Bob Chapek's response to Florida's 'Don't Say Gay' bill

Status
Not open for further replies.

Willmark

Well-Known Member
It usually just means someone is incapable of having an adult conversation when all they can do is mock others.

It says more about the person using it than whatever it is in response to.
As a point of order there is one poster who was about 99% responsible for the ban on the laughing emoji.

Said poster was banned from the Political Forum and would still read it and add the laughing emoji to every post (or nearly so) to every post they disagree with.

And said poster? Let’s just say that they would not be in favor of this bill.

Now back to the sidelines watching the exchanges. Pass the popcorn!
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Here are the steps outlined in the bill that a parent and school board must both take and complete before a parent can sue a school district for non-compliance with this law.

1. Karen notifies the school principal that they have a concern regarding this law (a teacher including sexual orientation in curriculum for 2nd graders, for example). The principal has 7 days to respond to the parent and explain and/or correct the concern.
2. Karen isn't happy with the principal's resolution, and notifies the School District that the law is being violated. The School District has 30 days to investigate, respond and explain and/or correct the concern.
3. Karen isn't happy with the School District's resolution, and notifies the Florida Commisioner of Education, who then appoints a special magistrate who must have at least 5 years of experience in administrative law. The special magistrate conducts an investigation of the concern with the school district, and must render a recommended resolution to the State Board of Education within 30 days.
4. The State Board of Education then has 30 days to approve or reject the recommended resolution by the special magistrate and notify Karen of their decision. The costs of this process must be born by the school district, and not Karen.
5. If at that point Karen still thinks the principal, the school district, and the state Board of Education are all still allowing this law to be violated, Karen can then sue her local school.

It's all found on pages 5 and 6 of the bill. It seems to be a fairly resonable process, wherein the school itself and the local school district have a reasonable way of responding to and/or addressing the concerns of local parents. Even if the parent is a Karen who keeps asking to talk to a different manager.

You misread the section. Karen may follow the process outlined in section I OR II. In other words, if she isn't happy with the response delivered in seven days in your part 1, she can do 2, 3 and 4... OR she can skip to 5 and jump right to suing. Now, which do you think most Karens (both individuals and those backed by special interest groups) will do, since jumping to the lawsuit brings the possibility of massive publicity and financial reward? What do you think the people who wrote the bill want Karen to do?

It sure seems like the super-clear and not-vague language of this bill that anyone without legal training can understand gets misinterpreted A LOT. That's so weird.
 

ParkPeeker

Well-Known Member
You misread the section. Karen may follow the process outlined in section I OR II. In other words, if she isn't happy with the response delivered in seven days in your part 1, she can do 2, 3 and 4... OR she can skip to 5 and jump right to suing. Now, which do you think most Karens (both individuals and those backed by special interest groups) will do, since jumping to the lawsuit brings the possibility of massive publicity and financial reward? What do you think the people who wrote the bill want Karen to do?

It sure seems like the super-clear and not-vague language of this bill that anyone without legal training can understand gets misinterpreted A LOT. That's so weird.
Thank you, I was seriously wondering if those Roman numerals meant it had to be in order, searching google on how to read sub clauses and stuff lol.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
You misread the section. Karen may follow the process outlined in section I OR II. In other words, if she isn't happy with the response delivered in seven days in your part 1, she can do 2, 3 and 4... OR she can skip to 5 and jump right to suing. Now, which do you think most Karens (both individuals and those backed by special interest groups) will do, since jumping to the lawsuit brings the possibility of massive publicity and financial reward? What do you think the people who wrote the bill want Karen to do?

It sure seems like the super-clear and not-vague language of this bill that anyone without legal training can understand gets misinterpreted A LOT. That's so weird.

Karen can jump to Phase II after the principal has had 7 days to resolve the concern and the school district has had an additional 30 days to resolve the concern. But if Karen does that, she has to pay for her own lawyer.

But if Karen wants the state to pay for the legal bills and lawyer fees, which I assume an angry Karen would want the state to do, she goes through the special magistrate appointed by the Comissioner of Education. Which, since this law was passed by the state of Florida anyway, I would assume Karen would want the state who passed the law to help her discipline the wayward school teaching her 2nd grader about sexual orientation in violation of the law.

Here's the actual language of the bill...

