Bloomberg - No Disney Fun for Orlando Workers as Poverty Nears 20%

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Wages are not their problems, and with record attendance I would say management is doing a pretty good job. Although I tend to be in the minority on here in that opinion.

Record profit from the parks reported correct?

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/theme-parks-help-disney-set-record-profit/27325820

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...140804_1_walt-disney-world-mymagic-magicbands

Margins are very important but they do not matter more than the bottom line. A thirty years period is a long time to measure gross margins for accuracy in my business, a very long time. I would guess the same thing is true of the theme park business. If a major business is running themselves in 2014 like they did in the 80s or 90s I would be surprised.

What are the net profit numbers from those time periods?
As you no doubt are well aware, comparing absolute dollars from previous decades or even years is an inaccurate measurement of wealth or profitability.

In 1976, Howard Hughes was considered the wealthiest man in the U.S. with total assets of about $1.5B. Today, that would place him about # 400.

Looking at Parks & Resorts revenue growth, Iger has managed an undistinguished 5.7% in his tenure, compared to Eisner's 10.6%. As we all can see by the price of our tickets, this growth is almost entirely based on aggressive price hikes. Iger clearly is not a "theme park" guy.

Margin is and always has been a good measure of how well an organization is being run, especially when compared within industry. Today's Wall Street is just as obsessed with margin as it was decades ago.

In 2013, Disney's Parks & Resorts had a gross margin of 15.8% while Universal's Theme Parks division was at 31.5%.

Sadly, Disney's Parks & Resorts segment has become a bloated and wasteful bureaucracy, with layers upon layers of management and red tape in the worst traditions of most government programs, sorely lacking creativity and nimbleness. :(
 

Ranch Dressing

Well-Known Member
In the 1970s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 19.5% gross margin.

In the 1980s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 22.8% gross margin.

In the 1990s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 22.5% gross margin.

In the 2000s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 16.8% gross margin.

In the 2010s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 14.7% gross margin.

If they are in business to make money, it sure looks like they are getting worse at it.

Maybe wages aren't WDW's problem.

Maybe bad theme park management is.


Didnt Ron Miller stick to the old Walt and Roy style of management and almost get the whole thing bought out from under his nose? You cant compare gross margins through different decades simply because the value of the dollar from the 70's is different from that of today. Its pointless. As is debating Universals gross margin compared to Disneys. Disney has what 80% of the theme park dollar? Universal has what 5-7 percent?

Give a man a fish he will eat well for the night. Teach a man to fish he will eat well for the rest of his life.

Less excuses and more believing in oneself to accomplish anything.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Didnt Ron Miller stick to the old Walt and Roy style of management and almost get the whole thing bought out from under his nose?
Miller's problem was not in Parks & Resorts. P&R was profitable under Miller.

Miller's problem was in all other aspects of the company.

In 1983, P&R was 79% of company revenue. The Studios and Consumer Products divisions were performing abysmally.

Michael Eisner was brought onboard to fix the other divisions of the company.

With the opening of WDW in 1971, Walt Disney Productions effectively became an amusement park company.

It was not until 1991 that P&R revenue dropped below 50% of company revenue.

It's not that Eisner didn't grow P&R. From 1984 to 1991, Eisner grew Parks & Resorts revenue by 161%. Yep, it was up more than one-and-one-half. For comparison, Iger grew P&R revenue by only 43% during his first 7 years.

However, from 1984 to 1991, Eisner grew the rest of the company by almost 500%!!!

That's what Eisner was hired to fix. :)
 
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BigTxEars

Well-Known Member
As you no doubt are well aware, comparing absolute dollars from previous decades or even years is an inaccurate measurement of wealth or profitability.

In 1976, Howard Hughes was considered the wealthiest man in the U.S. with total assets of about $1.5B. Today, that would place him about # 400.

Looking at Parks & Resorts revenue growth, Iger has managed an undistinguished 5.7% in his tenure, compared to Eisner's 10.6%. As we all can see by the price of our tickets, this growth is almost entirely based on aggressive price hikes. Iger clearly is not a "theme park" guy.

Margin is and always has been a good measure of how well an organization is being run, especially when compared within industry. Today's Wall Street is just as obsessed with margin as it was decades ago.

In 2013, Disney's Parks & Resorts had a gross margin of 15.8% while Universal's Theme Parks division was at 31.5%.

