Birnbaum 2009: Space Mountain closed in 2009

[TP2000]

It is odd to think that after being to WDW over 30 times ,which may not seem like much to some folks but I am 33 yrs old and have lived in Illinois all my life, that I have never been to Disneyland. I can only go by the WDW Space Mountain and I am sure the others are great. I have ridden some of the biggest and best Coasters and am always looking for the next big thrill ride but when it comes to Disney I guess I am nostalgic.

Your sentiment is completely understandable.

And yet, isn't it interesting that the oldest Disney park, Disneyland USA, has gone down a vastly different route when it comes to the stewardship of its magic kingdom style park? Disneyland is the only park Walt created and walked in for over a decade, and it still has his handprint and his vision oozing from everywhere. And yet, it also routinely updates and changes and re-imagines its attractions from E Ticket thrill rides to A Ticket walk-throughs.

Many of the original Walt things get redone, like the 1962 Swiss Family Treehouse into 1999 Tarzan's Treehouse, the 1956 Tom Sawyer Island into 2007 Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island, the 1959 Submarine Voyage into 2007 Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage, the 1966 Small World into the upcoming 2008 Disney character and Americana remake, the recent show updates to the original Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Autopia, Peter Pan, Alice In Wonderland, etc.

Disneyland's Space Mountain opened after WDW's, and has already had two major refurbishments and dramatic technology makeovers.

My point? The list of hits from Imagineering when it comes to remaking attractions is much longer than their list of misses. And some argue that WDI has learned their lesson in the late 1990's and have recently only had hits.

WDW's Space Mountain needs love and a very long vacation. I think we should just trust that WDI will get it right. Or, as right as the budget from WDW management will allow them to. :lol:

 

[DisneyExplorer]

These refurbishments are great and all, and I'm not doubting that Space Mountain needs an extensive overhaul, but it just seems sad to see some of these great new blue-sky projects that could add some new life shelved to restore a classic that should not have to be significantly restored if it was well-maintained like it should have been. WDW could have spared themselves much grief and energy if they had kept up with the coaster over these past 35 years rather than letting it rot and decay.

 

[JWG]

Your sentiment is completely understandable.

And yet, isn't it interesting that the oldest Disney park, Disneyland USA, has gone down a vastly different route when it comes to the stewardship of its magic kingdom style park? Disneyland is the only park Walt created and walked in for over a decade, and it still has his handprint and his vision oozing from everywhere. And yet, it also routinely updates and changes and re-imagines its attractions from E Ticket thrill rides to A Ticket walk-throughs.

Many of the original Walt things get redone, like the 1962 Swiss Family Treehouse into 1999 Tarzan's Treehouse, the 1956 Tom Sawyer Island into 2007 Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island, the 1959 Submarine Voyage into 2007 Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage, the 1966 Small World into the upcoming 2008 Disney character and Americana remake, the recent show updates to the original Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion, Pirates, Autopia, Peter Pan, Alice In Wonderland, etc.

Disneyland's Space Mountain opened after WDW's, and has already had two major refurbishments and dramatic technology makeovers.

My point? The list of hits from Imagineering when it comes to remaking attractions is much longer than their list of misses. And some argue that WDI has learned their lesson in the late 1990's and have recently only had hits.

WDW's Space Mountain needs love and a very long vacation. I think we should just trust that WDI will get it right. Or, as right as the budget from WDW management will allow them to. :lol:

The work at DL is likely needed to maintain frequent guest attendance. Since DL is more passholder focused and WDW more vacation / repeat guest over time focused. They need to please annual passholders more in CA than in FL.

I am apparently out of touch, I didn't know they had redone DL Space since 1996. I thought it was great then (rode it in December of '96), can only imagine how great it is now.

 

[TP2000]

The work at DL is likely needed to maintain frequent guest attendance. Since DL is more passholder focused and WDW more vacation / repeat guest over time focused. They need to please annual passholders more in CA than in FL.

I am apparently out of touch, I didn't know they had redone DL Space since 1996. I thought it was great then (rode it in December of '96), can only imagine how great it is now.

Disneyland's Space Mountain closed in April, 2003 and reopened in July, 2005 as part of the 50th anniversary. The closure was just over two years long. It was entirely gutted, the foundation was dug an additional 15 feet deeper into the sandy Anaheim soil, and an entirely new track was installed. The queue, station, lift hills, dome and re-entry tunnel were all redone with all new 21st century effects. A new fleet of rockets were built with onboard audio designed in from the start, unlike the 1996 rehab that retrofitted audio into the original vehicles and simply remodeled the existing queue and station area.

As for the old argument that Locals = Rehabs and Tourists = Stagnation, I think it's time to put that popular outlook to rest. If the WDW management really believes that, the state of the Magic Kingdom and increasingly Epcot and DHS respectively should be proof it's time to rethink things. It only empowers those types of decisions to continue if the fans buy into it as a legit business decision.

The Magic Kingdom is 37 years old, roughly the same age when Disneyland began rethinking their aging rides in the mid 1990's. I was as big a critic as anyone of Pressler and Harriss and the other Eisner-era execs who were in charge of Disneyland back then. But one thing they did well was keep advancing and changing the old classics. Small World Holiday, Mr. Lincoln 3-D audio, Haunted Mansion Holiday, Pirates rehab '97, Peter Pan update '99, etc., etc.

Let's hope the current WDW management will realize their magic kingdom is entering middle age and it needs a facelift just like Disneyland did 15 years ago. Disneyland got a nip and tuck and some botox and a new wardrobe, and it still looks and feels fabulous.

WDW's Magic Kingdom can do the same with work and luck. But it's going to take rehabs that will "RUIN VACATIONS!".

