Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[LuvtheGoof]

You're talking to the wrong guy, I believe in taking precautions. I am just playing devil's advocate for how some of these restrictions could be legally interpreted.

Understood, but the fact that no constitutional rights have been abrogated, means that any suits are going nowhere fast.

 

[kong1802]

I always give you a chance...until this part...

There is absolutely no “freedom to open your bar”...never was a thing...still isn’t.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

People are so dismissive of mental health.

Come back after you've read all the Supreme Court decisions interpreting and applying it. That's where most of the law is made.

Ok, but again, where is anyone being prevented from traveling?

 

[SamusAranX]

I have read the 14th amendment, and I see nowhere in it that says people have a right to travel.

It doesn't say anything about rights to privacy, abortion, or marriage either, but the courts have used the 14th amendment to strike down some laws regarding those (I am not agreeing or disagreeing with those results)

The right to travel was found in the Privileges and Immunities clause of the 14th Amendment in the Slaughterhouse cases. Interestingly, that case alongside others in the later 19th century is viewed as having rendered the 14th Amendment punchless and little used for years after:

Slaughter-House Cases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Court ruled that the Privileges or Immunities Clause only protects rights that pertain to federal U.S. citizenship, not state citizenship. These federal rights include the right to petition the U.S. Congress, the right to vote in federal elections, the right to engage in interstate travel and commerce, the right to enter federal lands, and several others

 

[LuvtheGoof]

It doesn't say anything about rights to privacy, abortion, or marriage either, but the courts have used the 14th amendment to strike down some laws regarding those (I am not agreeing or disagreeing with those results)

The right to travel was found in the Privileges and Immunities clause of the 14th Amendment in the Slaughterhouse cases. Interestingly, that case alongside others in the later 19th century is viewed as having rendered the 14th Amendment punchless and little used for years after:

Slaughter-House Cases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is still nowhere in this country that states that people are not allowed to travel at all. Nowhere.

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Okay, it’s confused from over the pond again!
If recommendations are being ignored and mandates/laws are unconstitutional where does that leave the USA?

Up s—-s creek?

 

[SamusAranX]

There is still nowhere in this country that states that people are not allowed to travel at all. Nowhere.

I agree, but some have interpreted the 14 day quarantines for interstate travel as a violation. Again, I think regardless of constitutionality or not, it's being a kind person to wear your mask, avoid indoor dining, and big groups (although big is in the eye of beholder. I won't gather with more then 5 people right now, and only if they are younger and in good health. i haven't seen my parents or grandparents, and 95 percent of my friends for months)

 

[Chi84]

It doesn't say anything about rights to privacy, abortion, or marriage either, but the courts have used the 14th amendment to strike down some laws regarding those (I am not agreeing or disagreeing with those results)

The right to travel was found in the Privileges and Immunities clause of the 14th Amendment in the Slaughterhouse cases. Interestingly, that case alongside others in the later 19th century is viewed as having rendered the 14th Amendment punchless and little used for years after:

Slaughter-House Cases - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You're doing the Lord's work in a thread where people are commenting on an unwritten clause in the Constitution starting with "Me the people," . . .

One thing that should be noted is that the Constitution covers actions short of absolutely prohibiting something. It is not necessary for a law to absolutely prohibit travel, assembly or speech in order to violate the Constitution.

 

[SamusAranX]

You're doing the Lord's work in a thread where people are commenting on an unwritten clause in the Constitution starting with "Me the people," . . .

One thing that should be noted is that the Constitution covers actions short of absolutely prohibiting something. It is not necessary for a law to absolutely prohibit travel, assembly or speech in order to violate the Constitution.

Correct; for example, laws that place an substantial obstacle to exercising rights can be struck down, under different levels of scrutiny.

 

[seascape]

Florida has basically been flat on cases since Tuesday and averages 43.4 cases per day. Florida is open for business and appears to be at the top of the curve with individual businesses deciding their limits. New York and New Jersey have seen increases, just since yesterday the NY 7 day average of new cases increased from 49.9 to 51.4. That is an increase of over 3% in one day. In the past 2 week Florida has increased 16% while NY has increased 78%. We have all learned more since March and yet today NY may reprt an all time high in daily cases.

 

[SamusAranX]

Florida has basically been flat on cases since Tuesday and averages 43.4 cases per day. Florida is open for business and appears to be at the top of the curve with individual businesses deciding their limits. New York and New Jersey have seen increases, just since yesterday the NY 7 day average of new cases increased from 49.9 to 51.4. That is an increase of over 3% in one day. In the past 2 week Florida has increased 16% while NY has increased 78%. We have all learned more since March and yet today NY may reprt an all time high in daily cases.

You’re taking statistics in a vacuum. We need more time to really make comparisons, but you’re basically arguing over who the tallest midget is; none of the states are doing “well” right now. With notable exceptions I’m sure

 

[DisneyDebRob]

Florida has basically been flat on cases since Tuesday and averages 43.4 cases per day. Florida is open for business and appears to be at the top of the curve with individual businesses deciding their limits. New York and New Jersey have seen increases, just since yesterday the NY 7 day average of new cases increased from 49.9 to 51.4. That is an increase of over 3% in one day. In the past 2 week Florida has increased 16% while NY has increased 78%. We have all learned more since March and yet today NY may reprt an all time high in daily cases.