Sadly, Disney's Parks & Resorts segment has become a bloated and wasteful bureaucracy, with layers upon layers of management and red tape in the worst traditions of most government programs, sorely lacking creativity and nimbleness. :(

So how should they measure finical success or failure today if not net profit? GP% is indeed used as a measure but GP% has never been more important than NP% in any business I have been involved in.

From what I have read there are more turns at the gate than ever before, the increase in revenue is not driven by price increase alone but by more bodies at the parks as well.
 

seascape

Well-Known Member
In the 1970s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 19.5% gross margin.

In the 1980s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 22.8% gross margin.

In the 1990s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 22.5% gross margin.

In the 2000s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 16.8% gross margin.

In the 2010s, Disney's theme park division averaged a 14.7% gross margin.

If they are in business to make money, it sure looks like they are getting worse at it.

Maybe wages aren't WDW's problem.

Maybe bad theme park management is.
I agree with most of your posts but I think you miss a big issue here comparing margins over time. Disney has added lots of hotel rooms over the years. Margins for hotels are much lower than for just theme parks. Universal has just started to add hotels, although in partnership. You cannot expect to make the margins Disney used to earn and neither will Universal if they use the same method of account for hotel revenue and expenses as Disney does. Also concerning reinvestment percentages in the parks it should be based on park revenue alone. Hotels and DVCs should be broken out.

Now it should be interesting to see the Universal numbers next week and Disney's number next month. I am shocked how Disney has in reased park hours for the rest of the year indicating in reased attendance but Universal has not.
 

wm49rs

A naughty bit o' crumpet
Premium Member
I agree with most of your posts but I think you miss a big issue here comparing margins over time. Disney has added lots of hotel rooms over the years. Margins for hotels are much lower than for just theme parks. Universal has just started to add hotels, although in partnership. You cannot expect to make the margins Disney used to earn and neither will Universal if they use the same method of account for hotel revenue and expenses as Disney does. Also concerning reinvestment percentages in the parks it should be based on park revenue alone. Hotels and DVCs should be broken out.

Now it should be interesting to see the Universal numbers next week and Disney's number next month. I am shocked how Disney has in reased park hours for the rest of the year indicating in reased attendance but Universal has not.
Well Pete, if you had looked at their hours, you would see that Uni is opening at 7:00AM for park guests, and staying open until 5:00. But HHN is running until 2:00AM on its nights. And have had some of their busiest days this year, with the possible exception of Spring Break....
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
So how should they measure finical success or failure today if not net profit? GP% is indeed used as a measure but GP% has never been more important than NP% in any business I have been involved in.

From what I have read there are more turns at the gate than ever before, the increase in revenue is not driven by price increase alone but by more bodies at the parks as well.
For Disney, the primary difference between net profit and gross profit is income tax. A company such as Disney does not report net profit on a division-by-division basis. Net profit is reported for the company as a whole. However, Disney does report operating income on a per division basis. Since this thread is titled "Bloomberg - No Disney Fun for Orlando Workers as Poverty Nears 20%", it is necessary to examine how well Disney's theme park business is being run to understand what effect it has on wages in Orlando.

The Walt Disney Company is going to have a record year largely because of Frozen. Frozen is a tremendous hit but its success in FY2013 does not necessarily translate into higher pay for Cast Members working in Orlando. Again, we need to focus on Parks & Resorts to understand pay in Orlando.

It used to be that large conglomerates viewed customers and employees as allies. Corporations such as Disney considered them as valuable assets to be nurtured, friends to be partnered with.

That attitude changed this century. Companies now try to squeeze their customers and employees for every last cent.

It would be one thing if these companies took these pennies and invested them in growth initiatives, producing a robust economy that benefited not only these same mega corporations but also ‘the little guy’.

Instead, they’ve taken that money and buried it back in stock buybacks, arguably the worst long-term use of profits.

Since Bob Iger took charge in 2005, net income has totaled $42.4B. Over that same period, stock repurchases have totaled $38.3B. :jawdrop:

Iger is taking company profits and using it to pump up the stock price.

Of course Iger and CEOs like him collect more than half their compensation in stock and stock options, while fund managers who are supposed to be looking out for the best interests of those who have invested play along because their jobs are dependent on today’s stock price.

The end result? Companies with record profits and a stock market bubble, even as Median Household Income languishes, the exact situation we have today.

The reality is that companies like Disney and the stock market have set themselves up for yet another crash, a crash that could have been avoided if executives and fund managers were less focused on today’s stock price and more focused on tomorrow’s growth.

Now imagine $5B of that stock repurchase money being used to build a 5th theme park at WDW. New construction resulting in upward pressure on pay. New jobs and new revenue for the company for decades to come, encouraging further gains in family income. Long-term, customers, employees, and the company all benefit from a 5th gate.

Disney’s Parks & Resorts revenue has grown an average of only 5.7% under Iger, a mediocre number almost wholly attributable to higher theme park ticket, food, beverage, and merchandise prices. If you don’t believe me, please read the company’s earnings reports. It’s what they report quarter-after-quarter, year-after-year.

It's an unusual quarter when they attribute revenue growth primarily due to increased attendance. Since Iger's first year, theme park attendance has grown only an average of 2% annually, not a particularly exciting number.

My point? Bad management making shortsighted decisions not only results in disappointing long-term company growth and stock volatility for shareholders but, ultimately, poor pay for employees.

So, when someone attempts to defend a company like Disney because they are “in business to make money”, I point back to historical data to show that they are not doing it particularly well right now in Disney's Parks & Resorts segment, directly affecting the pay of those Cast Members working in Orlando.
 
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seascape

Well-Known Member
Well Pete, if you had looked at their hours, you would see that Uni is opening at 7:00AM for park guests, and staying open until 5:00. But HHN is running until 2:00AM on its nights. And have had some of their busiest days this year, with the possible exception of Spring Break....
Great Adventure has had huge crowds for Fright Fest this year. So what. Halloween does not make or break a park. Regular attendance is what matters the most and based on what Disney is showing for the rest of the year, they are doing great. Hotels are also up over last year. Yes they do offer discounts but every hotel does now. They have origin prices that are very high and discount them. That is how the business is done now. Also hotel occupancy should nevery be over 90% because if if is you do not have enough rooms.

By the way based on the news story yesterday about the new hotels being built in the area that either Disney nor Universal will be hurting over the next 10 years. The growth in tourism will require both companies to expand and grow. Additionally Disney will need a 5th gate or major expansion in their existing 4 parks that will require enlarging their current foot prints.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
I agree with most of your posts but I think you miss a big issue here comparing margins over time. Disney has added lots of hotel rooms over the years. Margins for hotels are much lower than for just theme parks. Universal has just started to add hotels, although in partnership. You cannot expect to make the margins Disney used to earn and neither will Universal if they use the same method of account for hotel revenue and expenses as Disney does. Also concerning reinvestment percentages in the parks it should be based on park revenue alone. Hotels and DVCs should be broken out.

Now it should be interesting to see the Universal numbers next week and Disney's number next month. I am shocked how Disney has in reased park hours for the rest of the year indicating in reased attendance but Universal has not.
I'm curious, what makes you think WDW's hotel margins are worse than the theme parks?

Disney's margins started to improve exactly at the time when hotel expansion was at its most rampant.

WDW charges over $100/night for a Motel 6 level quality of room.

WDW charges $600/night for a room that costs $300/night at Universal. Universal's hotels offer better benefits than WDW's hotels. (Nothing beats Express Pass. :))

WDW's Deluxe Resorts charge significantly more than the Swan & Dolphin, which offer similar benefits.

WDW's problem is that their prices have reached such astronomical levels that occupancy is down. As recently as 2008, WDW hotel occupancy was at 90%. Last year, there were 2 million empty room-nights at WDW.
 
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ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
I agree with most of your posts but I think you miss a big issue here comparing margins over time. Disney has added lots of hotel rooms over the years. Margins for hotels are much lower than for just theme parks. Universal has just started to add hotels, although in partnership. You cannot expect to make the margins Disney used to earn and neither will Universal if they use the same method of account for hotel revenue and expenses as Disney does. Also concerning reinvestment percentages in the parks it should be based on park revenue alone. Hotels and DVCs should be broken out.

Now it should be interesting to see the Universal numbers next week and Disney's number next month. I am shocked how Disney has in reased park hours for the rest of the year indicating in reased attendance but Universal has not.

The increased park hours are an attempt to get more people in the parks
 

CDavid

Well-Known Member
Wages are not their problems, and with record attendance I would say management is doing a pretty good job.

Not all Walt Disney World parks are having record attendance.

If they lack the skills to earn more than minimum wage, then anything more IS a handout...such as the calls for a "living wage" or "$15 dollars an hour".

Pretty much anyone who can stand up and is still breathing is worth more than minimum wage then, because minimum wage is largely an arbitrary number, derived as much from political 'horse-trading' as fair and reasonable wage calculations. I honestly can't think of any job which isn't worth much more than the current minimum wage - you wouldn't need to demonstrate more than very basic job skills to show greater worth - and certainly the workers themselves are 'worth' much more.
 
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Gomer

Well-Known Member
In our country today, everything ends up being political, eventually- even ebola. This is sad. Odds are this thread gets locked by the end of the day.

Not even just politics. It’s sad that no one knows how to debate anything anymore. Politics is just a symptom of idealistic stubbornness on all issues. People seem to have lost the ability to acknowledge other viewpoints and have a back and forth discussion to reach a compromise on ideas. Instead, people just plant their flags, put their fingers in their ears, and don’t budge at all. Look at any Uni vs. WDW or Avatarland thread on this board and you see the same systemic problem that runs through any political debate. It’s as if the fear of admitting any wavering in your own stance has become so overwhelming that people would rather live in perpetual antagonistic stalemate than ever admit other’s opinions may have value.
 

seascape

Well-Known Member
I'm curious, what makes you think WDW's hotel margins are worse than the theme parks?

Disney's margins started to improve exactly at the time when hotel expansion was at its most rampant.

WDW charges over $100/night for a Motel 6 level quality of room.

WDW charges $600/night for a room that costs $300/night at Universal. Universal's hotels offer better benefits than WDW's hotels. (Nothing beats Express Pass. :))

WDW's Deluxe Resorts charge significantly more than the Swan & Dolphin, which offer similar benefits.

WDW's problem is that their prices have reached such astronomical levels that occupancy is down. As recently as 2008, WDW hotel occupancy was at 90%. Last year, there were 2 million empty room-nights at WDW.
The profit margins on DVC's are clearly smaller but the return on investment are higher because the full cost of construction is received up front. As for the short term profits on the hotels have gone down because the opened up AoA in 2012 with 1984 rooms or 724,160 room nights a year. Also all the DVC's have taken people from hotel rooms and put them in DVC's. I think you would agree that for the first 20 years of WDW there was little growth in the hotel rooms while doing the since 1990 their has been massive growth. Do you understand the hotel business? A hotel that does not have some empty rooms does not maximze profits. Even the Charles Hotel in Cambridge has empty rooms almost every night. If they didn't they would not be as profitable.

Now if there is a mistake Disney may have made, which I don't think it is, its to provide the same benefits to all properties regardless of price. Disney has encouraged people to move from the deluxe rooms to either moderate or value. Now I dont agree with those designations because they are all much more expensive that off property but I think people should be treated the same regardless of where they stay on property. Anyway profits are something that can be played with. Revenue and attendance numbers can't be. Disney World is still growing and as a stockholder I am very happy. Has Iger spent too much on stock repurchases and not investing in the parks as we would like, that is a debatable point. I am more likely to agree with you if I know specifics of what they would do with the money.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
The profit margins on DVC's are clearly smaller but the return on investment are higher because the full cost of construction is received up front. As for the short term profits on the hotels have gone down because the opened up AoA in 2012 with 1984 rooms or 724,160 room nights a year. Also all the DVC's have taken people from hotel rooms and put them in DVC's. I think you would agree that for the first 20 years of WDW there was little growth in the hotel rooms while doing the since 1990 their has been massive growth. Do you understand the hotel business? A hotel that does not have some empty rooms does not maximze profits. Even the Charles Hotel in Cambridge has empty rooms almost every night. If they didn't they would not be as profitable.
Let’s use DVC to examine Disney’s hotel profitability.

DVC essentially is a timeshare and its profits are realized primarily through the sale of DVC points. At today’s price of $130/point at (for example) Disney’s Boardwalk Villas (BWV), that’s great for Disney.

After the initial sale, Disney charges an annual Maintenance Fee (MF). That MF is supposed to cover Disney’s cost.

The reality is that Disney charges exorbitant management and housecleaning fees, meaning Disney turns a modest profit even on that annual MF.

Next week, a Standard View Studio at BWV costs the equivalent of $468 for the week, about $67/night.

For that same week, an entry-level Standard Room at Disney’s Boardwalk Inn costs $3204 for the week, about $458/night.

Even a small Motel 6 level room at one of Disney's All Star Resorts averages about $117/night next week.

Now we have to consider total inventory.

