ElvisMickey
Well-Known Member
Thanks! I'm literally about to get my first Pfizer shot in about an hour lol. In all seriousness, hope you feel better!
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Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion
- Thread starter Parker in NYC
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SamusAranX
Well-Known Member
JnJ being paused is going to deal a serious blow to the effort to convince the fence-sitters to get their shot(s).
Gringrinngghost
Well-Known Member
Its actually more of a trend with the viral vector vaccine types. J&Js now follows AstraZeneca which is also a viral vector vaccine in a recommended suspension (J&J)/suspension (AstraZeneca). AstraZenecas was multiple thrombosis (development of more than one blood clot in a short period of time) whereas the J&J is Cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (blood clot in the cerebral sinuses).
For those wondering viral vector vaccines use a modified version of a different virus as the vector to deliver the gene for making the spike proteins of a disease.
Heppenheimer
Well-Known Member
Anytime there is any question, out of an abundance of caution, the FDA will halt the use of a vaccine at least temporarily. The numbers of people affected (6 out of 6.8 million) are too low to say with any statistical certainty whether men have the same risk. With only a few cases, it could be pure chance alone that the clots occurred in women.
My gut feeling, though, if there is real concern for a link... the common risk factors will be contraception plus smoking.
Indeed, the type of blood clots are of the variety linked to pregnancy or hormonal birth control.
It would be cautious to stop using J&J for pre-menopausal women and just reserve J&J for men and post-menopausal women.
durangojim
Well-Known Member
We were supposed to receive 100 doses of J&J in my clinic tomorrow. Trying to switch to Moderna now. As others have said, the optics are going to be really lousy.
correcaminos
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately yes. Good luck securing doses for your clinic
If it makes you feel better out of my family who all had Pfizer, none had more than a sore arm. My arm was the worst of the bunch. I know more who were fine than not.
Sorry yours was so bad.
I've already seen "vaccines were rushed, someone I know died....." on FB from other vaccines. Not sure how much I trust those strangers on the internet because some make crap up to further their distrust and agenda. But it's out there.
Let's say everyone in the U.S. was vaccinated... 100%.
There would still be people dying. Obviously, we can't blame continuing deaths on the vaccine.
Such anecdotes are like: I know someone who ate spaghetti and died! Of course among all deaths, there will be some who have just recently eaten spaghetti.
That's why anecdotes often lead to very wrong conclusions.
The JNJ news in perspective:
- JNJ was effectively halted for a few weeks anyway due to the problems at the Emergent Plant. Right now, we don't know if the JNJ suspension is temporary or permanent. It remains to be seen whether there even is a causal link between the blood clots and the vaccine or whether its just statistical coincidence. Even if there was a causal risk, remains to be seen whether JNJ can be restored for some groups or whether risk is deemed so low that the benefits still far outweigh the risks, bringing back the vaccine.
-Even if the JNJ vaccine is restored quickly, this episode will still cause damage in terms of vaccine hesitancy. Those on the fence about getting vaccinated may not be pushed further away from vaccination.
-If JNJ is suspended long term, it will slow down our vaccine efforts. Where we may have hoped to hit 60%+ by the end of May, that would not be very very unlikely. Lost of JNJ will reduce our vaccine efforts in 3 ways:
- Obviously, less vaccine. At best, we will have enough supply for 60-65% of Americans by the end of May, taking into June to get into people's arms. So on supply alone, slows us down by a month or more.
- As noted above, increased vaccine hesitancy, potentially making it harder to reach levels needed for herd immunity.
- JNJ was particularly effective for hard-to-reach populations. Rural communities, etc. Single shot that can be stored without major refrigeration, perfect vaccine for outreach efforts, at-home-vaccines, mobile vaccination sites, etc. So now, the hardest to reach populations will be even harder to reach.
Basically, I was hoping we would be getting close to 50% with at least 1 shot by the end of April and to 65% by the end of May, maybe even starting to see the effects of herd immunity. The good news is that we have plenty of the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, but this could slow us down by 1-2 months. And if it leads to a big increase in vaccine hesitancy, it could slow us down even more.
- JNJ was effectively halted for a few weeks anyway due to the problems at the Emergent Plant. Right now, we don't know if the JNJ suspension is temporary or permanent. It remains to be seen whether there even is a causal link between the blood clots and the vaccine or whether its just statistical coincidence. Even if there was a causal risk, remains to be seen whether JNJ can be restored for some groups or whether risk is deemed so low that the benefits still far outweigh the risks, bringing back the vaccine.
-Even if the JNJ vaccine is restored quickly, this episode will still cause damage in terms of vaccine hesitancy. Those on the fence about getting vaccinated may not be pushed further away from vaccination.
-If JNJ is suspended long term, it will slow down our vaccine efforts. Where we may have hoped to hit 60%+ by the end of May, that would not be very very unlikely. Lost of JNJ will reduce our vaccine efforts in 3 ways:
- Obviously, less vaccine. At best, we will have enough supply for 60-65% of Americans by the end of May, taking into June to get into people's arms. So on supply alone, slows us down by a month or more.
