News Cars-Themed Attractions at Magic Kingdom

[danlb_2000]

I don't think the railroad needs to close, there is already a pretty good size overpass of the tracks and the water behind fantasy land.
Both new lands should be using that

That is a pretty small road and is used for CM bussing. It would make more sense to temporarily shut down the railroad and directly connect the laydown yard to the construction site.

 

[ctrlaltdel]

I do think there is one major difference: Walt’s love of trains. I mean the trains are even named after the Disney family for the most part.

Plus depending where you get on the train you are transported to a new world! I hope a train stop is added with Villains. Imagine going from the American frontier to villains, a land twisted and broken and off again to fantasy land. The way the train picks you up and puts you into another world is a huge appeal.

Hadn't thought of it before, but a Villains stop makes a lot of sense. Biggest thing is the cost of adding a new station, which obviously could hold it back, and honestly the direction of the RR. Would actually make more sense to have one if the RR ran counterclockwise, as the walk from Fantasyland to where we think Villains is going to be is likely to be quite a much longer than from Frontierland (unless there is going to be Fantasyland entrance).

 

[EricsBiscuit]

since they are likely to totally drain the river it would not be hard to just use the drained portion of the canal as a connection under the bridge by BTMRR. That way they could keep the WDWRR open. I doubt it though we are probably looking at an extended closure because Disney always makes the decision that is worst for its guests.

 

[Incomudro]

Genuine question out of earnest curiosity.

I'm not at all saying they would (because I don't think they would), but if they were to come out and speak honestly and their honest opinion was that they approved it, then what would the response be? Would the fandom turn on these men that it loves to speak for and use as a defense of their points of view all because they don't echo that point of view?

Again, not saying they would be in agreement with Disney's decision, but more so this a little though experiment about how these three men in particular get used for a lot of conversation fodder by Disney fans who just assume they agree with everything Disney fans agree with.

I follow Joe on Instagram, and I would be truly shocked if he were to agree with the decision.
Everything he posts is about history, imagery, etc.

 

[Captain Barbossa]

since they are likely to totally drain the river it would not be hard to just use the drained portion of the canal as a connection under the bridge by BTMRR. That way they could keep the WDWRR open. I doubt it though we are probably looking at an extended closure because Disney always makes the decision that is worst for its guests.

There’s not enough clearance.

 

[Incomudro]

Despite what the concept art shows, and what the insiders are saying, I still have hope that they will reconsider filling in the entire river. Cars will sell merchandise for a while, sure, but will Cars still be relevant in 15-20 years? Also, no matter how many rocks, creeks, and waterfalls are planned for the "new" area, the cars with eyeballs zooming past you will destroy the cohesiveness of Liberty Square and Frontierland. The west side of MK was designed to tell a cohesive story from the dawn of America starting in Liberty Square, and then the acquisition of land up to the Mississippi shown by the CBJ and TSI, followed by the Louisiana Purchase shown by Tiana's, and ending with further western expansion shown by BTM. Not to mention all the screaming in a once peaceful area, and the fact that everything was built to look like a waterfront town. With all this being said, if this really goes through as shown, I feel like in the long term, Disney will lose what relevance they have left, and people will stop returning to the parks due to their lack of cohesiveness, originality, nostalgia, and charm. Drew was right, this is the worst mistake they're making, and if you don't care about saving part of what makes the Magic Kingdom so unique and charming, then don't come on here crying when they replace your favorite classic MK attraction for whatever suits the company's latest IP.

I agree with virtually everything you said, but I don't think we'll be able to see the cars until we get into the actual land.

 

[Purduevian]

Exactly! They could shorten it and increase park capacity. The boat could go 4-5 times an hour giving a THRC of at least 1600+. Not to mention keeping TSI.

What makes this puzzling is that the front area they’re going to build the Cars area in is not enough space to make a decent attraction. It’s too small. It’s gonna be terrible.