Despite the expansion in recent years, DVC still makes up only 11% of total room inventory at WDW. 21% is at Deluxe Resorts, 28% is at Moderate Resorts, and 39% is at Value Resorts. Overwhelmingly, hotel margins are driven by what happens at WDW’s cash hotels.

Let's also recall that DVC points sold have incredible markups that feed P&R's bottom line. One item (besides higher prices ;)) Iger has mentioned recently as helping P&R's numbers this year is the sale of DVC points at the Villas at the Grand Floridian (VGF).

Since DVC fees are supposed to cover cost and Disney charges the public several times that price for equivalent cash rooms, and Iger has cited VGF sales as an area of strength, Disney’s hotel & timeshare margins are tremendous.

Disney's problem is that its hotel prices along with continued DVC sales have hurt its Deluxe Resorts, so much so that Disney is likely to continue to convert existing Deluxe Resort rooms into DVC.

Your turn. :)
 
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seascape

Well-Known Member
Let’s use DVC to examine Disney’s hotel profitability.

DVC essentially is a timeshare and its profits are realized primarily through the sale of DVC points. At today’s price of $130/point at (for example) Disney’s Boardwalk Villas (BWV), that’s great for Disney.

After the initial sale, Disney charges an annual Maintenance Fee (MF). That MF is supposed to cover Disney’s cost.

The reality is that Disney charges exorbitant management and housecleaning fees, meaning Disney turns a modest profit even on that annual MF.

Next week, a Standard View Studio at BWV costs the equivalent of $468 for the week, about $67/night.

For that same week, an entry-level Standard Room at Disney’s Boardwalk Inn costs $3204 for the week, about $458/night.

Even a small Motel 6 level room at one of Disney's All Star Resorts averages about $117/night next week.

Now we have to consider total inventory.

Despite the expansion in recent years, DVC still makes up only 11% of total room inventory at WDW. 21% is at Deluxe Resorts, 28% is at Moderate Resorts, and 39% is at Value Resorts. Overwhelmingly, hotel margins are driven by what happens at WDW’s cash hotels.

Let's also recall that DVC points sold have incredible markups that feed P&R's bottom line. One item (besides higher prices ;)) Iger has mentioned recently as helping P&R's numbers this year is the sale of DVC points at the Villas at the Grand Floridian (VGF).

Since DVC fees are supposed to cover cost and Disney charges the public several times that price for equivalent cash rooms, and Iger has cited VGF sales as an area of strength, Disney’s hotel & timeshare margins are tremendous.

Disney's problem is that its hotel prices along with continued DVC sales have hurt its Deluxe Resorts, so much so that Disney is likely to continue to convert existing Deluxe Resort rooms into DVC.

Your turn. :)
I don't think we disagee as much as you do. DVC upfront sales produce a great profit. However, each addtional DVC sale will still produce a smaller overall margin because it represents a smaller portion of overall DVC's. We also agree Disney makes a good profit on the maintenance fees because as you state the high management fees. This is why timeshares are a good deal for the developer, especially in Disney's case since they only sell right to use units and will resell them again. So if all Deluxe restorts were sold as DVC's Disney would make a fortune up front but the yearly fees would produce a lower margin profit but a higher rate of return. Which is better? That can be debated.

Putting this another way and in terms more here can understand, look at ESPN. They are paying millions more each year in fees but are also making more. Lets say they pay a million dollars for something this year and receive 2 million in revenue they make 1 million or a 50% margin. Next year they pay 2 million but receive 3.5 million. Their margin is now only 42.8% but total profits are 1.5 million. Which would you rather have? Margins are only part of the total story. Again I would like the numbers broken down for all three, parks, hotels, and DVC's.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
I don't think we disagee as much as you do. DVC upfront sales produce a great profit. However, each addtional DVC sale will still produce a smaller overall margin because it represents a smaller portion of overall DVC's. We also agree Disney makes a good profit on the maintenance fees because as you state the high management fees. This is why timeshares are a good deal for the developer, especially in Disney's case since they only sell right to use units and will resell them again. So if all Deluxe restorts were sold as DVC's Disney would make a fortune up front but the yearly fees would produce a lower margin profit but a higher rate of return. Which is better? That can be debated.
Ah, but you started this discussion by stating:

"Margins for hotels are much lower than for just theme parks."​

With what we discussed (which we seem to agree upon), do you still believe this?

