lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
But the random 14 year old with the 12 year old cannot give the consent. The rule would otherwise require a parent or legal guardian.
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Changes coming to minimum age requirement for park entry
- Thread starter wdwmagic
- Start date
luv
Well-Known Member
If you go back and read the thread, you will see that I wasn't talking about the new policy, which I don't like but do understand.
flynnibus
Premium Member
BZZZT - Consent is given when the accounts are setup - not by having the adult with the child in the park. Once you have consent, you don't need supervision to keep that consent. You also don't give consent simply by being present - hence the whole reason for the ToS to start with.
Second - the reason you miss the important distinction is because you keep using 'adult' and 'parent' interchangeably. That is inaccurate. COPPA requires PARENTAL consent - not 'an adult'. The terms are not interchangeable.. and that is significant because Disney's rumored policy will be the child has to be accompanied by 'someone over 14' - that person is not sufficent to satisfy COPPA requirements. So that means what Disney 'allows' as sufficent is INsufficent for COPPA.. so how is this to address COPPA requirements?
Wrong again - the data collected is allowed by the agreement as part of enrolling in the service - not by physical presence.
Physical presence has ZERO relevance to granting consent. If physically present were a sign of consent... Disney wouldn't have to have you enroll online at all.
You are missing the important step that the minor can not gain access to the park themselves without an adult securing their ticket. And that transaction is where the consent is handled.
Presence of an adult does NOT create defacto consent (again.. if this were true Disney wouldn't need anyone to agree to a ToS..) and COPPA specifically requires a PARENT - not simply any responsible adult.
Being over the age of 14 doesn't give you legal standing to make contracts for any random minor... think about what you are saying.
Goofyernmost
Well-Known Member
Perhaps, you were one of them! But your not seeing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've been going there for years as well, not as often I'm sure, but I have never witnessed a problem with the alleged evil Brazilian tour groups either. And who are you to call me an "old fart" ya loud mouthed punk! Get the hell off my lawn!
luv
Well-Known Member
I used to think people who complained about the BTGs were mean, anti-Brazilian people. Alas, no. They can, at times, make things very difficult for others.
If you haven't witnessed it, you simply haven't been there enough to know.
But they're here to stay, so we might as well all get used to defending our place in line or letting them push right on through the lines.
If you haven't witnessed it, you simply haven't been there enough to know.
But they're here to stay, so we might as well all get used to defending our place in line or letting them push right on through the lines.
Wrong. A parent or guardian's presence CAN create the required consent. The reason it is an issue inside the parks is because the data collection identifies the physical location of the child...which is a different location from the time the account is set-up. It is NEW information, which would need parental consent under COPPA, presumably,
the parent is aware of what is being collected (a requirement under the law), and his/her presence is enough to create the consent (the law doesn't specify any particular method for acquiring consent).
COPPA allows for agents to be appointed by parents with regards to consent, and since under COPPA and adult is someone who is at least 13, the new admission policy satisfies the consent requirement.
Wrong. COPPA is explicit as to what information is protected. Any information that could identfy a child's location must have parental consent. Because location is very specific, any changes are just that, changes, and require parental consent (parental consent is not a one-time procedure). Also, the Magic Bands seemingly act as a repository of personal information that is constantly being disclosed. COPPA regards website actions. The consent granted at account creation on a website is for Disney to have that information. It's use in the parks create "new" disclosures under COPPA in which consent is once again required, even though that is information Disney already has. The use of it by adults is obviously consent, and therefore the presence of a child's guardian/parent is the defacto consent (again...there is no prescribed require as to the method of consent under COPPA).
No, that is not where consent is handled. Contrary to what you may think, Terms of Service agreements and admission "contracts" are not absolute and often have unenforceable language. They are tactics used to prevent people from pursuing claims against the company for a variety of reasons.
Again, assuming the parent granted another adult permission to take their kids to the parks, they are authorized under COPPA to consent.
That is absolutely true, and is what many consider to be a big problem with COPPA. However, contract law is the jurisdiction of the states, whereas COPPA is a Federal law and supercedes state law. Therefore, while a 13 year old cannot legally enter into a contract and be held to its terms (with the exception of purchasing life necessities and being paid for work performed), they can consent to website information dissemination thanks to COPPA.
jakeman
Well-Known Member
If only there was some online resource or agency to ask to clarify this month long back and forth...
flynnibus
Premium Member
The information collected from the parks was already disclosed to the parent when they agreed to add the child to their profile or when they secured their tickets.
Simply being present does not meet the standard of NOTICE and getting AUTHORIZATION for that explicit use. When did Disney give you notice of what data is collected and how it's used when you walk through the gate?
They don't - those transactions (notice and authorization) are handled previously. The data that is collected in the parks is disclosed then (the MyMagic+ terms of service).
Really? I look forward to you pointing out the line and reference where delegation is mentioned in the COPPA act...
http://www.ftc.gov/ogc/coppa1.htm
Or the newly revised version that will go into effect this summer (the consolidated version starts at page 151)
http://www.ftc.gov/os/2012/12/121219copparulefrn.pdf
The requirement is parent or legal guardian. Someone accompanying you is not your legal guardian, even if they are responsible for you at the time. A legal guardian in the state of FL is appointed by a court not by an adult accompanying a minor.
Parential consent IS a one time procedure unless the types of information or how you share it change. Location data is new data, but it is handled the same as all other 'personal information' in the law. You do not require new disclosure anytime the data being collected itself changes. If your IP, your geolocation, even your email address change - that does NOT require new disclosure (NOTICE and AUTHORIZATION). Only if the type or handling of the data were to change would you be required to make new disclosures and get authorization.
The law does not require new consent each time you log into the website and they use your IP address to geolocate you.. and that is the same as locating you via your band in the parks.
Do you realize the impracticality you suggest that every time they collect a new location reference on you that would require NEW consent? That means EVERYTIME the child used the website.. new consent would be required. Not only is that NOT in the law, it's insane and they never would approve it.
Complete rubbish. The data collected in the parks is disclosed (NOTICE) and requires consent (AUTHORIZATION) as part of the MyMagic setup. Presumably they will go through a read and acknowledge ToS at the ticket booths to handle in person transactions.
Wrong and wrong again. Please specify in the COPPA requirements on 'verficable parental consent' there is any language about defacto or implied consent. There is ZERO language regarding the parent's use of the service as it relates to requirements of disclosure or notice. The parent's use of the service has absolutely zero relevance.
Second - there ARE methods described in the revised COPPA on what consitutes verifably parental consent, but it is not an exhaustive list. I refer you to page 160 and 161 - http://www.ftc.gov/os/2012/12/121219copparulefrn.pdf
A valid point - but tangent to the scope and requirements of COPPA and has zero relevance here except for the scope of what is described under 312.4(a)
The only applicability here would be if Disney were found to be non-compliant in their disclosure and authorization. The law is black and white on who must supply consent.
Something you just made up because there is nothing about that in COPPA. Provide a cite.
Legal guardianship in FL is through the courts. There are exceptions for temporary custody for extended family that might apply.. but you'd be really stretching it here.
Lastly - just visiting the park in itself is completely OUTSIDE the scope of COPPA. The only reason it has any significance at WDW is because Disney offers online services in conjunction with the features and services. If all they had was you to fill out a paper form, and you did not use any online services (website, reservation system, phone app, etc) COPPA would have zero relevance to visiting the parks. The only reason it does.. is the online aspects and the info in the park feeds into that.
COPPA is not some universal 'protect child information law' - it is EXPLICITLY defined only for online websites and online services. For instance, even if Disney took photos of children onsite and stored them for their own use.. that alone does not make the photos or information subject to COPPA because they were not used in conjunction or as part of a website or online service.
There are a lot of words there. Could you provide a summary that includes your opinion?
jakeman
Well-Known Member
Can I just post a meme?
All Disney All The Time
Well-Known Member
Call me old fashioned, but we didn't start letting our kids into the parks alone until they were 12.
disney fan 13
Well-Known Member
Amen.
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
In order for NGE/MM+ to be a success, Disney MUST get the metrics from guests of all ages. No matter what. No opt-outs. No excuses. No nothing.
And that's their goal. ... But I know nothing of the tech and I haven't studied COPPA like I was an expert on security and/or datamining. I am just using plain old facts and common sense.
And that's their goal. ... But I know nothing of the tech and I haven't studied COPPA like I was an expert on security and/or datamining. I am just using plain old facts and common sense.
All Disney All The Time
Well-Known Member
The Mouse will get you if you don't watch out.
WDW1974
Well-Known Member
So ... what about the blockheads that send their kids miles away on subways and city buses? Or walking miles to/from schools/activities? Countless kids do it daily in rough cities, rough 'hoods.
Yet, at WDW, which still is an extremely safe place, a few kids going off on their own is cause for alarm.
No wonder why we have 27 and 31-year-olds that are like children in the workplace and real world. They were never let off the leash. There is NOTHING wrong with kids doing their own thing (provided on their maturity and how good they've been parented) at WDW. And it's been going on for decades.
lazyboy97o
Well-Known Member
Where is the common sense in confusing any person older than fourteen with a parent or legal guardian?
All Disney All The Time
Well-Known Member
You raise a valid point about subways, buses, etc. I choose not to get into a sociologic debate about predators, bullying, etc. But I'll offer this, when our kids were "little" we went to WDW to enjoy the experience with them, not to get away from them. To us there was not much better than watching them have a total blast on rides, during the parades and fireworks and during Meet and Greets.
I_heart_Tigger
Well-Known Member
I skimmed through the posts and do that many of you actually think there was ever a time where Disney permitted a 6 year old to enter the park by themselves? Did you not actually read the (incredibly short) article? Maybe focus on the line that reads, "Currently, the policy is that guests under 7 years of age must be accompanied by a guest age 14 or older."