7. Each school district shall adopt procedures for a parent to notify the principal, or his or her designee,
regarding concerns under this paragraph at his or her student's school and the process for resolving those concerns within 7 calendar days after notification by the parent.

a. At a minimum, the procedures must require that within 30 days after notification by the parent that the concern remains unresolved, the school district must either resolve the concern or provide a statement of the reasons for not resolving the concern.
b. If a concern is not resolved by the school district, a parent may:
(I) Request the Commissioner of Education to appoint a special magistrate who is a member of The Florida Bar in good standing and who has at least 5 years' experience in administrative law. The special magistrate shall determine facts relating to the dispute over the school district procedure or practice, consider information provided by the school district, and render a recommended decision for resolution to the State Board of Education within 30 days after receipt of the request by the parent.
The State Board of Education must approve or reject the recommended decision at its next regularly scheduled meeting that is more than 7 calendar days and no more than 30 days after the date the recommended decision is transmitted. The costs of the special magistrate shall be borne by the school district. The State Board of Education shall adopt rules, including forms, necessary to implement this subparagraph.

(II) Bring an action against the school district to obtain a declaratory judgment that the school district procedure practice violates this paragraph and seek injunctive relief. A court may award damages and shall award reasonable attorney fees and court costs to a parent who receives declaratory or injuctive relief.


 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
Karen can jump to Phase II after the principal has had 7 days to resolve the concern and the school district has had an additional 30 days to resolve the concern. But if Karen does that, she has to pay for her own lawyer.

But if Karen wants the state to pay for the legal bills and lawyer fees, which I assume an angry Karen would want the state to do, she goes through the special magistrate appointed by the Comissioner of Education. Which, since this law was passed by the state of Florida anyway, I would assume Karen would want the state who passed the law to help her discipline the wayward school teaching her 2nd grader about sexual orientation in violation of the law.

Here's the actual language of the bill...

7. Each school district shall adopt procedures for a parent to notify the principal, or his or her designee,
regarding concerns under this paragraph at his or her student's school and the process for resolving those concerns within 7 calendar days after notification by the parent.

a. At a minimum, the procedures must require that within 30 days after notification by the parent that the concern remains unresolved, the school district must either resolve the concern or provide a statement of the reasons for not resolving the concern.
b. If a concern is not resolved by the school district, a parent may:
(I) Request the Commissioner of Education to appoint a special magistrate who is a member of The Florida Bar in good standing and who has at least 5 years' experience in administrative law. The special magistrate shall determine facts relating to the dispute over the school district procedure or practice, consider information provided by the school district, and render a recommended decision for resolution to the State Board of Education within 30 days after receipt of the request by the parent.
The State Board of Education must approve or reject the recommended decision at its next regularly scheduled meeting that is more than 7 calendar days and no more than 30 days after the date the recommended decision is transmitted. The costs of the special magistrate shall be borne by the school district. The State Board of Education shall adopt rules, including forms, necessary to implement this subparagraph.

(II) Bring an action against the school district to obtain a declaratory judgment that the school district procedure practice violates this paragraph and seek injunctive relief. A court may award damages and shall award reasonable attorney fees and court costs to a parent who receives declaratory or injuctive relief.


You are simply incorrect. Here is an article from the WSJ which supports the bill - the political analysis is shallow and disingenuous, but it makes very clear that the text of the law states that Karen can choose between I OR II. And if Karen wins, she is reimbursed all costs in addition to receiving an award.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/does-the-dont-say-gay-bill-say-that-11647041916
 

ParkPeeker

Well-Known Member
The text of the bill targets public school instruction (up through third grade) regarding "sexual orientation" and "gender identity". If "sexual orientation" or "gender identity" (which reference gay/straight and transgender/cisgender) is considered "qualities of humans" (as you say) then I suppose it could be said to target "qualities of humans". But that is far from discriminatory as you contend because no distinctions are being made between classes or types of people (straight v. gay, cisgender v. transgender)--it simply takes certain topics off the table for instruction (up through third grade) in a non-discriminatory way.

I do not see your point about changing the text to "genealogical background and race" showing me why the verbiage is problematic. If you can expand your thoughts on that, I would like to consider that point.
This bill wants to prohibit instruction by school staff or third parties on sexual orientation and gender identity before 3rd grade.

You are not seeing discrimination in the text because when you’re reading it, you’re putting everything in a vacuum. Everything regarding sexual orientation and gender identity, you are putting at equal standing, but that is far from our reality.

