Captain Marvel 2: "The Marvels" -- Nov 10, 2023 Theatrical Release

[erasure fan1]

You continue to pretend quality equals popularity, which is a completely untenable position. Again, we can go through the history of popular culture to see how foolish that position really is.

It's never just black and white though. I agree, popularity, doesn't always translate to what you define as quality. Sometimes it can. What people find to be quality can differ greatly. So just because you think this show was the gold standard in quality, doesn't make it so. You said "there are many, many completely valid reasons not to watch the show". So don't you think that those reasons could make the show not so high quality in some peoples eyes? Again it's all subjective.

The disconnect you’re looking for is that a lot of posters here claim that all they want from Disney is “quality,” but for some reason don’t want this particular, highly acclaimed program. So rather then address that disconnect honestly, they’re looking for ways to denigrate it… for instance, by linking popularity to quality.

I'm not denigrating it. I personally don't think it's as high of a quality show as you do. And I said based on viewership, a lot of people probably feel the same. I've also said, who cares, the show wasn't really aimed at me. I also said I think it's good they make these types of stories. Where I run into issues, is this culture of, blaming performance on the ones who didn't like it because it has to be their flawed morals. If it's misunderstood, blame Disney and their marketing or the people it was marketed to that didn't watch.

To understand why Ms Marvel didn’t find an audience and why some here are so determined to attack it you have to be willing to address all these motivations, the vast majority innocent but more than we’d like to admit quite nefarious.

Yes, people attack it in bad faith for whatever reasons. What started this was the implication that some YouTubers had some dramatic effect on this shows performance. I just don't see it. I'm sure you will tell me I just don't want to see it. But when you see the hate that was thrust on something like Hogwarts legacy, yet it still managed to be a number one seller, shows me the impact isn't as great as people think. No one is denying that there's ugly trolls on the internet hell bent on bashing Disney, and others, for stupid reasons. It's just not why this show didn't connect.

 

[Casper Gutman]

It's never just black and white though. I agree, popularity, doesn't always translate to what you define as quality. Sometimes it can. What people find to be quality can differ greatly. So just because you think this show was the gold standard in quality, doesn't make it so. You said "there are many, many completely valid reasons not to watch the show". So don't you think that those reasons could make the show not so high quality in some peoples eyes? Again it's all subjective.

I'm not denigrating it. I personally don't think it's as high of a quality show as you do. And I said based on viewership, a lot of people probably feel the same. I've also said, who cares, the show wasn't really aimed at me. I also said I think it's good they make these types of stories. Where I run into issues, is this culture of, blaming performance on the ones who didn't like it because it has to be their flawed morals. If it's misunderstood, blame Disney and their marketing or the people it was marketed to that didn't watch.

Yes, people attack it in bad faith for whatever reasons. What started this was the implication that some YouTubers had some dramatic effect on this shows performance. I just don't see it. I'm sure you will tell me I just don't want to see it. But when you see the hate that was thrust on something like Hogwarts legacy, yet it still managed to be a number one seller, shows me the impact isn't as great as people think. No one is denying that there's ugly trolls on the internet hell bent on bashing Disney, and others, for stupid reasons. It's just not why this show didn't connect.

So why was Ms Marvel the best reviewed D+ series?

"Reasons people don't want to watch something" is in no way synonymous with "quality of that thing." The fact that someone doesn't like musicals is not a flaw with Singing in the Rain.

Which politicians and national news outlets have been attacking Harry Potter the way members of the same groups have been attacking Disney?

 

[erasure fan1]

So why was Ms Marvel the best reviewed D+ series? And why do you continually avoid that point?

I'm not avoiding it. And honestly, I don't know why it's the best reviewed. I just don't see it. But for the tenth time, it wasn't directed towards me. I could say the same thing to you. Why do you keep avoiding why so many didn't care for it? Here's what I've said. I didn't care for it and didn't think it was all that great. The vast majority of people didn't watch, for whatever reasons. And I think it's good they make things for other demographics. Why is this so controversial to you?

