Yep. Sea foam is only second to pixie dust in my addictions. Well, that and I free base churros.
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BLACKFISH
- Thread starter JPatton
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futurecastmembr
Active Member
Yep. Sea foam is only second to pixie dust in my addictions. Well, that and I free base churros.
Good for you, in that case there's really no need to enter in to a conversation if you're not going to engage the actual points people are making. You can enjoy Sea World and hope for a more humane environment for the animals you know, its not one or the other.
No, I would be happy to engage, it's just that I don't see the need to engage discussion with those who find problems when no problem exists.
futurecastmembr
Active Member
Its not that no problem exists its just that you don't care.
And you know that how?
futurecastmembr
Active Member
Because giving an animal food only if does a trick, keeping it locked up in a confined space, separating it from its mother etc. are not humane. Its not that extreme to simply ask for a more humane environment for the animals. You're not saying anything worthwhile, you're just trying to argue for the sake of arguing.
And your assumption that I don't care about animals because I don't agree with you is a mis calculation on your part. Do I think we should be cruel to animals, no. But I dont believe Sea World is being inhumane to their animals.
1. The animals in captivity age give all they require in terms of food regardless if they perform or not. The food they are given for performing tend to be a preferred food or treat. Bottom line, the orcas are never sent to bed without dinner.
2. A fairly valid point, but how do you define confined space? Looking at the range they exist is the wild is a false equivalency as most species "range" is dependent on their food sources. They go where the food is. When a constant food source is found, most species range will reduce drastically.
3. If suckling pups were being stripped from their mothers you would have a point, but that is not what is happening. It looks like most are separated at around 3-4 years of age if at all. To know if that even begins to be bad we would have to compare it to what happens in the wild. Wheat is the average age of an orca when it leaves the pod?
I'm curious; such a change would obviously mean a quite extensive capital outlay. Is Seaworld just supposed to pay these monies out due to one documentary, or because some bands decided to stop playing a BBQ due to some change.org petitions? And what would happen to the conservation efforts by Seaworld should they need to spend on these new "environments?" The money, after all, has to come from somewhere....
Preston Chatsworth
Member
Humane environment? We are dealing with an "animal" here, not a human, and this "fish" knows no better as long as they are captive bred. There are 45 Orcas in captivity worldwide, 32 of which are captive-born so the program is undoubtedly a success.
unkadug
Follower of "Saget"The Cult
That is absolutely incorrect.
Please do your research before posting such flagrant lies.
The orcas are fed regularly whether they perform certain actions or not.
“We do not separate killer whale moms and calves. SeaWorld recognizes the important bond between mother and calf. On the rare occasion that a mother killer whale cannot care for the calf herself, we have successfully hand raised and reintroduced the calf. Whales are only moved to maintain a healthy social structure.”
The above statement is a lie that an industry would like you to believe is true.
It is a lie.
Finding itself in a PR crisis, SeaWorld has spent advertising dollars defending itself---with a lie.
That's one of the many reasons why I believe SeaWorld's captive orca program cannot be sustained indefinitely.
Orcas in captivity just does not work.
It is in particularly poor taste for a company in the business of family entertainment to lie to children and families.
________________________________________________________________________________________
"In the wild a killer whale mother might have her first calf at between the age of 12 and 15 and she will have a calf every 5 years after that on average. SeaWorld and the other facilities in the industry claim that they only separate mothers and calves when it’s for the good of the individual animals—when it benefits them."
"There’s absolutely no benefit to separating a mother and her calf before the calf is ready. So in captivity they are separating them at 18 months---at 2 years. That is the same as taking a toddler away from his or her mother. The reason they separate mothers from their calves is because at that age---just like the terrible two’s in human beings--- they become disruptive to the show. Whenever they do that they are breaking a bond that in nature would last for life."
Dr. Naomi Rose
Blackfish DVD
Special Features
The above statement is a lie that an industry would like you to believe is true.
It is a lie.
Finding itself in a PR crisis, SeaWorld has spent advertising dollars defending itself---with a lie.
That's one of the many reasons why I believe SeaWorld's captive orca program cannot be sustained indefinitely.
Orcas in captivity just does not work.
It is in particularly poor taste for a company in the business of family entertainment to lie to children and families.
________________________________________________________________________________________
"In the wild a killer whale mother might have her first calf at between the age of 12 and 15 and she will have a calf every 5 years after that on average. SeaWorld and the other facilities in the industry claim that they only separate mothers and calves when it’s for the good of the individual animals—when it benefits them."
"There’s absolutely no benefit to separating a mother and her calf before the calf is ready. So in captivity they are separating them at 18 months---at 2 years. That is the same as taking a toddler away from his or her mother. The reason they separate mothers from their calves is because at that age---just like the terrible two’s in human beings--- they become disruptive to the show. Whenever they do that they are breaking a bond that in nature would last for life."
Dr. Naomi Rose
Blackfish DVD
Special Features
Voxel
President of Progress City
“We do not separate killer whale moms and calves. SeaWorld recognizes the important bond between mother and calf. On the rare occasion that a mother killer whale cannot care for the calf herself, we have successfully hand raised and reintroduced the calf. Whales are only moved to maintain a healthy social structure.”
It is statements like the one above that fan the flames of protest.
Do the SeaWorld bosses think it is still 1973 and a gullible public is going to swallow every word they say?
The way to “maintain a healthy social structure” for orcas---animals who live in matriarchal pods---is never to separate a mother from her calf.
SeaWorld routinely separates orca mothers from their calves. There’s a paper trail behind the transfers.
Evidently their position is it’s less risky to tell a lie than it is to tell the truth.
From the book Death At SeaWorld by David Kirby:
“In late 1984, a pregnant Katina was flown to her new home in Orlando. There, on September 26, 1985, she gave birth to Winston’s daughter, Kalina, the world’s first orca successfully bred in captivity. She became a media sensation and was dubbed Baby Shamu. Millions flocked to Orlando to see the highly promoted, first–of-its-kind newborn orca behind glass.
“The world fell in love with Kalina. SeaWorld jumped at the opportunity her arrival presented by launching a Baby Shamu Celebration tour. In February of 1990, at the age of four and a half, the calf was sent to SeaWorld in Ohio, where for eight months she performed in a show with whales she barely knew, followed by a seven-month stint at SeaWorld San Diego. In May 1991, she was flown to SeaWorld San Antonio.”
SeaWorld squeezed every nickel and dime they could out of that baby orca, shipping her all over the country during a promotional tour, separate from her mother.
The following historical data on orca mother/calf separations at SeaWorld comes from The Orca Project Corp:
CAPTIVE BORN (still alive):
Kayla - separated from mother at 2 years, 5 months
Keet - separated from mother at 1 year, 8 months
Takara - separated from mother at 12 years,8 months
Trua - separated from mother at 3 years, 2 months
Tuar - separated from mother at 4 years, 10 months
Unna – separated from mother at 6 years
CAPTIVE BORN (deceased):
Halyn - separated from mother immediately due to mother’srejection
Kalina - separated from mother at 4 years, 4 mos; reunited at 9 years
Katerina - separated from mother at 2 years, 5 months
Splash - separated from mother at 2 years, 6 months
Sumar - separated from mother at 10 months
Taku - separated from mother at 13 years, 2 months; died 11 months later
WILD BORN, SEPARATED AT TIME OF CAPTURE (still alive):
Corky 2 - separated at 3 years
(Corky had 2 miscarriages, 1 stillborn birth, and 4 live calves that died 11 to 48 days after their birth)
Kasatka - separated at 1 - 2 years
(became the first whale to be artificially inseminated in 2000, using Tilikum’s semen)
Katina - separated at 2 - 3 years
(1st “successful” mother in captivity with the birth of her calf Kalina)
Tilikum - separated at about 2 years
Ulises or Ulysses - separated at 2 - 3 years
STILLBORNS, MISCARRIAGES, AND DEATHS DURING BIRTH/PREGNANCY:
Known stillborn orca births in captivity: 14
Known orca miscarriages in captivity: 7
Known deaths of mother and calf during birth or pregnancy: 6
156 Orcas have died in captivity~ 42 Orcas remain in captivity
Orca families across the world have been torn apart to entertain us.
Fact issues that You should note before then. Stillborn and Orcas dying with in the first 6/7 months are common in the wild. An Orca only has 50%/60% chance of living bast the age of 7 months which is a very high mortality rate.
Miscarriages is a hard statistic to use in your debate because we do not know the miscarriage rate of wild orcas so we don't know if the numbers in captivity are low,normal, or high.
Calves are not separated from their mothers until they finished weaning which is about 2 years after birth, at this point it would be typical for the calf to speed significantly less time with their mother and more time with their pod.
*I state this not to start an argument but to show more facts about it then just stating statistics.
(As I have previously stated I wish their was a way to do both, perhaps create the world largest exhibit, they have that massive lake next to the SeaWorld exhibit. I remember playing zoo tycoon and I always make the killer whale tank as deep and as large as possible ( I think I made it half the size of the park)).
This issue now concerning the Orca's in captivity is that there is a slim chance they could merge with another pod in the wild and they do not know migratory patterns. How do you release them with this issue over the horizon.
unkadug
Follower of "Saget"The Cult
When you can provide some sources that do NOT come from Blackfish then you may have a point, but to continue to use Blackfish as a source to prove Blackfish's thesis is ludicrous.
Read much Saul Alinsky?
@JPatton You still have yet to comment on 2 issues that I posed to you. I have quoted both of them below.
You are starting to make me think that your factual case is week and you are simply relying on an appeal to emotion as your main argument.
You are starting to make me think that your factual case is week and you are simply relying on an appeal to emotion as your main argument.
Megalodumb
Well-Known Member
There is one simple answer to this conundrum.
Churros. Yes, churros are Orcas natural post seal desert option. Sea World has failed to provide for this natural food choice.
Churros. Yes, churros are Orcas natural post seal desert option. Sea World has failed to provide for this natural food choice.
OFTeric
Well-Known Member
To support SeaWorld's mission...
"You protect what you love, you love what you understand, and you understand what you are taught"
SeaWorld helps us learn to love marine life, so that we will protect it.
Also @JPatton I think that @Master Yoda raised some very valid points.
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