Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[LuvtheGoof]

Some are, some aren't. Back in March, Broward County ordered me not to leave my property unless I was doing something specifically defined as essential. I could also walk a pet within a specified distance (500 ft IIRC). It was not a suggestion and they made clear that it could be enforced by the police.

That order could be challenged in the courts, as it obviously went a bit too far. While it could have been enforced by the police, was anyone actually arrested over it? If not, then it had no real teeth, and was an idle threat. Still very wrong.

 

[DisneyCane]

I never suggested it did, but there’s legitimate science supporting my experience. That wasn’t the point though - my personal perspective was simply in support my observations on how I believe my rights (and the rights of business) are not being violated as a result of the reasonable precautions being asked of us by the CDC.

I own a small business that has been directly and completely impacted by Covid, and have a 50% year over year reduction of revenue. The state of Florida says I can do whatever I want, my clients and customers seem to have a dramatically different opinion. The reason why my loss is only 50% instead of 80% is because I’ve adapted and tried to pivot my offerings to accommodate the current business reality. If I’m a bar owner, and I didn’t see the writing on the wall and figure out a plan B pretty quickly at the beginning of all of this, then I wouldn’t be a very good bar owner. These are personal and businsss realities. The constitution and the bill of rights are fantastic underpinnings of American democracy and society, but they don’t and can’t trump reality or absolve business or individuals responsibility in adapting to realities.

I don't disagree about adapting. I also don't disagree that a business is going to do less revenue now vs. January regardless of government orders.

When I have time to make a detailed post I will address the constitutional and statutory issues with many of the measures.

 

[GoofGoof]

How? Please explain from the standpoint of legal concepts, not "common sense"

Are you talking about the requirement to stay home and quarantine if you test positive? There is definitely a similarity there, but in both cases the person presents a threat to society at large by being out of their home so they are “detained”. I think there were stories of people being arrested or at least physically prevented from being in public who tested positive. The most recent one was a couple who tested positive and then snuck on a plane.

If you are referring to “stay at home“ orders like the ones we had in the spring they aren’t remotely close to house arrest. Under house arrest you cannot leave your house either at all or in some cases during certain hours without permission. During the Covid stay at home orders people were asked not to go out except for essential reasons. You were not arrested for being outside your home. You could take your dog for a walk around the neighborhood, you could go to work if your job was deemed essential. You could take a drive to get out of the house. You could go to a grocery store or pharmacy, you could go to Home Depot and buy new blinds for your living room. You could visit a friend at will (Many places had group gathering limits but no restriction on a one on one visit with a family member). It was a far cry from house arrest.

 

[TrojanUSC]

I will say that I understand the concern... after 9/11 we got the TSA searches which I consider way too far for a citizen traveling within their own country. After Vegas we got unannounced room searches at Disney World, which is also too far imho.

I didn’t agree with some of the extreme measures in March... it made no sense to close outdoor state parks and recreation areas for example, especially in my area that had 5 cases at the time.

I’m trying to see both sides of the coin, but when 3,000 people died yesterday and people are arguing that restaurants and bars should be open for indoor services I just don’t understand.

One of the most jarring things to me during my trip last week was how well Disney-owned restaurants did with their indoor seating (obviously the biggest hole in their COVID plan, save for CM break rooms), compared to the Disney Springs operating participant restaurants. Wine Bar George and Boathouse were literally just as crowded and tight as pre-pandemic.

 

[DisneyCane]

That order could be challenged in the courts, as it obviously went a bit too far. While it could have been enforced by the police, was anyone actually arrested over it? If not, then it had no real teeth, and was an idle threat. Still very wrong.

I don't believe they attempted to enforce it. Probably because they knew it wouldn't hold up in court.

 

[DisneyCane]

Are you talking about the requirement to stay home and quarantine if you test positive? There is definitely a similarity there, but in both cases the person presents a threat to society at large by being out of their home so they are “detained”. I think there were stories of people being arrested or at least physically prevented from being in public who tested positive. The most recent one was a couple who tested positive and then snuck on a plane.

If you are referring to “stay at home“ orders like the ones we had in the spring they aren’t remotely close to house arrest. Under house arrest you cannot leave your house either at all or in some cases during certain hours without permission. During the Covid stay at home orders people were asked not to go out except for essential reasons. You were not arrested for being outside your home. You could take your dog for a walk around the neighborhood, you could go to work if your job was deemed essential. You could take a drive to get out of the house. You could go to a grocery store or pharmacy, you could go to Home Depot and buy new blinds for your living room. You could visit a friend at will (Many places had group gathering limits but no restriction on a one on one visit with a family member). It was a far cry from house arrest.

See my post about Broward county regarding the house arrest analogy.

I'm not talking about forced isolation of infected which is legal. However, somebody in that situation would have due process available. If they weren't really infected they could challenge the isolation order.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

I don't believe they attempted to enforce it. Probably because they knew it wouldn't hold up in court.

Exactly. All of these stay at home statements have to be a recommendation, not a physical order. The people releasing these need to be very careful of how they word these things.

 

[GoofGoof]

See my post about Broward county regarding the house arrest analogy.