Plenty of room

View attachment 809046
quick google mapping of other thrilling rides:
Big Thunder ~86,000 Sq ft
Mine Train ~85,000 sq ft
Space ~90,000 sq ft
TT ~136,000 sqft
Guardians ~182,000 sqft
Rise ~97,000 sqft
SDD:~130,000 sqft
Dinosaur ~81,000 sqft
Everest: ~145,000 sqft

 

[October82]

Is it possible that Imagineers might read all of our comments here and say:


"Look Sam,...these people are complaining about attraction "sightlines"...hahaha...who really cares?"

"Hey Maria,...these geeks are complaining that our barges ruin the look of the lagoon during the day...who really cares?"

"Juan, check this out...these weirdos think that Cars ruins the "feel" of Frontier land...who really cares?"

"Of course Dave,....of course they are calling our new hotel remodel masterpiece "bland"...because all they want are wild "themes" and wild "decorations"....these people have too much time on their hands....Who really cares?

"Hey Joe, these people are OVERTHINKING this again,...they complain about there NOT being mountains in the Louisiana Bayou...who really cares?"

"Well, Jane,...here these nerds go again. They don't like our new Epcot park bench area. It took MASSIVE amounts of money and took us 6 years of HARD work to design and build this amazing area and all they do is complain and nit-pick about it....who really cares?"

I don't know anymore. Maybe many of us here care more then we should. Maybe we are the last remnant of a dying customer-type. Maybe our standards are old-fashioned and don't match up with modern Imagineering in 2024. Maybe it's time to stop looking at and admiring all the old-fashioned details as much as we do?

Maybe WE take this stuff more seriously than Burbank and Glendale do in 2024?? (And this is OUR fault?)

Maybe people in Burbank and Glendale are reading this and clapping their hands saying:

"YES!!!...this is the truest post this guy has ever typed!...now go away please...we don't need old legacy fans like you anymore"

I follow Joe on Instagram, and I would be truly shocked if he were to agree with the decision.
Everything he posts is about history, imagery, etc.

As evidenced by Joe's instagram - and if you know any designers in any industry - they are artists and take this stuff seriously. That doesn't mean their managers do.

Disney's core fans that also care about this stuff didn't imagine its importance. Disney actively cultivated the idea that these things matter in decades of their marketing. Disney (arguably) didn't invent themed entertainment, but they did the most to advance and perfect it, and people responded and became fans of it because details, sightlines, and experience matter. Although the Disney Parks are a niche example of this, these are also things that architects and designers of all sorts have understood, for a very long time, when designing other spaces people choose to spend time in.

Should you care at this point? That's up to you. But it's certainly something I think about when deciding whether to spend several thousand dollars on a DLR/WDW vacation. As you say, people like me may longer be the target market for a WDW vacation, but that also means that my $$$ goes to people that do care about these sorts of things. A trip to Disney is no longer a priority for me in the same way I'm not a priority for Disney.

I don't think I'm alone in that. Even if the reasons less invested people explicitly give may not include the words 'theme' or 'sightline'.

 

[UNCgolf]

I think this is really true long term.

It is very easy to say and often correct that, right now, such-and-such IP is more relevant/popular than any broader theme in a park. However, time passes and the relevance of most IPs fades. We're really at the early stage of theme parks building immersive lands around single IPs that began with Harry Potter at Universal. How this will pan out in the longer term will be interesting to see.

Imagine if the Magic Kingdom developed during its early years into Aristocats Square, Herbie the Love Bug Land, Sherwood Forrest, and Jungle Book Land. What it have just stayed like that and become as popular as it has? Would they have had to completely demolish and rebuild lands based on more recent IPs multiple times since 1971? Or would it have ended up more like EPCOT Center with things being chopped and changed over the years, some old remaining alongside the new, and all the things for which people had nostalgia being cut and moving to some liminal space where they are referenced but not present in the park?

Universal has already had to deal with this, albeit on a smaller scale. Almost every single attraction from USF has been replaced since the park opened because the IP became outdated. They weren't generally surrounded by fully themed lands, which made it easier, but it does show the potential limits of relying heavily on IP as the draw.

I personally think most of the old USF attractions were significantly better than their replacements, but that's not because of the IP attached -- they just had more interesting designs.

 

[easyrowrdw]

I came across this article and I thought it brought up interesting points about the approaches Disney and Universal are taking.

Disney World's Latest Closure Announcement Is Part Of A Disturbing Trend That Could Have Long Term Consequences

Many of Disney World and Disneyland's recent closures have something in common.

www.yahoo.com

 

[el_super]

It is very easy to say and often correct that, right now, such-and-such IP is more relevant/popular than any broader theme in a park. However, time passes and the relevance of most IPs fades. We're really at the early stage of theme parks building immersive lands around single IPs that began with Harry Potter at Universal. How this will pan out in the longer term will be interesting to see.

Imagine if the Magic Kingdom developed during its early years into Aristocats Square, Herbie the Love Bug Land, Sherwood Forrest, and Jungle Book Land.

Let's not pretend though, that the original designers were somehow unencumbered by their own pop culture biases. Wild West shoot-em-ups were insanely popular in cinema and eventually on TV throughout the 1940s and 1950s. The spirit of 76 was gripping the nation in the late 60s and early 70s as America tried to move on from the turbulent 1960s.

Frontierland, the River, and Liberty Square were all built because it was what the Imagineers thought people of 1970 would want and enjoy. Sure it took some 50 years (probably realistically 40) but yes, things eventually do get tired and old and unwanted.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

As an Epcot fan, I would recommend all MK fans prepare for the reality of these MK's 2028 additions...

A storage warehouse named Aunt Polly's Dance Hall and a commercial swimming pool titled Mr. Toad's Wild Rivers of Treasonous America...

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

This solution unfortunately makes it impossible for the boat to reach the dry dock which it needs to remain operational.

Well the one I drew left the canal connected - the path would have a draw bridge. The other option is a dock on stage like at Disneyland, DLP, Tokyo.

When do we think ROA and TSI will shut down?

Earliest would be after New Years and I’ve heard it could be as late as next fall.

Is it possible that Imagineers might read all of our comments here and say

I’m sure there are many imagineers working on this project that don’t agree with it - but this call came from higher up.

I do think there is one major difference: Walt’s love of trains. I mean the trains are even named after the Disney family for the most part.

The trains would be parked as a museum piece. Maybe with an AA of Walt in the engineers seat

 

[October82]

Universal has already had to deal with this, albeit on a smaller scale. Almost every single attraction from USF has been replaced since the park opened because the IP became outdated. They weren't generally surrounded by fully themed lands, which made it easier, but it does show the potential limits of relying heavily on IP as the draw.

I personally think most of the old USF attractions were significantly better than their replacements, but that's not because of the IP attached -- they just had more interesting designs.

I don't think these things are unrelated. Costs for modern day Disney (and Universal) attractions are very high which forces less ambitious and risk taking designs. It's only projects at the top end, like Forbidden Journey, that don't seem to face the same problem.

If I had to guess, a larger fraction of project budgets are being spent on the IP aspects (either within the attraction itself or in building 'mini-lands' for each IP) than on the ride design/ride experience itself. Causality also goes both ways here as higher costs incentivize less risk by tying everything to a recognizable and more directly monetizable brand.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

Yeah, if old school Disney World did something crazy with single IP areas (like say an entire island just be based on a Mark Twain book) then eventually it would no longer be relevant and require a major overhaul

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

 

[UNCgolf]

I don't think these things are unrelated. Costs for modern day Disney (and Universal) attractions are very high which forces less ambitious and risk taking designs. It's only projects at the top end, like Forbidden Journey, that don't seem to face the same problem.

If I had to guess, a larger fraction of project budgets are being spent on the IP aspects (either within the attraction itself or in building 'mini-lands' for each IP) than on the ride design/ride experience itself. Causality also goes both ways here as higher costs incentivize less risk by tying everything to a recognizable and more directly monetizable brand.

I wasn't very impressed by Forbidden Journey, but that's because far too much of the ride is a broom flight simulator. I'm not a big fan of simulators in general (or of anything that makes you just watch a movie play out in front of you for part of the attraction), but some are much better than others, and I don't think the simulator aspects in FJ are very good or interesting.

But that's not relevant to the point you're making, and I think you may be on to something.

 

[KDM31091]

Is it possible that Imagineers might read all of our comments here and say:


"Look Sam,...these people are complaining about attraction "sightlines"...hahaha...who really cares?"

"Hey Maria,...these geeks are complaining that our barges ruin the look of the lagoon during the day...who really cares?"

"Juan, check this out...these weirdos think that Cars ruins the "feel" of Frontier land...who really cares?"

"Of course Dave,....of course they are calling our new hotel remodel masterpiece "bland"...because all they want are wild "themes" and wild "decorations"....these people have too much time on their hands....Who really cares?

"Hey Joe, these people are OVERTHINKING this again,...they complain about there NOT being mountains in the Louisiana Bayou...who really cares?"

"Well, Jane,...here these nerds go again. They don't like our new Epcot park bench area. It took MASSIVE amounts of money and took us 6 years of HARD work to design and build this amazing area and all they do is complain and nit-pick about it....who really cares?"

I don't know anymore. Maybe many of us here care more then we should. Maybe we are the last remnant of a dying customer-type. Maybe our standards are old-fashioned and don't match up with modern Imagineering in 2024. Maybe it's time to stop looking at and admiring all the old-fashioned details as much as we do?

Maybe WE take this stuff more seriously than Burbank and Glendale do in 2024?? (And this is OUR fault?)

Maybe people in Burbank and Glendale are reading this and clapping their hands saying:

"YES!!!...this is the truest post this guy has ever typed!...now go away please...we don't need old legacy fans like you anymore"

The problem to me is that for the premium prices Disney charges they need to care. That’s what sets them apart. It not, there are many cheaper options for entertainment.

 

[Dizknee_Phreek]

The problem to me is that for the premium prices Disney charges they need to care. That’s what sets them apart. It not, there are many cheaper options for entertainment.

Exactly. If they no longer care about the full guest experience, why should we care about giving them our hard earned dollars? After all, Disney trips are a luxury. And if that luxury doesn't give guests the same ROI that it used to, people will take their money elsewhere. I guess the guest ROI varies person to person depending on what the guest is looking for in the experience. But if they keep pushing their diehard fans further and further away, then what? Is that sustainable long-term? Guess time will tell.

 

[James Alucobond]

The problem to me is that for the premium prices Disney charges they need to care. That’s what sets them apart. It not, there are many cheaper options for entertainment.

IMO, the sightlines are not the thing to be concerned about here, at least not yet. Yes, you’re losing specific vistas and the original feel of the space, and certain attractions like the Haunted Mansion may end up feeling more poorly sited; however, significant spend is going into making sure the entire area looks finished from all angles, even if you think it’s not as attractive, restful, or intentional-looking. When I think of sightline issues (particularly that impact guest perception of value), I think of the TRON box looming over Storybook Circus, the Cosmic Rewind box dominating the World Discovery skyline, or the poor backstage views of Ratatouille you witness on the skyliner.

 

[TrainsOfDisney]

After all, Disney trips are a luxury. And if that luxury doesn't give guests the same ROI that it used to, people will take their money elsewhere.

Yeah - there’s something to this. The cars expansion looks like something that Herschend would build at Dollywood or Silver Dollar City - which is good. That’s fun.

But Disney used to create an experience that couldn’t be matched anywhere else.