouldigo12]

That was in a different article, that some Italians were ignoring the lockdown.

Italian doctors hope for a sign the coronavirus lockdown is working, because there's no plan B | CNN

Italy is entering its fourth week of the worst national crisis since World War II with no end in sight.

www.cnn.com

Ah, ok. Thank you.

 

[21stamps]

The second article specifically says that "The stores that remain open are shuttering earlier and police are patrolling in ever-greater numbers, chasing families out for walks back into their homes and ensuring no one is outside without a valid reason ".

Ah ok. I only clicked on the first.

Well, from what I've read people are getting citations for getting caught outside of the house without a valid reason. So I would say it's pretty shut down.

It definitely is.. but people can still go to the store. I have a good friend, US Citizen, who moved to Italy about a year ago.. she lives by herself and had been having video chat coffee with friends. It’s really sad.
A few days ago she went to the store.. doesn’t have a face mask.. so posted a photo of her with an eye mask and a scarf covering her mouth and nose while going to the store.

 

[Calmdownnow]

If we did nothing and the virus killed (pick your own percentages) 10% more elderly (200K more) vs. if we shut down society and destroyed the economy and it only killed 5% more (100K), will that have been worth it?

Not a pleasant conversation to be sure, but the pragmatic one we need to be having.

This is like a quote from some dystopian novel or Mad Max film.

I will just say three things: 1) You too will age; 2) You may mature; and 3) You may gain some empathy in that process.

 

[21stamps]

Nobody is arguing against that platitude. We are trying to actually discuss what that exactly means and how far do you go in your actions and accepting the consequences of those actions in relation to what you are actually accomplishing.

I don’t know if I agree with your last sentence.. but that’s ok.

This section that I quoted is so correct and so important. Decisions aren’t simple. These things must be discussed and weighed.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

Becaue I’ve read my history books on how government control works. Getting people to “tell” and shame their neighbors is usually not a good thing. Naturally I’m not comparing this to true tragedies like the Holocaust and Rawanda... but getting people to shame and tell on neighbors were a part of those stories. It creates a dangerous precedent.

I also believe that Italy is what scared the USA and others into moving on this... it’s why Disney Parks were open so long. Until Italy numbers rose so fast, we weren’t that scared. Did Italy do anything to prevent it? The USA was already moving to slow the spread... did Italy do things like that?

I have friends on Facebook who are at the beach. I have other friends who have quarantined family members from family members. I’m somewhere in the middle. I’m going to my local coffee shop, Starbucks for a passion tea, and picking up food at Publix. Other than that, working from home and watching Disney+.

We're mostly staying home - which isn't unusual for us anyways as the nearest convenience store is over 6 miles away (we kind of live in the boonies...there are plenty of houses out here, but the lots are big and very woodsy and there isn't really a "neighborhood" vibe. Not too far away, you start heading into farm country). We opted against going to Dunks for our beloved coffees because I already brew it at home and there's concern with how long the virus could potentially stay alive on surfaces...and again, my husband is at high risk for severe symptoms, so we're leaning towards extra caution. If it weren't for his heart, we'd likely be getting our coffees still.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

You forgot to read this part of the article:

"but many fear there will be new hotspot areas further south, where infrastructure is was already weaker and where fewer people are adhering to the lockdown measures. Police have given citations to nearly 200,000 people across the country and have said they will clamp down even more, starting this weekend, if people continue to flout the restrictions."

Italian doctors hope for a sign the coronavirus lockdown is working, because there's no plan B | CNN

Italy is entering its fourth week of the worst national crisis since World War II with no end in sight.

www.cnn.com

I read it. I was just quoting the part I did to illustrate how severe the lock-down is over there.

 

[LittleBuford]

Nobody is arguing against that platitude. We are trying to actually discuss what that exactly means and how for do you go in your actions and accepting the consequences of those actions in relation to what you are actually accomplishing.

You're acting as if we're still at the debate stage. We're not. Governments the world over have resolved to take drastic action and are doing so even as we squabble. It's fine to discuss the rights and wrongs of this approach, but to suggest that those of us who favour action are speaking in platitudes is to ignore what it going on around us. Flattening the curve is now a widely shared official policy, not some idealistic principle.

 

[21stamps]

You may gain some empathy in that process.

Life, especially when you have the responsibilities that our leaders have, is not that simple.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

“If we did nothing” - nobody is suggesting we do nothing. We were on the right track... all businesses hire extra staff to clean, clean clean and then clean some more!

Limit visitors at nursing homes and hospitals.

Highly recommend that people limit travel if they can and warn people who are most vulnerable to completely quarantine.

That’s not nothing.

Now would that be enough? Possibly not. I don’t know... and that’s why some of us don’t agree.

