Change to the Pirates early 2018

Bender123

Well-Known Member
I prefer my kids don't see pirates as heros. The auctioning off of people shows them that pirates aren't good. Depicting them as just auctioning off goods doesn't give a clear picture of who/what pirates are. The scene they are destroying really brings home the point that pirates aren't good. Without that scene the point is missed.

The story is more than just a bit muddled now...You see the pirates all dead as a warning to those that seek money and wealth, then you flash back to pirates attacking a town trying to find Jonny Depp and his map, the pirates...have...an...auction (OK...why aren't they just stealing stuff...they are pirates), then the pirates drink, sing and...get beaten by...women with brooms? (Wait...what?)...then the pirates are in jail and Jonny Depp has...all...the...money? How? Why are the pirates in jail, now? If the pirates never got the treasure and gold, then how did they get cursed and all end up steering a ghost ship and dead on a beach?

See how these changes don't make sense? The only way this story makes sense is to just call it a series of scenes with little to nothing to do with each other...Just things happen and its done.

Any one change doesn't affect the story too much, but the sum total of the changes make the narrative broken and senseless...
 

becca_

Well-Known Member
Just for reference...

How many rides does the MK have with a defined human male protagonist? The only ones I can think of are Buzz Lightyear (arguable...because the guest is clearly labeled as the protagonist) and Pirates...Peter Pan is an elf...and specifically androgynous...I cant think of where that character fits on this lineup.

Rides with female leads? Little Mermaid.

Its not exactly like the theme park has much specifically gendered lead characters...Its a virtual tie at 1 vs 1.

That being said, many of the rides that are not on this list are not really geared very strongly at either gender...Pooh, Space Mt, BTM, Splash, JC, Tiki Room, etc...

I would say its a vast overstatement to claim there is a lack of female lead representation at the MK, when there is basically a tie at 1 and the vast majority aren't geared toward either direction.
It's not just MK, there is much more emphasis on boys toys, games, shows, etc. When I was like 6 or 7 I thought only boys could do certain things simply because there was not enough female representation for me to see a girl like me doing stuff. I don't see the problem with empowering young girls - even if it is a pirate. Jack Sparrow is still there for the little boys to be represented by.
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
I prefer my kids don't see pirates as heros. The auctioning off of people shows them that pirates aren't good. Depicting them as just auctioning off goods doesn't give a clear picture of who/what pirates are. The scene they are destroying really brings home the point that pirates aren't good. Without that scene the point is missed.

Easy solution, don't take them on the ride.
 

Bender123

Well-Known Member
It's not just MK, there is much more emphasis on boys toys, games, shows, etc. When I was like 6 or 7 I thought only boys could do certain things simply because there was not enough female representation for me to see a girl like me doing stuff. I don't see the problem with empowering young girls - even if it is a pirate. Jack Sparrow is still there for the little boys to be represented by.

Except that the Red Head is arguably the most memorable part of the ride already...I seriously doubt anybody wants their children to dream of being a narcissistic, arrogant and greedy pirate. Up until Depp was added to the ride, the count was strongly female led attractions...Snow White...with a commanding 1 attraction to none lead. /sarcasm

Im fine with representation, but if anything, and the surveys confirm, there is very little of interest for boys at MK...Universal seems fine eating that demographic up.

As I stated, the representation argument is really a bad argument when it comes to a park where there is virtually nothing that specifically genders its protagonists and the one male lead one is very much an anti-hero.

When you hit Epcot, the only human protagonist rides are Frozen and JII...I don't know of any little boy that dreams of becoming Nigel Channing.

The Studios have Aerosmith...I think that counts. Who doesn't want to be Aerosmith?

AK has no rides with human leads...maybe Dinosaur? Every kid dreams of being that guy who screws up everything.

Its really insane that when you look at WDW all together there are very few rides with a defined protagonist and even more rare where they are specifically gendered. On the entire property, you, definitively, get two rides lead by human princesses and zero rides with male leads (but one male anti-hero and one scientist who tries to stop you).

Its just a really bad argument to make, not because it isn't an important thing to discuss, but because there really isn't a place for it in a park that specifically avoids gender based rides as a matter of course.
 

OneofThree

Well-Known Member
Evidently, this was one of the top Disney news stories of 2017. P. Werner & Co. ridiculed the move, while also suggesting the addition of a female pirate without the removal of the key scene. The panelists lead with it:

 

becca_

Well-Known Member
Except that the Red Head is arguably the most memorable part of the ride already...I seriously doubt anybody wants their children to dream of being a narcissistic, arrogant and greedy pirate. Up until Depp was added to the ride, the count was strongly female led attractions...Snow White...with a commanding 1 attraction to none lead. /sarcasm

Im fine with representation, but if anything, and the surveys confirm, there is very little of interest for boys at MK...Universal seems fine eating that demographic up.

As I stated, the representation argument is really a bad argument when it comes to a park where there is virtually nothing that specifically genders its protagonists and the one male lead one is very much an anti-hero.