"Reasons people don't want to watch something" is in no way synonymous with "quality of that thing." The fact that someone doesn't like musicals is not a flaw with Singing in the Rain.

It is if you don't like musicals. Guess what? If I don't like lemon chicken, that doesn't mean I hate chicken, or Greeks. It means I don't like lemon in my chicken. That means I don't think it's good. But it doesn't mean, the dish is terrible for everyone. But if the vast majority of people who frequent a restaurant dislike it, they're probably taking it off the menu. Even though there's a group that likes it. It's how the world works. Now I'm not advocating they take ms marvel off the menu. I think D+ is the perfect place to tell these types of stories. And they should continue. It's why I've said, they shouldn't have cancelled muppets mayhem. A highly rated show that was loved by most who watched it but didn't find the mainstream viewership. Sound familiar? But you know what I didn't do? I didn't blame the people who didn't like or watch it, that it was because of sone hidden agendas. I'm sure there were some, but they didn't sink that ship. It's 100% on Disneys handling of the ip.

Which politicians and national news outlets have been attacking Harry Potter the way members of the same groups have been attacking Disney?

A bunch had stories. NBC la times... All ran stories about the so called controversy. But why are you bringing up national news and politicians? The argument was VLOGGERS impacted ms marvel? Your whole statement makes little sense. Hateful YouTubers and vloggers went after Hogwarts, the same way anti Disney vloggers have gone after Disney. It's probably worse with Hogwarts because not only did they go after the product. They made a blacklist to go after any creator playing it. I have yet to see a doomcock or any of that group go after others for watching a Disney film or show. But yet, the game still did fantastic.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I'm not avoiding it. And honestly, I don't know why it's the best reviewed. I just don't see it. But for the tenth time, it wasn't directed towards me. I could say the same thing to you. Why do you keep avoiding why so many didn't care for it? Here's what I've said. I didn't care for it and didn't think it was all that great. The vast majority of people didn't watch, for whatever reasons. And I think it's good they make things for other demographics. Why is this so controversial to you?

It is if you don't like musicals. Guess what? If I don't like lemon chicken, that doesn't mean I hate chicken, or Greeks. It means I don't like lemon in my chicken. That means I don't think it's good. But it doesn't mean, the dish is terrible for everyone. But if the vast majority of people who frequent a restaurant dislike it, they're probably taking it off the menu. Even though there's a group that likes it. It's how the world works. Now I'm not advocating they take ms marvel off the menu. I think D+ is the perfect place to tell these types of stories. And they should continue. It's why I've said, they shouldn't have cancelled muppets mayhem. A highly rated show that was loved by most who watched it but didn't find the mainstream viewership. Sound familiar? But you know what I didn't do? I didn't blame the people who didn't like or watch it, that it was because of sone hidden agendas. I'm sure there were some, but they didn't sink that ship. It's 100% on Disneys handling of the ip.

A bunch had stories. NBC la times... All ran stories about the so called controversy. But why are you bringing up national news and politicians? The argument was VLOGGERS impacted ms marvel? Your whole statement makes little sense. Hateful YouTubers and vloggers went after Hogwarts, the same way anti Disney vloggers have gone after Disney. It's probably worse with Hogwarts because not only did they go after the product. They made a blacklist to go after any creator playing it. I have yet to see a doomcock or any of that group go after others for watching a Disney film or show. But yet, the game still did fantastic.

You seem to be having real difficulty distinguishing between personal preference and product quality. I don't enjoy Stanley Kubrick but I understand that 2001 is a masterpiece. Those two facts are not in conflict in any way, shape, or form. I am also capable of going through media that I like and discussing its flaws. That doesn't mean I don't like it. Until you acknowledge the fact that personal preference and product quality are very, very different things, this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.

PS: What "demographic" is Ms Marvel for?

 

[erasure fan1]

Until you acknowledge the fact that personal preference and product quality are very, very different things, this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.

You mean like this?

If I don't like lemon chicken, that doesn't mean I hate chicken, or Greeks. It means I don't like lemon in my chicken. That means I don't think it's good. But it doesn't mean, the dish is terrible for everyone.

Seems I do understand. You're just choosing to not accept it or aren't reading what I'm saying.

I am also capable of going through media that I like and discussing its flaws. That doesn't mean I don't like it.

As am I, as I've proven time an time again discussing just about everything with Disney. Heck, even when I say I really liked something, and I criticize something about it. More often than not I can count on the DDS (that's the defend Disney squad) comes to say how wrong I am. I can also admit when something I like, isn't received well and completely underperforms. The funny thing, is we aren't talking about 2001, citizen kane, the godfather... We're talking about a marvel tv show. So quality is going to be a question mark and pretty subjective no matter how good it is.

PS: What "demographic" is Ms Marvel for?

The teen sitcom YA generation that skews to the female audience. And since I feel I have to repeat everything, that's perfectly fine. This thing wasn't marketed to the traditional 12 to 50yr old male audience. And before you say it could have been or superheros have always been for everyone. It was never going to get traction in that group with the way it was marketed.

 

[TP2000]

Can you please stop insinuating anyone that doesn’t care for Ms Marvel must be both misogynist and racist?

It's the only false argument they've got left. Even after a TV show fails miserably in the marketplace. And then the movie bombs.

You’re very vocal in terms of your opposition to the Tiana retheme, and none of us go there to hint you must harbor some racist ulterior beliefs. Similarly, you seem to really hate the last JJ Abrams Star Wars film - yet we don’t presume to suggest you’re anti semetic.

Someone could start doing that with him, but it would be a very weak position to start from. As it always is in the 2020's.

 

[DKampy]

Can you please stop insinuating anyone that doesn’t care for Ms Marvel must be both misogynist and racist? You’re very vocal in terms of your opposition to the Tiana retheme, and none of us go there to hint you must harbor some racist ulterior beliefs. Similarly, you seem to really hate the last JJ Abrams Star Wars film - yet we don’t presume to suggest you’re anti semitic.

The funny thing, is we aren't talking about 2001, citizen kane, the godfather... We're talking about a marvel tv show.

I am not saying Ms Marvel is, but why couldn’t a Marvel TV show be a masterpiece… I believe anything can be great no matter the genre of the right people are involved

 

[Casper Gutman]

I am not saying Ms Marvel is, but why couldn’t a Marvel TV show be a masterpiece… I believe anything can be great no matter the genre of the right people are involved

Yup… 2001 is a sci-fi film, Godfather is a gangster film. Those genres were just as “disreputable” as superhero films before they were legitimized by time and film quality. And the critical consensus was that, while Ms Marvel was not a masterpiece on that level, it was “great.”

 

[MagicHappens1971]

Could we quit the “where is season 2?” nonsense??? These D+ shows are (mostly) designed as “limited series/mini-series” that were simply created to tie into the larger MCU and “force” those invested in the MCU into maintaining a D+ subscription. Loki was always going to get a second season, it was part of the story. The “second season” of Ms. Marvel was The Marvels and the soon to be “Young Avengers” project.

 

[erasure fan1]

I am not saying Ms Marvel is, but why couldn’t a Marvel TV show be a masterpiece… I believe anything can be great no matter the genre of the right people are involved

I do agree with you, it sure could be. There's not much chance of it happening. People tend to want a bit more fun from their superhero entertainment, especially marvel. There's been some exceptions like Joker, the dark knight, but dc has really leaned into the more serious tone. Marvel for the most part, hasn't.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I do agree with you, it sure could be. There's not much chance of it happening. People tend to want a bit more fun from their superhero entertainment, especially marvel. There's been some exceptions like Joker, the dark knight, but dc has really leaned into the more serious tone. Marvel for the most part, hasn't.