- As noted above, increased vaccine hesitancy, potentially making it harder to reach levels needed for herd immunity.
- JNJ was particularly effective for hard-to-reach populations. Rural communities, etc. Single shot that can be stored without major refrigeration, perfect vaccine for outreach efforts, at-home-vaccines, mobile vaccination sites, etc. So now, the hardest to reach populations will be even harder to reach.
Basically, I was hoping we would be getting close to 50% with at least 1 shot by the end of April and to 65% by the end of May, maybe even starting to see the effects of herd immunity. The good news is that we have plenty of the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, but this could slow us down by 1-2 months. And if it leads to a big increase in vaccine hesitancy, it could slow us down even more.
I received the J&J vaccine last week. About 2 minutes after receiving it, I had a classic vasovagal syncope episode and fainted out cold for about 30 seconds on the floor of the CVS pharmacy I was at with my wife.
I have never had that kind of a reaction to any sort of needle in my life. I had no anxiety or stress going into it, and the shot itself was perfectly routine. I stood up, remarked that my arm felt pretty sore to my wife, and then had a wave of nausea rapidly come over me. I sat back down to put my head between my knees and apparently kept going, knocking my head on a chair and dividers on the way down. The pharmacist who gave me the shot had just been called away to attend to someone else in recovery that felt nauseous. The nurse that was also thereheard me fall and spung into action, called 911 and had her hand on my pulse within seconds. When I came too, I felt perfectly fine almost immediately, but stayed on the floor until EMTs came in a few minutes and checked my vitals. BP, EKG, O2 levels all perfectly fine. No signs of any allergic reaction. Lucky I didn’t knock my head too hard. They sat me up, gave me some water and got my history while observing me for about 15 minutes. After that I declined transport and my wife (who clearly was now not going to get her shot that day) drove us home. It was a very surreal experience.
Since then I haven’t had any other reactions, aside from the sore arm which took 3-4 days to complete fade away. I may have been a little more tired 2-3 days post vaccine.
I’ve since talked with my regular doctor about it and he was pretty sure it was just a vasovagal response and not explicitly linked to the J&J vaccine, although he did allow that he had been seeing patients with much stronger initial reactions to it then to the others. I’m not entirely sure what I believe about it, especially now with this story and prior ones about sites shutting down due to more immediate reactions.
After my experience, we decided to wait a few days before deciding which shot my wife would get. She originally wanted J&J because she hates needles and didn’t want two shots. Today she’s booked for a first dose of Moderna, and we’re feeling pretty good about that decision now.
I’m pretty sure I already added to some vaccine hesitancy with my reaction - you can imagine the effect a guy fainting and an ambulance rolling up has on a line of people waiting. I don’t exactly regret getting it, but I’m also encouraging people to consider the other options and have been (understandably) hesitant to recommend the J&J vaccine. I’m not sure what’s going on here, and hopefully there’s enough data now to fully figure it out - but I think this pause is a good idea.
I’ve been holding back from sharing my story because there’s every likelihood it’s not linked to J&J specifically and is indeed a anecdotal story, but it’s hard when everyone you know knew you were getting the shot and asked ‘how did it go?’ It’s hard when the nurse treating you on the scene was shaking her head and saying she had seen too many people with issues with just that shot. It’s hard when the lead EMT responding had first hand accounts of similar reactions at the nearby FEMA site that was giving thousands of shots a day. I feel, especially in light of the news stories, like mine is an anecdotal story but now that I am also a statistic. It’s a very odd feeling, and a very hard place to be in especially when still trying to be ‘pro vaccine’ to others that are on the fence.
I’m just glad I don’t have to get a second J&J, because if I was supposed to I doubt I would at this point.
I have never had that kind of a reaction to any sort of needle in my life. I had no anxiety or stress going into it, and the shot itself was perfectly routine. I stood up, remarked that my arm felt pretty sore to my wife, and then had a wave of nausea rapidly come over me. I sat back down to put my head between my knees and apparently kept going, knocking my head on a chair and dividers on the way down. The pharmacist who gave me the shot had just been called away to attend to someone else in recovery that felt nauseous. The nurse that was also thereheard me fall and spung into action, called 911 and had her hand on my pulse within seconds. When I came too, I felt perfectly fine almost immediately, but stayed on the floor until EMTs came in a few minutes and checked my vitals. BP, EKG, O2 levels all perfectly fine. No signs of any allergic reaction. Lucky I didn’t knock my head too hard. They sat me up, gave me some water and got my history while observing me for about 15 minutes. After that I declined transport and my wife (who clearly was now not going to get her shot that day) drove us home. It was a very surreal experience.
Since then I haven’t had any other reactions, aside from the sore arm which took 3-4 days to complete fade away. I may have been a little more tired 2-3 days post vaccine.
I’ve since talked with my regular doctor about it and he was pretty sure it was just a vasovagal response and not explicitly linked to the J&J vaccine, although he did allow that he had been seeing patients with much stronger initial reactions to it then to the others. I’m not entirely sure what I believe about it, especially now with this story and prior ones about sites shutting down due to more immediate reactions.
After my experience, we decided to wait a few days before deciding which shot my wife would get. She originally wanted J&J because she hates needles and didn’t want two shots. Today she’s booked for a first dose of Moderna, and we’re feeling pretty good about that decision now.
I’m pretty sure I already added to some vaccine hesitancy with my reaction - you can imagine the effect a guy fainting and an ambulance rolling up has on a line of people waiting. I don’t exactly regret getting it, but I’m also encouraging people to consider the other options and have been (understandably) hesitant to recommend the J&J vaccine. I’m not sure what’s going on here, and hopefully there’s enough data now to fully figure it out - but I think this pause is a good idea.
I’ve been holding back from sharing my story because there’s every likelihood it’s not linked to J&J specifically and is indeed a anecdotal story, but it’s hard when everyone you know knew you were getting the shot and asked ‘how did it go?’ It’s hard when the nurse treating you on the scene was shaking her head and saying she had seen too many people with issues with just that shot. It’s hard when the lead EMT responding had first hand accounts of similar reactions at the nearby FEMA site that was giving thousands of shots a day. I feel, especially in light of the news stories, like mine is an anecdotal story but now that I am also a statistic. It’s a very odd feeling, and a very hard place to be in especially when still trying to be ‘pro vaccine’ to others that are on the fence.
I’m just glad I don’t have to get a second J&J, because if I was supposed to I doubt I would at this point.
Patcheslee
Well-Known Member
The "new stories" I've read keep mentioning the Baltimore plant mixup, yet don't mention the plant isn't authorized yet.
Irresponsible and misleading
And when millions and millions of people eat spaghetti.... all types of crazy things will happen. 2 spaghetti eaters won the lottery! 13 spaghetti eats died. 39 spaghetti eaters lost their jobs but 36 spaghetti eaters got promoted at work.
So we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves and conclude that the blood clots were even caused by the JNJ vaccine.
Further, sadly, this gets us back to the desire for certainty when there is no such thing. Truly nothing is 100% without risk. People can die from a paper cut.
Colonoscopies are used to detect colon cancer early (or the colon cancer precursors) and thereby to prevent advanced cancer and save lives. But people also die as a result of having a colonoscopy -- complications from anesthesia, perforation during the colonoscopy, etc.
Medicine is ultimately about balancing of risks. The odds of becoming infected with Covid and dying from it are higher than the odds of getting a deadly blood clot from JNJ. More than 1 in a thousand Americans have already died from Covid, while so far, 1 in 7 million JNJ vaccine recipients have died from a blood clot.
People want certainty, but it doesn't exist in medicine. I work in medical malpractice. Most cases simply come down to risk assessment. A patient develops a rare but known complication, and then it becomes whether the rare but known complication should have been avoided or whether it was simply part of the assumed risk.
DisneyFan32
Well-Known Member
- In the Parks
- Yes
JNJ will take longer as more delay for months, as pandemic will stay in US in many months or years.....this is going to be stupid issue that JNJ can do that if herd immunity for never reach until 2022 or 2025.....I can't stand it, I guess JNJ will be fixed by this month or next month to reach herd immunity by July or August....
Gringrinngghost
Well-Known Member
The CDC recommends to pause the J&J vaccine over a incident rate of 6 out of 6.8M (0.00008823529%) for clotting.
Some counties have in a form suspended the AstraZeneca one due with a known incident rate of 222 out of 34M (0.00065294117) for clotting.
Wouldn’t shock me if they just age limit J&J which sadly will cause outrage because people can’t be bothered to take 45 minutes to get a second shot because they think one it’s done.
Final thought: As per https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ca-vaccine-and-rare-clotting-disorder-becomes they note ‘more than 30 deaths’ amongst the 222 cases. Since we don’t have an exact number, let’s use thirty. That’s a fatality rate of 1 in 7.4 cases. Right now for the US, it’s 1 in 6. It’s an early investigation that is going to have to be done no matter what.
Some counties have in a form suspended the AstraZeneca one due with a known incident rate of 222 out of 34M (0.00065294117) for clotting.
Wouldn’t shock me if they just age limit J&J which sadly will cause outrage because people can’t be bothered to take 45 minutes to get a second shot because they think one it’s done.
Final thought: As per https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ca-vaccine-and-rare-clotting-disorder-becomes they note ‘more than 30 deaths’ amongst the 222 cases. Since we don’t have an exact number, let’s use thirty. That’s a fatality rate of 1 in 7.4 cases. Right now for the US, it’s 1 in 6. It’s an early investigation that is going to have to be done no matter what.
Gringrinngghost
Well-Known Member
Please clarify. The selfishness of Americans are why we are currently where we are at. I’m not even going to bother touching back to the point Americans can’t bother to even get a second vaccine dose because they want a one because a second shot is too ‘inconvenient’
Example:
I rest my case.
They don't have a proud heritage of Freedom from Medicine like we do.
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