Here we go again.

 

[DisneyCane]

I always give you a chance...until this part...

There is absolutely no “freedom to open your bar”...never was a thing...still isn’t.

When I have time later I will lay out the legal and constitutional argument. In a nutshell, if a business was opened under a set of laws and regulations, you can't change the rules in the middle of the game unless the business is justly compensated.

So its unconstitutional to isolate everyone, but not unconstitutional to isolate just the vulnerable?

It would be unconstitutional if it was forced. I never suggested anything be forced.

 

[DisneyCane]

Ok, so I just have to ask. Exactly what part of the constitution is being violated by either a temporary stay at home order, or a temporary order to close certain businesses that may spread the virus faster than others? Please be specific.

Oh, exactly how is limiting the number of people in a household violating anyone's constitution rights?

I will lay it out when I have more time but start with the Fifth Amendment that states that no person shall be "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." A temporary stay at home order is no different than temporarily putting somebody under house arrest.

 

[techgeek]

There is no solution. It is an airborne virus. The only way to stop the spread of it without a vaccine is by keeping people isolated from each other. Aside from the illegality and unconstitutional aspects of doing that, it is not practical to do for the length of time it would take. If it was 30 days and problem solved I could get behind it.

The only practical thing to do is try and protect the most vulnerable.

Anecdotal, but I can count the number of close, sustained, unmasked personal contacts I've had since April on two hands easily. I know many other friends and family that can do the same, with no cases of the virus in my immediate circle. The same can not be said for acquaintances I have that have played fast and loose or completely ignored guidance. Masks work. Distancing works.

Following the guidelines, still having a life and contributing to the economy requires adaptation and some sacrifice, but I don’t feel like my constitutional rights are being violated in the slightest. It’s a matter of common sense and humanity. I look forward to returning to traveling and dining out, which are the main sacrifices that have impacted me, but I have a hard time empathizing with the ‘that’s not practical’ viewpoint because these adaptations have been easily achieved by us.

 

[DisneyCane]

Anecdotal, but I can count the number of close, sustained, unmasked personal contacts I've had since April on two hands easily. I know many other friends and family that can do the same, with no cases of the virus in my immediate circle. The same can not be said for acquaintances I have that have played fast and loose or completely ignored guidance. Masks work. Distancing works.

Following the guidelines, still having a life and contributing to the economy requires adaptation and some sacrifice, but I don’t feel like my constitutional rights are being violated in the slightest. It’s a matter of common sense and humanity. I look forward to returning to traveling and dining out, which are the main sacrifices that have impacted me, but I have a hard time empathizing with the ‘that’s not practical’ viewpoint because these adaptations have been easily achieved by us.

Anecdotal but I've played pretty "fast and loose" when in private settings and so has most of my circle of acquaintances and none have been infected. My anecdote doesn't prove anything, neither does yours.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

When I have time later I will lay out the legal and constitutional argument. In a nutshell, if a business was opened under a set of laws and regulations, you can't change the rules in the middle of the game unless the business is justly compensated.

It would be unconstitutional if it was forced. I never suggested anything be forced.

A C-Law lecture on the courts observing precedent on a 245 year old piece of parchment written by guys drinking grog?

I particular like Article 31...where Hamilton and Big Jimmy Madison outlined “just compensation for loss of business revenue due to health crisis that is a national security threat”

My favorite chapter.

I look forward to it

 

[_caleb]

After reading your comments here for the past eleven months, this little revelation:

Anecdotal but I've played pretty "fast and loose" when in private settings and so has most of my circle of acquaintances and none have been infected.

was no more surprising that this one was:

I am what you might call a "die hard Trumper."

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Anecdotal, but I can count the number of close, sustained, unmasked personal contacts I've had since April on two hands easily. I know many other friends and family that can do the same, with no cases of the virus in my immediate circle. The same can not be said for acquaintances I have that have played fast and loose or completely ignored guidance. Masks work. Distancing works.

Following the guidelines, still having a life and contributing to the economy requires adaptation and some sacrifice, but I don’t feel like my constitutional rights are being violated in the slightest. It’s a matter of common sense and humanity. I look forward to returning to traveling and dining out, which are the main sacrifices that have impacted me, but I have a hard time empathizing with the ‘that’s not practical’ viewpoint because these adaptations have been easily achieved by us.

Distancing is an effective mitigation...not a cure all.

But why is anyone questioning it? How stubborn and ill informed do you have to be at this point?

Fauci and Birx fought AIDS Frontline when there were zero answers...all suffering....100% fatality rate.

The fact anyone doubts their opinions without background credentials is an embarrassment. Something that’s important to remind everyone...even if a new season of the masked singer is premiering or the iPhone 27 is dropping. But its obviously hard to pay attention.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

I will lay it out when I have more time but start with the Fifth Amendment that states that no person shall be "be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." A temporary stay at home order is no different than temporarily putting somebody under house arrest.

Wow...are you the world’s worst lawyer??

...you know what...nevermind. I don’t want to see how deep this hole is.