I think we both agree that Disney has made decisions that have hurt Parks & Resorts margins in the last 10-15 years, and has hurt them at the hotels in particular. That's the point I've been making all along: Disney's P&R management has and continues to make shortsighted decisions that affect long-term profitability.

Just to keep this at least tangentially related to this thread, these types of poor decisions are indicative of a management organization that costs shareholders, customers, and employees.

Where you and I might disagree is where margins are better today: at the hotels & timeshares or at the theme parks. The costs of running a theme park far outpaces the cost of running a hotel.

Back to you. :)
 

seascape

Well-Known Member
Ah, but you started this discussion by stating:

"Margins for hotels are much lower than for just theme parks."​

With what we discussed (which we seem to agree upon), do you still believe this?

I think we both agree that Disney has made decisions that have hurt Parks & Resorts margins in the last 10-15 years, and has hurt them at the hotels in particular. That's the point I've been making all along: Disney's P&R management has and continues to make shortsighted decisions that affect long-term profitability.

Just to keep this at least tangentially related to this thread, these types of poor decisions are indicative of a management organization that costs shareholders, customers, and employees.

Where you and I might disagree is where margins are better today: at the hotels & timeshares or at the theme parks. The costs of running a theme park far outpaces the cost of running a hotel.

Back to you. :)
Yes, I think the margins are lower at the hotels than the theme parks. Especially when compared to the past. When WDW opened there were only Deluxe hotels. Disney has in fact made decisions which encourage the use of moderate hotels and value hotels. The bus service they provide all the resorts is the same and the quality or moderare resorts are about the same as the Deluxes.

As for costs, I know we agree the cost of running a theme park are higher than a hotel. However, the theme park has many more people in it spending money. Additionally the costs of the theme park are mostly fixed. I know running extra hours costs more and adding a second show to Fantasmic and or a second night time parade. However, given the number of people and the food and drinks they buy it more than pays for it. Margins would go up if they eliminated free dining but the profits would go down. Disney makes vacations for everyone and that means lower margins from the middle class customers and using upsales to make higher margins from the upper middle class customers. I went to Mickeys Halloween Party in September and will go to the Christmas Party. I have a season pass and will spend a total of 15 days in the parks this year and 12 nights at the Boardwalk DVC. Is Disney making money on me? You bet. Do they make a lot? Sure, my wife loves to shop. Plus on my anniversay we were lucky and got fast passes for Anna and Elsa so of course we had to by the photo CD. Do I care that they make money? No. Do I wish they made more so their stock price would be even higher? yes.

If it were up to me, I would have built more than they did with the expectation of higher profits in the future. I wish they would spend over $1 billion on DHS, and second billion on Epcot and a third billion on AK, on top of Pandora. Then they should build a 5th gate for $3 billion and some more hotel rooms and DVC's on property to go along with the Flamingo Crossing hotels which are being built. Over all I think a $10 billion dollar plan spent over 7 years would make WDW what we all want it to be and it is affordable. Will Iger do it? I think we will get DHS, Epcot and some of the AK I want and the Flamingo Crossing but may not get the 5th gate by 2021. It will be a missed opportunity because if they did come out with a plan like I want it would be hard for Universal or anyone else to match. A 5th gate should be based on Disney Seas and over by Flamingo Crossing propery or a Gate to the west of MK and walkable between the two parks. Or go completely crazy and build both. Disney can easily afford to spend $2 billion a year more than they currently do at WDW for new things but I don't think they will.
 

ParentsOf4

Well-Known Member
Yes, I think the margins are lower at the hotels than the theme parks. Especially when compared to the past. When WDW opened there were only Deluxe hotels. Disney has in fact made decisions which encourage the use of moderate hotels and value hotels. The bus service they provide all the resorts is the same and the quality or moderate resorts are about the same as the Deluxes.
Just remember that for about the first 15 years of WDW, Disney's hotels at the time (today reclassified as "Deluxe") charged today's equivalent of around $150 to $200/night.

At today's equivalent of $200/night, it was not a cheap room and many families had to stretch to afford that but service was outstanding back then. Year after year, Disney consistently reported occupancy rates of 95%. People knew they were getting a good value.

Heck, it wasn't that long ago (mid-2000s) that I remember getting a room in the Garden Wing of the Contemporary in the spring for about $230/night, no discount.

Today, that same room lists for $436/night.

So, when you write, "Especially when compared to the past", I'm still not with you. :)
 

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