Starting with a little background, before a kid enters kindergarten, ALL will have ingrained into them, through family, cartoons, games, etc, that heterosexual couples, romance, and marriage is a thing and that it’s acceptable. All will have instilled in them that people who look and sound like a man, dress and like “boy gendered things.” But FEW will have instilled in them that sometimes a girl marries a girl, or that sometimes a person who looks and sounds like a woman dresses like a “boy” or even identifies as one. Also sadly, probably a lot of them will have instilled into them a disapproval of non straight or non cisgender people.

Now let’s get on to the bill. Let’s assume that “instruction” means a teacher formally teaching the kids, or discussing with kids, or answering the kids on the topic of sexual orientation and gender. There’s no way there would ever be any instruction like “today we will learn about how sometimes boys can marry girls” or “kids please stop bullying Nick, boys can like things that mainly boys like.” Instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity can only ever be instruction Centrally about lgbtq+ orientation and identity, because straight/cisgender orientation and identity isn’t a thing to have a lesson on, or discussed or answered, because it is already KNOWN by all kindergarteners. So yes it does read discriminatory.

Now had they changed the wording to say sexual intercourse/sexual parts, it would not have been discriminatory, because that would effectively put straight/cis and lgbtq+ on even standing, since kindergartners will not know a thing about the actual action of sex, for any type of person. In this case it would be acceptable (albeit useless cause what school even teaches young kids pre 4th grade about sexual intercourse). But that isn’t the wording for a reason, cause that isn’t what this bill is about.

Lastly, “Prohibiting instruction on genealogical background and race” is problematic because there is no reason why it should be prohibited, it is NOT inappropriate to children because it’s a quality of being human (as is orientation and gender identity). Is teaching children about Black American history inappropriate for them?

The topic of sexual orientation (gay, straight, or anything in between) is not to be part of the curriculum (thru grade 3). Same goes for transgender words. Not only can you not have a session about “transgenderism”, you cannot have a session on “cisgender” gender either!
As stated similarly above, why would there ever be a session about cisgender people when it is known by every kindergartener.
Many who oppose the bill also worry that some students who do not conform to straight, cisgender norms will not receive the words of affirmation from their teachers and that many will be bullied, feel shame, and/or attempt/commit suicide. But, at such a young age, what would be concerning about themselves to these kids that might make them depressed or seek self-harm is not some concept about “orientation” (they are not sexually or romantically attracted to anybody at young ages) or “gender identity.” What would cause them angst is that they have interests or proclivities that are unusual (not common) in others they deem "like" them. So, a boy would be concerned if he liked making jewelry and didn’t like wrestling. Or a girl would feel angst about liking playing in the mud and not dressing up. (These are just stereotypical examples.) They are not thinking in terms of sexual attraction or genitalia v. self-identity.
A boy being bullied due to “girly characteristics,” for example let’s say he paints his nails, is literally an issue regarding gender identity. The only reason he would be bullied is due to gender identity. He doesn’t fit the roles assigned to the gender of “boy.” If bullying like this happens, a teacher should be able to defend the kid in a simple way that ADDRESSES THE ACTUAL PROBLEM like “listen kids, it’s ok for boys to like things that girls like, it’s ok for boys to paint their nails like girls do.” Which is “instruction” on gender identity.


And, it seems to me, they are also free to communicate the message that not all boys like typically-boy things (and the same for girls) since this truth does not necessarily equate to transgenderism (and does not require the concept of transgenderism to explain). Messages like these help to safeguard the mental and emotional status of all kids. And this bill does nothing to stop this messaging. As the kids get older and their self-knowledge starts to expand into more sexual/gender identities, these topics can then be brought up. This bill allows that to happen from grade 4 and up in an age-appropriate way. I think that is wise.
Transgender can be and has been explained to 5 year olds before, and can be done without getting into anything inappropriate.