 

[LittleBuford]

Now would that be enough? Possibly not. I don’t know... and that’s why some of us don’t agree.

None of us here knows. That's the point. All we have to go on is what the experts are telling us, and the majority of them seem to be saying the same thing. Why on earth would anyone choose not to listen to them?

 

[RobWDW1971]

You're acting as if we're still at the debate stage. We're not. Governments the world over have resolved to take drastic action and are doing so even as we squabble. It's fine to discuss the rights and wrongs of this approach, but to suggest that those of us who favour action are speaking in platitudes is to ignore what it going on around us. Flatting the curve is now a widely shared official policy, not some idealistic principle.

A principle that has a different definition to whomever spouts it and has a completely different economic and societal impact on how it is implemented. Hence the conversation about "how to do it" and "what are you actually achieving". Not sure why that is a controversial stance to want to get specific answers to those questions. And deciding on whether or not to destroy the US economy is not "squabbling".

In my career, everytime I found that someone didn't want to answer a question or tried to say asking the question was wrong, didn't ever have a very good answer.

 

[Calmdownnow]

and that is also part of the problem

I'll amend that for you: " and I'm part of the problem" is what you were really saying

 

[21stamps]

You're acting as if we're still at the debate stage. We're not. Governments the world over have resolved to take drastic action and are doing so even as we squabble. It's fine to discuss the rights and wrongs of this approach, but to suggest that those of us who favour action are speaking in platitudes is to ignore what it going on around us. Flatting the curve is now a widely shared official policy, not some idealistic principle.

You aren’t acknowledging the conversation being had.

The question/discussion is not about flattening the curve. Yes, everyone agrees on that. It’s how much are we willing to risk and to what degree are we willing to flatten it.

I posted an email from US Youth Soccer.. the governing body of all soccer in the USA. They are sticking to their original 4/1 date for practices to resume. 4/15 for league games.

I realize that soccer may sound trivial to some.. but I posted it as an example, because the governing body realizes how detrimental it would be for athletes to miss more of their season. Scholarships, national Rankings, national tournaments, etc.
They have to keep their athletes in mind and weigh the risks vs the harm.
Things change daily, but as of now they are not going with the CDC extended recommendation.. but will update in 2 weeks.

Now imagine being a Governor, responsible for your State’s economy.. it’s the same thing, but on a much bigger scale and level of importance.

It all comes down to trying to adhere to health for all, while trying to do as little harm as possible to all people in the process.

 

[Calmdownnow]

Life, especially when you have the responsibilities that our leaders have, is not that simple.

I have watched the press conferences that many State Governors have been giving daily over the last week and have been struck by both their empathy levels and their deep understanding of the challenges they are facing when they make difficult decisions. The U.S. should be very proud of the fact that at the State level, in many cases, there are some strong and competent leaders who are truthfully reporting on a regular basis to the people who they are charged with keeping safe. I don't know if this is the case everywhere, but cherish the leaders who tell the truth and make the difficult decisions.

 

[21stamps]

I have watched the press conferences that many State Governors have been giving daily over the last week and have been struck by both their empathy levels and their deep understanding of the challenges they are facing when they make difficult decisions. The U.S. should be very proud of the fact that at the State level, in many cases, there are some strong and competent leaders who are truthfully reporting on a regular basis to the people who they are charged with keeping safe. I don't know if this is the case everywhere, but cherish the leaders who tell the truth and make the difficult decisions.

I agree with you here! I don’t envy their position, they are doing the best they can when dealing with such an unprecedented situation, in our lifetimes.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

You aren’t acknowledging the conversation being had.

The question/discussion is not about flattening the curve. Yes, everyone agrees on that. It’s how much are we willing to risk and to what degree are we willing to flatten it.

I posted an email from US Youth Soccer.. the governing body of all soccer in the USA. They are sticking to their original 4/1 date for practices to resume. 4/15 for league games.

I realize that soccer may sound trivial to some.. but I posted it as an example, because the governing body realizes how detrimental it would be for athletes to miss more of their season. Scholarships, national Rankings, national tournaments, etc.
They have to keep their athletes in mind and weigh the risks vs the harm.
Things change daily, but as of now they are not going with the CDC extended recommendation.. but will update in 2 weeks.

Now imagine being a Governor, responsible for your State’s economy.. it’s the same thing, but on a much bigger scale and level of importance.

It all comes down to trying to adhere to health for all, while trying to do as little harm as possible to all people in the process.

And that's partially why you and I started arguing yesterday to begin with. I'm of the opinion that going against the CDC recommendations is foolish. Those tournaments, rankings, etc. aren't going to happen if half of the country is sick. You may disagree - and that's fine.