Coronavirus and Walt Disney World general discussion

[HauntedPirate]

From a purely selfish perspective, I wouldn't mind seeing buffets disappear from Disney restaurants. Partly because (aside from Boma, which I love) the food is generally just meh. If anyone claims to prefer scrambled eggs and soggy bacon from a buffet over scrambled eggs and bacon made to order then that person is not someone whose judgment should ever be taken seriously. The selfish reason I welcome a switch from buffet to family-style meals is that I get my own special plate of food due to my body's awful inability to process gluten. I generally don't trust the food at a buffet to not be cross-contaminated by other guests who aren't aware of what they're doing as they shovel food onto their plates, so even at Boma I limit myself to an omelet from the omelet station and some of the allergy-friendly waffles and donuts that the server brings me from the kitchen. And that's all before you consider the germs and sticky handles on serving utensils because someone ahead of you had syrup on their hands as they scooped up their food.

You just keep your hands off of my Cabana's.

 

[HauntedPirate]

It does. But it’ll be summer or beyond before enough of us are vaccinated.

Sincerely hoping we are able to cross paths, say, a week or two before the 50th? I'll buy the coffee.

 

[Chi84]

I think the justification is that others have no idea whether you got the vaccine or just don’t want to wear a mask. I guess the mask at that time still is to protect others. I can see some people today, not wanting to wear them.. waiting for places to drop the mask policy and go in whether vaccinated or not. We can’t all have ID cards saying we got the shot so that’s why I think it’s going to be awhile until things change. I think businesses.. Disney included are going to be playing things safe for a very long time.
With the national polls saying maybe a little more then half the people will get vaccinated makes it tough for all of us that will get it.

I will wear a mask to protect others, and I will wear a mask to protect myself. Those things make sense to me. But I'm not going to be too pleased about having to wear a mask because of what is in or is not in other people's heads. I'll carry a card and do whatever else is necessary to prove that I have a vaccine, but I won't wear a mask because other people might have a subjective fear that I'm not vaccinated and don't want to wear a mask. If that's the case, those people can get the vaccine and then they'll be 95% protected. Or they can wear a mask if they think I'm lying - since the vast majority of the population is not infected, chances are pretty good I'm not either. When most of the population is vaccinated (including all the grandmas), we won't have to worry about the spread so much.

I'm not sure what poll you're talking about, but I don't put much faith in polls taken when people don't have all the facts. Months ago, doctors were speculating that the effective rate of a vaccine would be about 65%. Heck, polls are inaccurate even when trying to predict how people are voting when all the facts are known and they're polling people at voting sites. In any event, I guess we'll just have to wait to see what happens.

 

[DisneyCane]

I think once the vaccine starts rolling out if we don’t see any major issues the percent vaccinated will grow. In the last major poll that I saw which was before the Pfizer news and just prior to the election we were up to 58% firm yes. Of the 42% that said no almost half said they would get it if they had more information on safety or on effectiveness. I think that gets us to around 80% assuming the vaccine proves safe and effective. Even if that slips to around 2/3 of the population at 95% effective that should be plenty to get to herd immunity.

I think assuming the vaccines continue to be 95% effective, once the vaccine is widely available to anyone who wants it then most restrictions will be lifted everywhere. What purpose would a mask mandate serve if 2/3 of the population is vaccinated and the other third had their shot. At that point the “I’ll take my risk, it’s only the flu“ crowd can put their money where their mouth is and live with the risk if they choose not to get vaccinated. I see no reason Disney keeps any restrictions they absolutely don’t need once they get the CMs vaccinated. If you can’t prove you got sick from a worker and you had a shot at a vaccine I can’t see them being held legally liable or liable in the court of public opinion.

Two things we can agree on in one day! We're making good progress.

 

[October82]

I think assuming the vaccines continue to be 95% effective, once the vaccine is widely available to anyone who wants it then most restrictions will be lifted everywhere. What purpose would a mask mandate serve if 2/3 of the population is vaccinated and the other third had their shot. At that point the “I’ll take my risk, it’s only the flu“ crowd can put their money where their mouth is and live with the risk if they choose not to get vaccinated. I see no reason Disney keeps any restrictions they absolutely don’t need once they get the CMs vaccinated. If you can’t prove you got sick from a worker and you had a shot at a vaccine I can’t see them being held legally liable or liable in the court of public opinion.

The problem is people who (for some medical reason) can not get vaccinated. We see this with diseases like measles, where otherwise healthy people refusing to get vaccinated allows disease to spread to those who rely on the immunity of those around them to protect themselves.

 

[Disney Experience]

The problem is people who (for some medical reason) can not get vaccinated. We see this with diseases like measles, where otherwise healthy people refusing to get vaccinated allows disease to spread to those who rely on the immunity of those around them to protect themselves.

There are also groups who have had bad experiences with vaccines in the past, such as Sweden as mentioned below in an earlier post of mine. I think the total rate of Narcolepsy in Sweden was less than 1 in 18000. (While normally it was 1 in 64000).[Based on articles I read a while back...but I could remember it wrong]. No other country had similar problems, and other studies were too small (Like N=7 small) to prove whether or not it was vaccine related. But the people in Sweden are likely to be a little hesitant. I am not worried about being vaccinated (and anyone who has read my past posts knows I am already vaccinated when there was less statistical data), and for anyone healthy I would recommend either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, I like their method (mRNA). Astra Zeneca (modified Adeno virus) has had some quality control issues, potential less effective, and one severe side effect that their review determine was unrelated to vaccine. Of course most of us will not have a choice on which vaccine they take. Finally, J&J's one shot vaccine (modified Adenovirus) is a number of months out.

Now I do want Florida and the rest of the world to get to normal as soon as possible with the least trauma (Whether from Covid, or Covid mitigations). One spot to look to see empirically how well no mandates work is Sweden. It worked well for sometime, but not anymore. Bad enough that the government there is looking at lockdowns. I will be so glad when most people are vaccinated.

Swedish Government Rethinks COVID-19 Containment Strategy

While much of Europe locked down to stop the coronavirus from spreading, Sweden relied largely on voluntary social distancing measures. Now as infections rise, the government is reconsidering.

www.npr.org

But Sweden has, as a country, some bad side effects(Narcolepsy) from older (Pandemrix for h1n1 swine flu) vaccines adjuvants. So vaccine compliance in Sweden may be harder to achieve than elsewhere. Some studies state the increase rate of Narcolepsy was due more to the virus than the vaccine.

Narcolepsy fiasco spurs Covid vaccine fears in Sweden

Take a vaccine developed in haste? Never again, says Meissa Chebbi, who, like hundreds of other young Swedes suffered debilitating narcolepsy after a mass vaccination campaign against the 2009-2010 swine flu pandemic.

medicalxpress.com

 

[cjack300zx]

Talking to a customer today she told me she was at Wally World(walmart) the other day and she asked a woman who looked to be in her late 30s to early 40s "why are you not wearing a mask" the woman said "it's none of your G_ _D_ _ business"! This lady is 82 years old. Virginia has a state wide mask mandate and so does Wally World. Sad world that we live in these days

 

[DCBaker]

 

[GoofGoof]

The problem is people who (for some medical reason) can not get vaccinated. We see this with diseases like measles, where otherwise healthy people refusing to get vaccinated allows disease to spread to those who rely on the immunity of those around them to protect themselves.

Yeah, it’s better for society if everyone who is able just gets the vaccine, but it would also have been better the last 8 months if people just did what was better for society. Sadly some people just don’t care about anyone but themselves. It’s everyone’s right to do what they want, but it’s my right to describe that behavior as selfish if an able bodied person decides not to get the free vaccine because it’s their right to do so.

Fortunately it doesn’t appear that Covid is as contagious as measles so it’s likely that we only need 60-70% vaccinated to reach herd immunity. In theory once the R naught drops below 1 due to enough people being immune then the number of cases should spiral down exponentially until it reaches zero. There may still be outbreaks after that as pockets of unvaccinated people spread it around, but at that point real contact tracing and testing should be able to snuff it out quickly. I think there will be a period between when vaccinations are widespread and we reach no or very few cases where anyone who can’t get the vaccine will have to lay low and be more cautious. Unlike the nonsense idea of isolating the high risk today without a vaccine it should be possible and practical to isolate that small group once the vaccine is widely available. They will likely be susceptible to other sickness as well so accustomed to being careful. There is an economic component to this pandemic too and we can’t just keep Covid restrictions forever to protect a very small group. I’m OK with doing that today due to the large number of people impacted.

 

[oceanbreeze77]

I know we are waiting for cases/ death count to straighten out after the holiday lag....but 100K Hospitalizations is AWFUL and a real indication of where we are at right now. .

 

[hopemax]

I will wear a mask to protect others, and I will wear a mask to protect myself. Those things make sense to me. But I'm not going to be too pleased about having to wear a mask because of what is in or is not in other people's heads. I'll carry a card and do whatever else is necessary to prove that I have a vaccine, but I won't wear a mask because other people might have a subjective fear that I'm not vaccinated and don't want to wear a mask. If that's the case, those people can get the vaccine and then they'll be 95% protected. Or they can wear a mask if they think I'm lying - since the vast majority of the population is not infected, chances are pretty good I'm not either. When most of the population is vaccinated (including all the grandmas), we won't have to worry about the spread so much.

I'm not sure what poll you're talking about, but I don't put much faith in polls taken when people don't have all the facts. Months ago, doctors were speculating that the effective rate of a vaccine would be about 65%. Heck, polls are inaccurate even when trying to predict how people are voting when all the facts are known and they're polling people at voting sites. In any event, I guess we'll just have to wait to see what happens.

With all due respect, this is why we have the problems we have today. Most people who spread COVID would say they truly believed they were not infected on the days they spread it. Sure, there are the idiots who test positive or have a close contact who they already know is positive, but they are outnumbered by the people who claim, "I did everything right, and I still got it." People are horrible at evaluating risk.

There will be lots of people walking around WDW (really, anywhere) thinking "everyone else is vaccinated, so I can be hesitant." Many of them will claim they just wanted to make sure the vaccine is safe, and are waiting a little longer. Deciding that people who make poor decisions "deserve whatever they get," is no more acceptable tomorrow as it is today. We have 5000 years of history of people make poor decisions, I don't know why people expect everyone to be perfect. We have to operate as if people are dumb, because we are. It's also clear people don't really understand herd immunity. It makes the fire harder to get started, but once it's started, it will still burn. Reaching 60-70%, whatever it is will make this phenomenally better, especially when it comes to hospital beds and staffing. But the other 30-40% will still be at risk, there will still be flare ups and still don't deserve to be harmed so that someone else can enjoy a vacation. Maybe, when it's like other infectious diseases at 95% the unvaccinated can be shamed. But again, so many health & safety rules are for protection of a small, vulnerable population while the greater masses will experience minor or non-existent outcomes. 40% compared to that, is still a lot.

Basically, this is not about you. You won't be asked to wear a mask because of what is in people's heads, but because too many people will still be unprotected, and it's hard to enforce, and often discriminatory to have different sets of rules for different people. Heck, that's why so many anti-restriction people are upset. Different rules for different groups. This is not going to go away overnight, and we're going to have rules to follow for months after non-medical minds think they are unnecessary. But it won't be forever. Just longer than people think.

 

[GoofGoof]

I know we are waiting for cases/ death count to straighten out after the holiday lag....but 100K Hospitalizations is AWFUL and a real indication of where we are at right now. .

Just a bunch of people who were in motorcycle accidents and falsely listed as Covid so the hospitals can make a profit

We’re gonna need more motorcycles

 

[seascape]

Yeah, it’s better for society if everyone who is able just gets the vaccine, but it would also have been better the last 8 months if people just did what was better for society. Sadly some people just don’t care about anyone but themselves. It’s everyone’s right to do what they want, but it’s my right to describe that behavior as selfish if an able bodied person decides not to get the free vaccine because it’s their right to do so.

Fortunately it doesn’t appear that Covid is as contagious as measles so it’s likely that we only need 60-70% vaccinated to reach herd immunity. In theory once the R naught drops below 1 due to enough people being immune then the number of cases should spiral down exponentially until it reaches zero. There may still be outbreaks after that as pockets of unvaccinated people spread it around, but at that point real contact tracing and testing should be able to snuff it out quickly. I think there will be a period between when vaccinations are widespread and we reach no or very few cases where anyone who can’t get the vaccine will have to lay low and be more cautious. Unlike the nonsense idea of isolating the high risk today without a vaccine it should be possible and practical to isolate that small group once the vaccine is widely available. They will likely be susceptible to other sickness as well so accustomed to being careful. There is an economic component to this pandemic too and we can’t just keep Covid restrictions forever to protect a very small group. I’m OK with doing that today due to the large number of people impacted.

I am more concerned with California getting vaccinated than anywhere else. California is notoriously for the anti vaccine movement. Disneyland has outbreaks of measles because of the anti vaccine movement and based on Los Angeles's population and Covid19 rate it is possible that the spread will continue well past Summer, keeping Universal and Magic Mountain closed and possibly extending into Anaheim. I have less fear in Florida and the east coast.

 

[GoofGoof]

I am more concerned with California getting vaccinated than anywhere else. California is notoriously for the anti vaccine movement. Disneyland has outbreaks of measles because of the anti vaccine movement and based on Los Angeles's population and Covid19 rate it is possible that the spread will continue well past Summer, keeping Universal and Magic Mountain closed and possibly extending into Anaheim. I have less fear in Florida and the east coast.

I’m banking on herd immunity being possible with a much lower percent of the population. Even though there anti-va out there everyone and especially in CA they don’t make up 30-40% of the population. Now I’d herd immunity is only reached at 95% immune that’s going to be a problem.

 

[networkpro]

Given the number of Northerners in Hollywood Studios today, I'm going to vote for an anecdotal bounce in thier positive numbers in two weeks.

 

[JoeCamel]

I am more concerned with California getting vaccinated than anywhere else. California is notoriously for the anti vaccine movement. Disneyland has outbreaks of measles because of the anti vaccine movement and based on Los Angeles's population and Covid19 rate it is possible that the spread will continue well past Summer, keeping Universal and Magic Mountain closed and possibly extending into Anaheim. I have less fear in Florida and the east coast.

Not really, the measles outbreak had 110 California infections and 18 of those were intentionally unvaccinated children. The shade is unwarranted. Maybe high profile but not notorious.

From the CDC report on the subject:

Among the 110 California patients, 49 (45%) were unvaccinated; five (5%) had 1 dose of measles-containing vaccine, seven (6%) had 2 doses, one (1%) had 3 doses, 47 (43%) had unknown or undocumented vaccination status, and one (1%) had immunoglobulin G seropositivity documented, which indicates prior vaccination or measles infection at an undetermined time. Twelve of the unvaccinated patients were infants too young to be vaccinated. Among the 37 remaining vaccine-eligible patients, 28 (67%) were intentionally unvaccinated because of personal beliefs, and one was on an alternative plan for vaccination. Among the 28 intentionally unvaccinated patients, 18 were children (aged <18 years), and 10 were adults. Patients range in age from 6 weeks to 70 years; the median age is 22 years. Among the 84 patients with known hospitalization status, 17 (20%) were hospitalized.

Measles Outbreak — California, December 2014–February 2015

www.cdc.gov

 

[seascape]

I’m banking on herd immunity being possible with a much lower percent of the population. Even though there anti-va out there everyone and especially in CA they don’t make up 30-40% of the population. Now I’d herd immunity is only reached at 95% immune that’s going to be a problem.

The issue in many areas are the undocumented. The government needs to make sure everyone gets vaccinated and that means ID and tracking and that is going to be difficult. Just look at the amnesty bill on the undocumented that President Reagan signed, most of the eligible never took advantage of it. Do you really think this group will get vaccinated if they need an ID? That is going to cause problems and why I hate to say it we need to pay everyone to get the shot. Give $1200 for those with proof of American citizenship and $750 for everyone else. No other stimulus should be given.

 

[Chi84]

With all due respect, this is why we have the problems we have today. Most people who spread COVID would say they truly believed they were not infected on the days they spread it. Sure, there are the idiots who test positive or have a close contact who they already know is positive, but they are outnumbered by the people who claim, "I did everything right, and I still got it." People are horrible at evaluating risk.

There will be lots of people walking around WDW (really, anywhere) thinking "everyone else is vaccinated, so I can be hesitant." Many of them will claim they just wanted to make sure the vaccine is safe, and are waiting a little longer. Deciding that people who make poor decisions "deserve whatever they get," is no more acceptable tomorrow as it is today. We have 5000 years of history of people make poor decisions, I don't know why people expect everyone to be perfect. We have to operate as if people are dumb, because we are. It's also clear people don't really understand herd immunity. It makes the fire harder to get started, but once it's started, it will still burn. Reaching 60-70%, whatever it is will make this phenomenally better, especially when it comes to hospital beds and staffing. But the other 30-40% will still be at risk, there will still be flare ups and still don't deserve to be harmed so that someone else can enjoy a vacation. Maybe, when it's like other infectious diseases at 95% the unvaccinated can be shamed. But again, so many health & safety rules are for protection of a small, vulnerable population while the greater masses will experience minor or non-existent outcomes. 40% compared to that, is still a lot.

Basically, this is not about you. You won't be asked to wear a mask because of what is in people's heads, but because too many people will still be unprotected, and it's hard to enforce, and often discriminatory to have different sets of rules for different people. Heck, that's why so many anti-restriction people are upset. Different rules for different groups. This is not going to go away overnight, and we're going to have rules to follow for months after non-medical minds think they are unnecessary. But it won't be forever. Just longer than people think.

No, if I receive a vaccine that is 95% effective, coupled with the fact that the vast majority of people do not have COVID, it’s not a case of a selfish idiot not being able to properly evaluate risk. The risk that I pose will be virtually non-existent. My wearing a mask under those circumstances will not protect anyone else because it will not be as it is now, when people have no way of evaluating whether or not they are infected. When the vaccine becomes widely available, restrictions will be dropped.

 

[JoeCamel]

No, if I receive a vaccine that is 95% effective, coupled with the fact that the vast majority of people do not have COVID, it’s not a case of a selfish idiot not being able to properly evaluate risk. The risk that I pose will be virtually non-existent. My wearing a mask under those circumstances will not protect anyone else because it will not be as it is now, when people have no way of evaluating whether or not they are infected. When the vaccine becomes widely available, restrictions will be dropped.

Mmmm, how about for other viruses?

South Korea reports bird flu outbreak on duck farm: OIE

South Korea has confirmed an outbreak of highly pathogenic H5N8 bird flu on a duck farm in the southwestern part of the country, the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) said on Monday.

www.reuters.com

 

[seascape]

Mmmm, how about for other viruses?

South Korea reports bird flu outbreak on duck farm: OIE

South Korea has confirmed an outbreak of highly pathogenic H5N8 bird flu on a duck farm in the southwestern part of the country, the World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) said on Monday.

www.reuters.com

Oh no. I pray we don't get another one.