It is completely appropriate to tell a kid “ listen this person may sound and look like a boy, but their brain/soul is a girl, that is who they really are” etc. It is not inappropriate at all. And no this isn’t going to turn kids trans.
But if it just showed two characters of the same sex holding hands, I do not know what they would say about that. Holding hands is NOT sexual--especilly when viewed in a cartoon by kindergartners. Young children of the same sex hold hands all the time. I don't see why that would be deemed as "sexual".
Holding hands can still indicate attraction or a crush. Which is a thing young kids have. Doesn’t need to be “sexual.” So let’s rephrase that question, two boy characters shown being attracted to each other, how would that hold up?
There was nothing disingenuous about my use of the term "sexual". Feel free to read "sexual orientation" into that particular context. I was using a bit of shorthand. But clearly, sexual orientation requires the concept of sexual (attraction). It's right there in the name.
Sexual orientation is not just about having sex. It’s about who you are attracted to. A straight boy having a crush on a girl is innocent. A lesbian girl having a crush on a girl is innocent. “Sexual orientation” is not only about sex, it can be explained, discussed, instructed, in a non sexual way.
 

Disney4Lyfe

Well-Known Member
It’s
What does the next section say? Quote it.
Since it's been quoted, I assume I no longer have to. It seems there is no persuading you. There are clearly outlined steps to go through, before you get a state sponsored lawsuit. I suppose you could sue the school district without worrying about the state covering costs, however, you can do that today as well.

If you believe this bill is an attack on the gay community, then I suppose that's your prerogative. I view it as a common sense piece of legislation, which, in an ideal world wouldn't need to exist. However, as parents have had to become more involved in schools during the pandemic, it has opened a lot of eyes to what's going on in schools. Despite the outrage being stoked by the media, most people seem to see this for what it is, and support it.
 

Disney4Lyfe

Well-Known Member
I doubt she wants to tell an internet stranger what town she lives in, particularly someone who just joined, but Pixie can speak for herself, obviously.
A dark money group had multiple people arrested for packing school board meetings in defiance of mask mandates. This is HUGE news. Maybe someone could tell me the state it happened in?
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
A dark money group had multiple people arrested for packing school board meetings in defiance of mask mandates. This is HUGE news. Maybe someone could tell me the state it happened in?
It's not huge news. It happened (and does happen) all over the country and with various issues, but usually those that are the most heated - like those surrounding children or education. And it wasn't "dark money"...there was lobbyist backing. What do you think lobbyists do? They grease wheels and make things happen for their clients.

The arrest was specifically for punching someone in the face.
 

Casper Gutman

Well-Known Member
It’s

Since it's been quoted, I assume I no longer have to. It seems there is no persuading you. There are clearly outlined steps to go through, before you get a state sponsored lawsuit. I suppose you could sue the school district without worrying about the state covering costs, however, you can do that today as well.

If you believe this bill is an attack on the gay community, then I suppose that's your prerogative. I view it as a common sense piece of legislation, which, in an ideal world wouldn't need to exist. However, as parents have had to become more involved in schools during the pandemic, it has opened a lot of eyes to what's going on in schools. Despite the outrage being stoked by the media, most people seem to see this for what it is, and support it.
There is no persuading me because you are making a factually incorrect statement. This isn’t a matter of opinion - intentionally or unintentionally, you are misinterpreting the text. I have no idea where you get the “state-sponsored lawsuit” business - if you win the case, you get legal fees plus, possibly, an award. And even if you don’t, there will be a vast network of special interest groups and donors ready to reimburse the folks flooding the system with lawsuits.

This bill, like similar culture war bills being pushed by GOP state legislators across the country, uses a new enforcement technique that essentially makes citizens into nuisance lawsuit filing vigilantes so that governments escape judicial review, sidestep the constitution, and create widespread fear and uncertainty due to vague definitions and arbitrary enforcement. Traditional American conservatism, as it had existed for decades, at least rhetorically derided frivolous lawsuit, government overreach, and blatant end runs around the constitution. This is something new, or at least newly dominant. It’s part of a pattern - weaponizing an angry and intentionally misinformed public in an effort to aggressively bypass and subvert constitutional safeguards should ring some bells for folks who were following the news last January.

You say that most people see this bill for what it is and support it, which makes it very odd that it’s proponents keep misreprenting its contents, as you and other supporters have consistently done here. In fact, the bill is intentionally vague and duplicitous in order to mask the intentions behind it so as not to alienate swing voters while simultaneously energizing a non-majority voting base. Were this bill honestly intended to address the specific concerns lawmakers claim they are addressing, one or more of the amendments that clarify its purpose and limit its scope to the supposedly relevant issue would have been adopted. They weren’t, because that would have defeated the actual point of the bill.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
There is no persuading me because you are making a factually incorrect statement. This isn’t a matter of opinion - intentionally or unintentionally, you are misinterpreting the text. I have no idea where you get the “state-sponsored lawsuit” business - if you win the case, you get legal fees plus, possibly, an award. And even if you don’t, there will be a vast network of special interest groups and donors ready to reimburse the folks flooding the system with lawsuits.