I'm not talking about forced isolation of infected which is legal. However, somebody in that situation would have due process available. If they weren't really infected they could challenge the isolation order.

It’s still not remotely close. Under house arrest you have an ankle bracelet that alerts authorities if you leave your home. You literally can’t go anywhere without permission. Asking people to not go out except for essential reasons isn‘t the same thing. They closed purely non-essential businesses but made no effort to stop anyone from doing non-essential shopping at Target or Walmart or Home Depot. You could also drive to the McDonalds drive thru for food or get a Starbucks coffee at the drive thru. There was no attempt by police to arrest people for stepping out of their home.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

When friends of mine lived in DC, there was an announcement made prior to take off from the airports in the Washington DC area immediately after 9/11/01. No passenger is allowed to stand up at all until the plane clears DC airspace. Anyone in violation will be subject to arrest.

Typically that’s the rule anyways during take-off and landing.

 

[Patcheslee]

The stay at home is not an order, but a recommendation. No one is being arrested or detained for going outside. Being under house arrest is a legal consequence, and enforceable. It's not even close to the same thing at all.

I see it as no different than when Indiana counties restrict travel when we have bad road conditions. It can be anything from just "advisory" where travel is okay to "emergency" only. I haven't heard of people complaining about it on something that happens yearly.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

I see it as no different than when Indiana counties restrict travel when we have bad road conditions. It can be anything from just "advisory" where travel is okay to "emergency" only. I haven't heard of people complaining about it on something that happens yearly.

That's actually not a bad analogy, as both are designed to promote public safety. I guess people should complain about the snow now.

 

[DCBaker]

Numbers are out - there were 129 new reported deaths, along with 6 Non-Florida resident deaths.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

*sigh* Dumpster fire in the US, dumpster fire in the thread this week. Anyway...

I was able to read this article on my phone, but run into the paywall on my laptop. Study from South Korea about a student with no clear exposure who came down with COVID (no positives in her community for 2 months). Via extensive contact tracing and using cell phone data mapping, they identified the infection as occurring in a restaurant. An out-of-town visitor infected 3 people who were sitting "down wind" of the flow from the air conditioner. The student was sitting 20 feet away and only overlapped the infectious person for 5 minutes. They concluded that the air circulation patterns in the restaurant, the direction the affected diners were facing created a valley of wind, in which the people on a specific line were infected. A reminder that mitigation is not a complete elimination of risk and given the right circumstances spread can happen.

Infected after 5 minutes, from 20 feet away: South Korea study shows coronavirus' spread indoors

A South Korean study raises concerns that six feet of social distance may not be far enough to keep people safe from the coronavirus.

www.latimes.com

Unfortunately some fires need to be extinguished...they don’t burn out if you ignore them.

 

[SamusAranX]

I will say that I understand the concern... after 9/11 we got the TSA searches which I consider way too far for a citizen traveling within their own country. After Vegas we got unannounced room searches at Disney World, which is also too far imho.

I didn’t agree with some of the extreme measures in March... it made no sense to close outdoor state parks and recreation areas for example, especially in my area that had 5 cases at the time.

I’m trying to see both sides of the coin, but when 3,000 people died yesterday and people are arguing that restaurants and bars should be open for indoor services I just don’t understand.

Numbers are out - there were 129 new reported deaths, along with 6 Non-Florida resident deaths.

View attachment 518092View attachment 518093View attachment 518094View attachment 518095

Looks like Florida’s thanksgiving rush has begun
Combine that with no indoor dining restrictions and open bars. Ouch

 

[oceanbreeze77]

What I find interesting is that a group of people who were screaming "people just need to follow the rules" earlier in the summer about different matters are now...not following the rules.

Funny how that works.

 

[Parker in NYC]

What I find interesting is that a group of people who were screaming "people just need to follow the rules" earlier in the summer about different matters are now...not following the rules.

Funny how that works.

Oh, oceanbreeze. Come sit socially distanced by me and we'll drink the pain away.

 

[GoofGoof]

I see it as no different than when Indiana counties restrict travel when we have bad road conditions. It can be anything from just "advisory" where travel is okay to "emergency" only. I haven't heard of people complaining about it on something that happens yearly.

Or barrier islands closing down during hurricanes.

 

[SamusAranX]

Or barrier islands closing down during hurricanes.

Hey, we're no wimps in Florida. When the big storm comes, we ride our alligators down to Publix, grab subs, OJ, and Vodka, and party on the beach. We're tough folk.

 

[Patcheslee]

That's actually not a bad analogy, as both are designed to promote public safety. I guess people should complain about the snow now.

I complain about snow but for some reason "Florida vacation home for my mental health" doesn't qualify for health insurance

 

[GoofGoof]

Hey, we're no wimps in Florida. When the big storm comes, we ride our alligators down to Publix, grab subs, OJ, and Vodka, and party on the beach. We're tough folk.

My FIL got sick of leaving during hurricanes so he just got hurricane shutters and a backup generator and just stays put. He is just on the inland side of the barrier island so he is never fully cut off. They do regularly close the bridge when a hurricane approaches.