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Brown pavement in Liberty Square

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I'll just leave this here..

Is there anything in particular you'd like us to take away from this? As far as I can say, he's just parroting the commonly held idea that I outlined at the start of this thread. He says nothing about the fact that the "river of poop" didn't even exist when the land was first designed and opened.
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
For anyone interested, Molly Mc Cormack that worked for AllEars worked as a tour guide for the mouse…I can’t find it, but she did at least 1 video that talked about the leather straps on the shutters and the “River” in Liberty Square
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
My daughter also worked in the DCP and it was discussed several times in her training as well as on the Keys tour that both she and my wife went on.
 
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LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
For anyone interested, Molly Mc Cormack that worked for AllEars worked as a tour guide for the mouse…I can’t find it, but she did at least 1 video that talked about the leather straps on the shutters and the “River” in Liberty Square
My daughter also worked in the DCP and it was discussed several times in her training as well as on the Keys tour that both she and my wife went on.
I don't think anyone is denying that these claims are now part of CM training and official Disney tours. The thing that interests me is when (and why) they became part of the received wisdom. The "river of poop" was, as we have seen, a later invention, totally absent from the land's original conception. As for the leather hinges, I'm not sure when they become part of the land's mythology, but the shutters as originally designed and built were straight and not sagging (see the photos I posted above). Moreover, when you search for information about the use of such hinges for shutters in colonial times, all references seem to circle back to Disney.
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is denying that these claims are now part of CM training and official Disney tours. The thing that interests me is when (and why) they became part of the received wisdom. The "river of poop" was, as we have seen, a later invention, totally absent from the land's original conception. As for the leather hinges, I'm not sure when they become part of the land's mythology, but the shutters as originally designed and built were straight and not sagging (see the photos I posted above). Moreover, when you search for information about the use of such hinges for shutters in colonial times, all references seem to circle back to Disney.
I’ve been on half a dozen tours of the Freedom Trail in Boston, the HUB of the American Revolution…some of the houses had sagging hinges and that was explained to us by US PARK SERVICE OFFICIALS, so I guess they’re wrong too.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I’ve been on half a dozen tours of the Freedom Trail in Boston, the HUB of the American Revolution…some of the houses had sagging hinges and that was explained to us by US PARK SERVICE OFFICIALS, so I guess they’re wrong too.
I’m not saying they’re wrong; I said I myself couldn’t find a source. Thank you for sharing what you learnt from those officials—I’m glad to have some reliable information on the topic.

That doesn’t change the fact that the shutters in Liberty Square originally did not sag.
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
I’m not saying they’re wrong; I said I myself couldn’t find a source. Thank you for sharing what you learnt from those officials—I’m glad to have some reliable information on the topic.

That doesn’t change the fact that the shutters in Liberty Square originally did not sag.
Yup, an astute imagineer that probably visited Boston or was a Revolutionary war buff (like me) had enough insight to “plus” it.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Yup, an astute imagineer that probably visited Boston or was a Revolutionary war buff (like me) had enough insight to “plus” it.
Perhaps. Or maybe the sagging happened with time and they just went with it since they could spin it as a supposed nod to historical accuracy. Someone with lots of pictures of the buildings from different years would probably be able to tell us.
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
Perhaps. Or maybe the sagging happened with time and they just went with it since they could spin it as a supposed nod to historical accuracy. Someone with lots of pictures of the buildings from different years would probably be able to tell us.
If that were the case, they never would have replaced the metal ones with the leather straps.
Now you can fact check me on the Main Street flags…
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
If that were the case, they never would have replaced the metal ones with the leather straps.
Now you can fact check me on the Main Street flags…
They haven’t replaced them with leather straps. Even sources that claim the shutters are intentionally sagging note that the hinges are metal. You can see this for yourself by looking at photos:

shutter.jpg


bb2d699863d9f64d0ade20b5c5a4af12.jpg


As for the Main Street flags, they apparently have 45 stars, which would have been accurate for the period they represent:

 

CntrlFlPete

Well-Known Member
They haven’t replaced them with leather straps. Even sources that claim the shutters are intentionally sagging note that the hinges are metal. You can see this for yourself by looking at photos:

shutter.jpg


bb2d699863d9f64d0ade20b5c5a4af12.jpg


As for the Main Street flags, they apparently have 45 stars, which would have been accurate for the period they represent:


interesting! One 'story' I heard about the Main Street flags was that all of them are 'off' as to not be a real flag such that they would not have to fly at half-staff when the nation/state/company is in morning -- never studies all the flags to see if it is as simple as then only having 45 stars.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
interesting! One 'story' I heard about the Main Street flags was that all of them are 'off' as to not be a real flag such that they would not have to fly at half-staff when the nation/state/company is in morning -- never studies all the flags to see if it is as simple as then only having 45 stars.
I’ve heard and seen that story many times too! As far as I know, however, the Flag Code applies to all versions of the US flag, historical as well as current.
 

Smiley/OCD

Well-Known Member
The reason the flags are not 50 stars is if they were, they would either have to be Individually illuminated or raised and lowered each day. YES, LB, I was incorrect in the number of stars 45 not 48 but the only reason they are less is that they didn’t have to illuminate them. If they wanted to be 100% accurate, the main flag would’ve been the same flag since that would also represent the era/time period. I say the sky is blue, you say well, it’s not really blue, it’s actually azure. We can go on forever, so I’m tapping out.
 

Jenn Finan

New Member
It came up yesterday in a thread about Splash Mountain that the brown pavement running through Liberty Square is a reference to the sewage that would have filled the streets back in colonial times. The claim that this feature is a “river of poop” is repeated again and again online and can be found also in some more recent (unofficial) publications about Walt Disney World. In my quest to find an older and/or more authoritative source, however, I drew a blank. To complicate matters further, photos of Liberty Square from the 1970s and ’80s show a grey cobblestone/flagstone pavement where today’s supposed “river of poop” flows:

78HoP.jpg


94d74b4ee12b31c476c3eecd61cce5ff.jpg


WDW-11-1971-Fife%2B%2526%2BDrum.jpg


Does anyone know when and where the “river of poop” idea originated? Has Disney itself ever commented on it?
FWIW I did a Keys to the Kingdom tour back in 2010 or 2011 with a guide who was part of the the opening day cast so I trust here as being reliable and she made a point of bringing our attention to the brown pavement and also told the same story that it was to represent sewage....but a clean version in true Disney style!
 

CntrlFlPete

Well-Known Member
I’ve heard and seen that story many times too! As far as I know, however, the Flag Code applies to all versions of the US flag, historical as well as current.

to me, this story is more feasible. To avoid lowering at night, they would just need to illuminate them at night (which I see as an easier fix than the need to fly half-staff which cannot be avoided and I imagine the only solution would be some sort of auto raise/lower(store) device. Possibly theme related, possibly a way to make them non-current US flags. Doubt I will ever know the real truth.
 

LittleBuford

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
to me, this story is more feasible. To avoid lowering at night, they would just need to illuminate them at night (which I see as an easier fix than the need to fly half-staff which cannot be avoided and I imagine the only solution would be some sort of auto raise/lower(store) device. Possibly theme related, possibly a way to make them non-current US flags. Doubt I will ever know the real truth.
The interesting thing is that the American Legion and other organisations claim that all versions of the flag, including historical ones, are considered "active" (they all cite the Army Institute of Heraldry, but I found nothing on their website about it). If that is indeed the case, then Disney is flouting the Flag Code even with its turn-of-the-century 45 stars. I'm not sure, moreover, that Disney really cares given that it routinely ignores the code when it comes to merchandise ("The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery").
 

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