This bill, like similar culture war bills being pushed by GOP state legislators across the country, uses a new enforcement technique that essentially makes citizens into nuisance lawsuit filing vigilantes so that governments escape judicial review, sidestep the constitution, and create widespread fear and uncertainty due to vague definitions and arbitrary enforcement. Traditional American conservatism, as it had existed for decades, at least rhetorically derided frivolous lawsuit, government overreach, and blatant end runs around the constitution. This is something new, or at least newly dominant. It’s part of a pattern - weaponizing an angry and intentionally misinformed public in an effort to aggressively bypass and subvert constitutional safeguards should ring some bells for folks who were following the news last January.

You say that most people see this bill for what it is and support it, which makes it very odd that it’s proponents keep misreprenting its contents, as you and other supporters have consistently done here. In fact, the bill is intentionally vague and duplicitous in order to mask the intentions behind it so as not to alienate swing voters while simultaneously energizing a non-majority voting base. Were this bill honestly intended to address the specific concerns lawmakers claim they are addressing, one or more of the amendments that clarify its purpose and limit its scope to the supposedly relevant issue would have been adopted. They weren’t, because that would have defeated the actual point of the bill.
That attempt at amending so as to not marginalize anyone, and it's subsequent denial should be setting off alarm bells for everyone.
 

Disney4Lyfe

Well-Known Member
It's not huge news. It happened (and does happen) all over the country and with various issues, but usually those that are the most heated - like those surrounding children or education. And it wasn't "dark money"...there was lobbyist backing. What do you think lobbyists do? They grease wheels and make things happen for their clients.

The arrest was specifically for punching someone in the face.
You keep changing your story. How many people were arrested? If it was just the one person, who funded this bad actor? How many towns did they rent apartments in? How many school board meetings did he attend?
 

Artemicon

Member
Starting with a little background, before a kid enters kindergarten, ALL will have ingrained into them, through family, cartoons, games, etc, that heterosexual couples, romance, and marriage is a thing and that it’s acceptable. All will have instilled in them that people who look and sound like a man, dress and like “boy gendered things.” But FEW will have instilled in them that sometimes a girl marries a girl, or that sometimes a person who looks and sounds like a woman dresses like a “boy” or even identifies as one. Also sadly, probably a lot of them will have instilled into them a disapproval of non straight or non cisgender people.
I'm only responding to this part because it's the basis of your argument.

You can't really blame anyone for a kindergartner for growing up seeing heterosexuality in their family when it takes a heterosexual relationship to make a child naturally... Also, cartoons and games have come a long way and have a lot of LGBTQ+ relationships and characters, just doing a search on google about homosexuality in cartoons showed me a generous number of them. I remember playing several growing up in the 90s that had asexual, gay/lesbian characters, but maybe I'm an off case. Also, you can't watch commercials or online ads without seeing non-hetero messages.

I'm sure there are kids that experience what you say, but this is by far a small minority these days with how much non-cisgender media there is to consume in todays time, and I can only imagine with how hands-off a lot of parents can be, giving their kids a tablet and not supervising them, it only expands their exposure.
 

ImperfectPixie

Well-Known Member
You keep changing your story. How many people were arrested? If it was just the one person, who funded this bad actor? How many towns did they rent apartments in? How many school board meetings did he attend?
I haven't changed my story at all. I even said from the get-go that the person was arrested for getting violent. The person I'm talking about was the "organizer" and had other people helping them set up protests, etc. Unfortunately, it's not illegal to lease an apartment.

I remember at least three towns mentioned in the news story I had read, but it was said that there were more.
 

Disney4Lyfe

Well-Known Member
I haven't changed my story at all. I even said from the get-go that the person was arrested for getting violent. The person I'm talking about was the "organizer" and had other people helping them set up protests, etc. Unfortunately, it's not illegal to lease an apartment.

I remember at least three towns mentioned in the news story I had read, but it was said that there were more.
You said you didn't read a news story. This is getting quite confusing. Can you at least tell me the state?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom