Brown pavement in Liberty Square

[LittleBuford]

[ETA: I found the answers to my questions in the Twitter thread I share below, so take a look at my subsequent posts before replying to this one!]

It came up yesterday in a thread about Splash Mountain that the brown pavement running through Liberty Square is a reference to the sewage that would have filled the streets back in colonial times. The claim that this feature is a “river of poop” is repeated again and again online and can be found also in some more recent (unofficial) publications about Walt Disney World. In my quest to find an older and/or more authoritative source, however, I drew a blank. To complicate matters further, photos of Liberty Square from the 1970s and ’80s show a grey cobblestone/flagstone pavement where today’s supposed “river of poop” flows:

Does anyone know when and where the “river of poop” idea originated? Has Disney itself ever commented on it?

 

[celluloid]

It has been in trainings for years and has even gone so far as in my Traditons of 2011 when I was on the CP that it is also the reason there are no restrooms in Liberty Square, as the sewage would be dumped from the buildings themselves.

In truth the bricks were hard to maintain and the replacement filler pavement occurred. I think it was some retro funny though that became legend. Like a big old version of the ring embedded in ground at exit of Haunted Mansion for years, when it was actually just an old gate post remains.

The truth is Liberty Square does have a restroom in Columbia Harbor House(it is a food establishment after all) and the reason there is not elsewhere until you are technically in Fantasyland or Frontierland is well, Liberty Square is just a small area.

 

[LittleBuford]

I just found this—after creating the thread, of course!—and it basically solves the mystery (read the full conversation):



So it seems the brown concrete (together with the legend that accompanies it) dates no earlier than than the 2000s.

ETA: For those who don’t read to the bottom of the conversation, here’s what the retired Imagineer Donald Holmquist, Liberty Square’s design developer, had to say when asked about it:

 

[LittleBuford]

It has been in trainings for years and has even gone so far as in my Traditons of 2011 when I was on the CP that it is also the reason there are no restrooms in Liberty Square, as the sewage would be dumped from the buildings themselves.

In truth the bricks were hard to maintain and the replacement filler pavement occurred. I think it was some retro funny though that became legend. Like a big old version of the ring embedded in ground at exit of Haunted Mansion for years, when it was actually just an old gate post remains.

The truth is Liberty Square does have a restroom in Columbia Harbor House(it is a food establishment after all) and the reason there is not elsewhere until you are technically in Fantasyland or Frontierland is well, Liberty Square is just a small area.

Thanks! I’m surprised it’s ended up in actual CM trainings. I guess it makes for a good story.

 

[celluloid]

Thanks! I’m surprised it’s ended up in actual CM trainings. I guess it makes for a good story.

Those on the job training days, the CMs get away with a lot of information, as long as they are hyping the Cast it seems to be whatever. It was also once lead primarily by ex entertainment people, so they tend to have a flare for exaggerating the truth or just build on what was told of them. We all sat in Columbia Harbor house pre restaurant opening to hear that detail of the land and then our faccilator, who was an ex Mad hatter entertainment Cast Member gave the backstory of a man who build a house for his bride on the hill, a botched Phantom Manor story. The idea of the ring was also pointed out.
I was just happy to ride Haunted Mansion on the clock. Then it was back to a training classroom in a small buildings near there where we had a weird video from Phil Holmes. That much time is not even spent anymore on Cast Members if I have heard right since.

 

[LittleBuford]

I just found this—after creating the thread, of course!—and it basically solves the mystery (read the full conversation):



So it seems the brown concrete (together with the legend that accompanies it) dates no earlier than than the 2000s.

ETA: For those who don’t read to the bottom of the conversation, here’s what the retired Imagineer Donald Holmquist, Liberty Square’s design developer, had to say when asked about it:

The Twitter thread continues after I thought it had ended. I just made it down to the actual end, and it turns out the when the brown pavement was introduced in the late ’90s (not 2000s, as I earlier stated), it “WAS intended to be a subtle nod to colonial sewage”—at least according to an unnamed Imagineer who contacted the author of the thread, who goes on to say, “it was likely meant to be an ‘under the radar’ thing, or a harmless joke”.

It’s interesting to think of later Imagineers retconning things in this way.

 

[nickys]

It came up yesterday in a thread about Splash Mountain that the brown pavement running through Liberty Square is a reference to the sewage that would have filled the streets back in colonial times. The claim that this feature is a “river of poop” is repeated again and again online and can be found also in some more recent (unofficial) publications about Walt Disney World. In my quest to find an older and/or more authoritative source, however, I drew a blank. To complicate matters further, photos of Liberty Square from the 1970s and ’80s show a grey cobblestone/flagstone pavement where today’s supposed “river of poop” flows:

Does anyone know when and where the “river of poop” idea originated? Has Disney itself ever commented on it?

I thought they were meant to represent the cobblestones of the old roads.

On our Keys to the Kingdom tour we spent quite a bit of time in Liberty Square looking at the Imagineering features there.

 

[JoeCamel]

I thought they were meant to represent the cobblestones of the old roads.

On our Keys to the Kingdom tour we spent quite a bit of time in Liberty Square looking at the Imagineering features there.

My Keys guide repeated the sewage story, I tend to think it wasn't intended when they paved it.

 

[Hakunamatata]

It came up yesterday in a thread about Splash Mountain that the brown pavement running through Liberty Square is a reference to the sewage that would have filled the streets back in colonial times. The claim that this feature is a “river of poop” is repeated again and again online and can be found also in some more recent (unofficial) publications about Walt Disney World. In my quest to find an older and/or more authoritative source, however, I drew a blank. To complicate matters further, photos of Liberty Square from the 1970s and ’80s show a grey cobblestone/flagstone pavement where today’s supposed “river of poop” flows:

Does anyone know when and where the “river of poop” idea originated? Has Disney itself ever commented on it?

Fairly certain during a Keys to the Kingdom tour back in 2002 or 2003 it was mentioned by a CM.

 

[nickys]

Interested by. My Keys tour was in 2012 and there was no mention of the sewage, just the cobbles. Must depend on the Guide.

 

[JIMINYCR]

I remember it being told to us on our Keys tour both times we took it. After the first tour in which my DS was young, he refused to walk or step in the "sewage path". And the story does appear in several different Disney trivia books so it will continue on as a fact.

 

[JoeCamel]

I remember it being told to us on our Keys tour both times we took it. After the first tour in which my DS was young, he refused to walk or step in the "sewage path". And the story does appear in several different Disney trivia books so it will continue on as a fact.

If you people watch along that area you can spot those that know the story......

 

[LittleBuford]

I remember it being told to us on our Keys tour both times we took it. After the first tour in which my DS was young, he refused to walk or step in the "sewage path". And the story does appear in several different Disney trivia books so it will continue on as a fact.

I took the tour back in 2017 but can’t recall what our guide said about it (if anything). It does make you wonder just how many of these oft-repeated facts are more legend than anything else. The other one you hear in relation to Liberty Square is that the shutters sag because in colonial times they used leather hinges. Yet when you look at old pictures of the same buildings, you’ll see that that the shutters are straight!

 

[LittleBuford]

Interested by. My Keys tour was in 2012 and there was no mention of the sewage, just the cobbles. Must depend on the Guide.

It also depends on if they’re referring to the original intention (cobbles) or the ’90s redo (sewage, albeit probably jokingly). The chronology is nicely traced in the Twitter thread I shared above.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

It has been in trainings for years and has even gone so far as in my Traditons of 2011 when I was on the CP that it is also the reason there are no restrooms in Liberty Square, as the sewage would be dumped from the buildings themselves.

In truth the bricks were hard to maintain and the replacement filler pavement occurred. I think it was some retro funny though that became legend. Like a big old version of the ring embedded in ground at exit of Haunted Mansion for years, when it was actually just an old gate post remains.

The truth is Liberty Square does have a restroom in Columbia Harbor House(it is a food establishment after all) and the reason there is not elsewhere until you are technically in Fantasyland or Frontierland is well, Liberty Square is just a small area.

There is also a restroom in Liberty Tree Tavern on the small second floor.

Here is a picture of Liberty Square with the faux cobblestone instead of brown pavement:

 

[LittleBuford]

After the first tour in which my DS was young, he refused to walk or step in the "sewage path".

Off-topic, but I’m surprised they let him join the tour. You have to be at least 16 to take it now, which was the policy also back in 2017.

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

This has to be the "crappiest" post I have read...

 

[Disstevefan1]

I just found this—after creating the thread, of course!—and it basically solves the mystery (read the full conversation):



So it seems the brown concrete (together with the legend that accompanies it) dates no earlier than than the 2000s.

ETA: For those who don’t read to the bottom of the conversation, here’s what the retired Imagineer Donald Holmquist, Liberty Square’s design developer, had to say when asked about it:

After all these years and even told in traditions classes it was said to be poop.

The reality was budget cuts.

I liked it better when it was poop.

Poop is a better show than budget cuts.

Thanks for showing me more reality that I never wanted. I deal with enough reality on a daily basis.

 

[LittleBuford]

After all these years and even told in traditions classes it was said to be poop.

The reality was budget cuts.

I liked it better when it was poop.

Poop is a better show than budget cuts.

Thanks for showing me more reality that I never wanted. I deal with enough reality on a daily basis.

There's a fecal twist at the end of it all:

The Twitter thread continues after I thought it had ended. I just made it down to the actual end, and it turns out the when the brown pavement was introduced in the late ’90s (not 2000s, as I earlier stated), it “WAS intended to be a subtle nod to colonial sewage”—at least according to an unnamed Imagineer who contacted the author of the thread, who goes on to say, “it was likely meant to be an ‘under the radar’ thing, or a harmless joke”.

It’s interesting to think of later Imagineers retconning things in this way.

So you can still legitimately think of it as poo!

 

[celluloid]

It is the kind of thing that needs to be debated now that Imagineering Show Writing does not have as much to do as they used to.