“Serious tone” is in no way linked to quality and Joker is revered mainly because it gave insecure fans a super-serious psuedo-auteurist film they felt legitimized them. It tries SO HARD. Ms Marvel is a substantially better media product than Joker. (Dark Knight is pretty close to a masterpiece, however).

 

[MisterPenguin]

Could we quit the “where is season 2?” nonsense???

No way! I want to know where is Citizen Kane 2?!?!

 

[erasure fan1]

Ms Marvel is a substantially better media product than Joker. (Dark Knight is pretty close to a masterpiece, however).

I agree, I didn't like Joker at all. And if I get around to the last half of ms marvel, there's a good chance I think it's better. Loved dark knight through, it was fantastic.

“Serious tone” is in no way linked to quality

You are correct. But it is very much linked to masterpieces, and that was the discussion. Go through the greatest films of all time, on any list, and anything other than serious tone is few and far between. I'm a bit confused why you constantly shift the goal posts on this stuff. I never said serious tone equaled quality, or major media outlets were bashing Hogwarts legacy when I said vloggers, or popularity equals quality. You even said the discussion can't continue if I can't understand personal preference doesn't equal quality. In a response that literally said that exact same thing. You are very much trying to insert your own spin to make your opinion be the right one.

 

[Tha Realest]

“Serious tone” is in no way linked to quality and Joker is revered mainly because it gave insecure fans a super-serious psuedo-auteurist film they felt legitimized them.

That subset of fans did not propel it alone to over $1Bn worldwide, nor do they have outsized influence among the Academy voters which earned multiple awards and nominations.

 

[Disney Irish]

Could we quit the “where is season 2?” nonsense??? These D+ shows are (mostly) designed as “limited series/mini-series” that were simply created to tie into the larger MCU and “force” those invested in the MCU into maintaining a D+ subscription. Loki was always going to get a second season, it was part of the story. The “second season” of Ms. Marvel was The Marvels and the soon to be “Young Avengers” project.

I agree overall, but imagine that if Marvel wanted to have Young Avengers be a D+ exclusive before they move to the big screen (as some on this site even suggested they should do) we could get a season 2.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I agree, I didn't like Joker at all. And if I get around to the last half of ms marvel, there's a good chance I think it's better. Loved dark knight through, it was fantastic.

You are correct. But it is very much linked to masterpieces, and that was the discussion. Go through the greatest films of all time, on any list, and anything other than serious tone is few and far between. I'm a bit confused why you constantly shift the goal posts on this stuff. I never said serious tone equaled quality, or major media outlets were bashing Hogwarts legacy when I said vloggers, or popularity equals quality. You even said the discussion can't continue if I can't understand personal preference doesn't equal quality. In a response that literally said that exact same thing. You are very much trying to insert your own spin to make your opinion be the right one.

So “serious tone” is linked to masterpieces but not to quality? That’s deeply silly and demonstrably untrue. I’m not shifting goalposts, your position is illogical.

And in the post where you claim you demonstrated that you understand the difference between quality and personal preference, you replied to my statement,

The fact that someone doesn't like musicals is not a flaw with Singing in the Rain.

by saying “It is if you don't like musicals,” again proving that you don’t grasp the distinction.

 

[LSLS]

“Serious tone” is in no way linked to quality and Joker is revered mainly because it gave insecure fans a super-serious psuedo-auteurist film they felt legitimized them. It tries SO HARD. Ms Marvel is a substantially better media product than Joker. (Dark Knight is pretty close to a masterpiece, however).

Honestly I've been on your side for a lot of the debate here, but I don't think you can talk about reviewers and then ignore the 11 academy awards Joker was up for along with the like 100 other awards.

Honestly all this talk of quality and masterpiece is why I don't listen to a thing from reviewers personally. Give me something that is entertaining and I'll be happy. I thought Ms. Marvel was. This movie was at times, but there are other times (and things) that I was not into at all. I feel the idea of being entertained just gets lost in these discussions (by the way, this is not directed at you, just a general observation).