When you hit Epcot, the only human protagonist rides are Frozen and JII...I don't know of any little boy that dreams of becoming Nigel Channing.

The Studios have Aerosmith...I think that counts. Who doesn't want to be Aerosmith?

AK has no rides with human leads...maybe Dinosaur? Every kid dreams of being that guy who screws up everything.

Its really insane that when you look at WDW all together there are very few rides with a defined protagonist and even more rare where they are specifically gendered. On the entire property, you, definitively, get two rides lead by human princesses and zero rides with male leads (but one male anti-hero and one scientist who tries to stop you).

Its just a really bad argument to make, not because it isn't an important thing to discuss, but because there really isn't a place for it in a park that specifically avoids gender based rides as a matter of course.
Either way... they're doing it... agree or not. MK will still exist and people will still go there and ride POTC and one day people will bring their children and they will never know a ride in which women were sold off to men. Amazing how things change!!
 

Bender123

Well-Known Member
Either way... they're doing it... agree or not. MK will still exist and people will still go there and ride POTC and one day people will bring their children and they will never know a ride in which women were sold off to men. Amazing how things change!!

Except that's a different argument than your original...The fact remains that pirates are bad people and no part of this change makes them "heroes" or "representative". All we have now is a ride that has a nonsensical story and the most recognizable scene no longer exists. Its not a matter of "amazing how things change" so much as "Why are we taking a woman who was the most visible of the non-pirates and turning her into a bad guy." Removing the scene doesn't change that pirates did pirate things...All it changes is that we have a dumbed down version of pirates that was already dumbed down to make them family friendly.
 

RustySpork

Oscar Mayer Memer
Except that's a different argument than your original...The fact remains that pirates are bad people and no part of this change makes them "heroes" or "representative". All we have now is a ride that has a nonsensical story and the most recognizable scene no longer exists. Its not a matter of "amazing how things change" so much as "Why are we taking a woman who was the most visible of the non-pirates and turning her into a bad guy." Removing the scene doesn't change that pirates did pirate things...All it changes is that we have a dumbed down version of pirates that was already dumbed down to make them family friendly.

Goes to a forum about a theme park thats focus is fantasy, complains that a ride is based on fantasy and not reality.
 

ThistleMae

Well-Known Member
I think most of us expect firms (particularly MNC's) to commit to a certain degree of sustainable operations. The problem with your point IMO, is that no one is harmed by the ride, and the potential for any positive, productive outcomes of the change is highly questionable. This is why I termed the move as "politics, for politics' sake". The product here is fantasy -escape. It's what WDW is all about, has always been all about.[/QUO

This is what you said that I replied to: "Really, I have to question the sanity of anyone depending upon a fantasy theme park ride to define or forward important social concerns. This is ridiculous." I don't understand your response? (see bolded)
 

ThistleMae

Well-Known Member
I'll take that as affirmation.



Lol -no. I've got three daughters; three. Please shoot me and put me in the ground the day I rely on a theme park ride to help inform their self-concepts or social values. Just wow.
I don't think anyone is saying that Disney is something you rely on to inform your daughters of their self-concepts. I personally was saying that Disney does make some efforts to educate in a positive way. Don't you think there are many things that contribute to social values?
 

Jack Wolfe

Active Member
The story is more than just a bit muddled now...You see the pirates all dead as a warning to those that seek money and wealth, then you flash back to pirates attacking a town trying to find Jonny Depp and his map, the pirates...have...an...auction (OK...why aren't they just stealing stuff...they are pirates), then the pirates drink, sing and...get beaten by...women with brooms? (Wait...what?)...then the pirates are in jail and Jonny Depp has...all...the...money? How? Why are the pirates in jail, now? If the pirates never got the treasure and gold, then how did they get cursed and all end up steering a ghost ship and dead on a beach?

See how these changes don't make sense? The only way this story makes sense is to just call it a series of scenes with little to nothing to do with each other...Just things happen and its done.

Any one change doesn't affect the story too much, but the sum total of the changes make the narrative broken and senseless...

No question, any semblance of a coherent narrative was lost long ago. But it does match well with most people's knowledge of the Golden Age of Piracy - fractured, jumbled, overly romanticised, and mostly incorrect. But then, Disney wasn't going for historical accuracy. It's meant more as a lighthearted romp that plays off nearly every popular trope about pirates as possible. Keep in mind that pirates and their misdeeds have been romanticised in popular culture for several hundred years. As have highwaymen, jewel thieves, bank robbers, serial killers, etc. Bad people make for good entertainment. And like any entertainment, if you don't like it, don't consume it. Simple as that.
 

OneofThree

Well-Known Member
Don't you think there are many things that contribute to social values?

I think that there are many dimensions which contribute. Whether or the extent to which any of these should or not is different matter entirely. A theme park ride occupies the bottom of that list.
 
And in our final year in review news story, someone watched 'Pirates of the Caribbean' on Netflix 365 days in a row in 2017! Wow! Which leads us to our next first story of the year....the infamous 50 plus year bidding war over the red head finally ended when one crazy pirate fan bid 365 gold doubloons.
 

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