 

[Casper Gutman]

Honestly I've been on your side for a lot of the debate here, but I don't think you can talk about reviewers and then ignore the 11 academy awards Joker was up for along with the like 100 other awards.

The Academy Awards are a bad measure of anything except industry mood - look at Green Book and Crash and any number of others. Their relationship to comic book movies is… complicated.

Joker was not particularly well reviewed - it’s at 69% on Rotten Tomatoes, far behind a number of MCU films, and 59 on Metacritic. These are very, very blunt and often inaccurate tools, of course, but they can give a very general sense of critical sentiment. It can serve as a support to a very general statement such as, “Joker is not universally critically beloved.”

Everyone disagrees with critical consensus once in a while. When you care about film and that happens, it’s worth interrogating the source of the difference, a process that should begin with introspection. Why does the product not appeal to me? Is it simply personal taste? That’s almost certainly fine. Or are the critics wrong? That’s possible, but then one has to develop a coherent and convincing theory about WHY the critics are so uniformly incorrect.

 

[doctornick]

Honestly I've been on your side for a lot of the debate here, but I don't think you can talk about reviewers and then ignore the 11 academy awards Joker was up for along with the like 100 other awards.

Obviously, this is a very big tangent, but I find it somewhat fascinating about Joker. Personally, I thought it was terrible and boring, a pale imitation of quality Scorsese films. And interestingly if you look at the reviews, they really weren't all that great (the Rotten Tomato score was actual critics was 49%! and 69% overall; Metacritic score was a pedestrian 59)

But, yeah, it secured a lot of nominations and some wins during award season. Why then? Well, first of all was that Joaquin Phoenix did a fantastic job in the lead - sometimes actors can elevate poor material with transcendent performances and I think that happened here. And in recognizing him I think voters overrated the film in their minds.

But the second reason I think it did so well in that aspect of critical regards is because Hollywood is weird. And they "hate" superhero films. And how they were (are?) dominating the cinema scene. And much like how Hollywood folks always overrate and love movies about the entertainment industry, I just think they pushed this film trying to say "see comic book movies can be serious and dreary instead of entertaining fluff, so let's incentivize that" as a pushback. I find it hard to believe that that many people really found an off brand The King of Comedy to be worthy of such praise, but whatever.

If you want a serious comic book film to promote, Logan is the better choice. It's actually high quality even if depressing.

 

[erasure fan1]

So “serious tone” is linked to masterpieces but not to quality? That’s deeply silly and demonstrably untrue. I’m not shifting goalposts, your position is illogical.

Again, you're twisting words and putting them into a context to prove you win. I guess I'll have to spell it out, not that you'll read it. The conversation was, why couldn't a marvel show be considered masterpiece. I replied with because marvel sticks to a more lighthearted tone. And very few films that are considered masterpieces, aren't of a serious tone. You then said, so serious tones don't equal quality? Something I never said. We were talking about masterpieces, not if a marvel show can be quality. Winter soldier, extremely high quality. Masterpiece it is not.

And in the post where you claim you demonstrated that you understand the difference between quality and personal preference, you replied to my statement,

Go back and read. This post shows you aren't paying attention. I said that in the post you replied to that said I didn't understand. So you read my statement that my personal preference does not indicate the product is bad. Then replied to it saying unless you understand your personal preference doesn't indicate the product is bad.

by saying “It is if you don't like musicals,” again proving that you don’t grasp the distinction.

Again, out of the context of what was being talked about. You have some strange fixation with your opinion is the only right opinion. You keep talking in absolutes. I don't personally care what you or some film critic thinks is high quality. It's all subjective. You can love ms marvel, that's great, I really do believe that. And I've never said anything but my opinion and you constantly come back with these strange statements about how my opinion isn't a reflection of quality or whatever else. Even though I never said it was.