 

[Timmay]

As for the old argument that Locals = Rehabs and Tourists = Stagnation, I think it's time to put that popular outlook to rest.

Yeah, darn it!! Let's just take that fact and toss it aside as if it means nothing at all.

You may not like it..but the fact is DL can close down attractions for an extended period of time without getting nearly the amount of upset guests as WDW can.

Why do you think that living in Denver I have never seen one commercial or add for DL yet I see them all the time for WDW?? DL caters more to the locals...they don't need me to visit them as much as WDW does.

 

[SirGoofy]

Yeah, darn it!! Let's just take that fact and toss it aside as if it means nothing at all.

You may not like it..but the fact is DL can close down attractions for an extended period of time without getting nearly the amount of upset guests as WDW can.

Why do you think that living in Denver I have never seen one commercial or add for DL yet I see them all the time for WDW?? DL caters more to the locals...they don't need me to visit them as much as WDW does.

that doesn't change the fact that the SM problem is turning into a safety one. It's old. It needs this long rehab.

 

[tirian]

NEWS FLASH FOR FLORIDA:

With the current state of the economy, they're going to need the locals to boost attendance numbers.

The DL/WDW Locals/Tourists argument doesn't tread water anymore.

 

[larryl9797]

NEWS FLASH FOR FLORIDA:

With the current state of the economy, they're going to need the locals to boost attendance numbers.

The DL/WDW Locals/Tourists argument doesn't tread water anymore.

And I bet all major renovations are ammotorized over 5-10 years so short term economic highs and lows probably would not stop a project like this. Attendance can not be tied too closely to refurb projects..

:shrug:

 

[TP2000]

You may not like it..but the fact is DL can close down attractions for an extended period of time without getting nearly the amount of upset guests as WDW can.

Why do you think that living in Denver I have never seen one commercial or add for DL yet I see them all the time for WDW?? DL caters more to the locals...they don't need me to visit them as much as WDW does.

How did WDW survive the 70's and 80's then, when they had a lot fewer attractions yet still stuck to the traditional format of routinely closing attractions for upkeep and refurbishment? And back then there was no Internet that allowed average Americans access to vastly more planning information before they even made a reservation?

Using the assumption that routinely closing an attraction or two for refurbishment will RUIN VACATIONS and bring the Walt Disney World business model crashing to the ground, how did they survive the first 20 years? How did they survive the recent extended Small World or Haunted Mansion rehabs?

And you don't see DL commercials in Denver because you live east of the Rockies (by a hair). If you lived in Seattle or Boise or Portland or Salt Lake or San Francisco or Vancouver or Edmonton you would see Disneyland commericals. I know because I travel to those cities routinely and see the Disneyland commercials all the time. But the moment I arrive in Minneapolis from Edmonton, the local TV stations slot in the WDW commercials where the Disneyland commercials used to be 500 miles west.

LOCALS = REHABS and TOURISTS = STAGNATION is just a really poor excuse for not spending money. And it's rather alarming that so many WDW fans have bought into that excuse as a legit reason why WDW's Peter Pan's Flight still uses the same technology it did when Nixon was in office. That few folks in Florida are upset about that is rather odd.

 

[tirian]

And I bet all major renovations are ammotorized over 5-10 years so short term economic highs and lows probably would not stop a project like this. Attendance can not be tied too closely to refurb projects..

:shrug:

You're right, and your argument is another reason that the excuse doesn't work.

 

[hokielutz]

To be honest, I may miss not going on Space Mountain during my 2009 vacation trips to WDW, but it is not the end of the world or The World. In the end some may complain and write to the Park Management offices... but that is just something that has to be dealt with and move on.

Space Mountain has had a great 35 year run in its current state. Other theme parks would be thrilled for their rides to last half as long as this one without major rehabs. But Space is in need of more than a windex and waxing. You can't polish over mechanical and show degredation, so at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later, the curtain needs to come down on this SM, and rebuild something better.
Expensive... you betcha.
Is it worth it in the end?? If the Imagineers can have their way, it will be.
So I really hope the negative vibes regarding the scaling back of this potential project are just coming from the board posters, and not originating from management.

 

[TP2000]

To be honest, I may miss not going on Space Mountain during my 2009 vacation trips to WDW, but it is not the end of the world or The World. In the end some may complain and write to the Park Management offices... but that is just something that has to be dealt with and move on.

So true.

What also kills me is the blanket statement that Disneyland can close rides for refurbishment easily because it's just "locals" that go there. Certainly Disneyland sits in the middle of one of the largest and most populated mega-cities on the planet. Southern California has 20 million people living within a two hour drive of Disneyland. Orlando would be lucky to find 20 million alligators living within two hours drive.

But it's still Disneyland! Tourists pour into the place by the thousands every day, from around America and far beyond. Anyone who has visited Disneyland recently knows the parks are full of tourists with Australian and New Zealand accents, or the giant Taiwanese tour groups, or small roving packs of Japanese office ladies from Tokyo and Osaka on package holiday. And all of Southern California is bracing for the huge influx of South Koreans in '09 now that the President has signed into law the visa waiver legislation for South Korea. Disneyland is full of TOURISTS!

And yet the world hasn't ended at Disneyland because It's A Small World is currently closed to install Disney Characters and a new Americana scene inside the ride. :wave:

Are they currently staffing riot police at the Magic Kingdom's Guest Relations office because the Country Bear Jamboree is closed this month? No, I didn't think so.

Trust me, refurbishments for aging attractions can happen without causing societal breakdown because VACATIONS HAVE BEEN RUINED! :lol:

 

[tirian]

So I really hope the negative vibes regarding the scaling back of this potential project are just coming from the board posters, and not originating from management.

The "negative vibes" are from immature people of all ages.

 

[Timmay]

How did WDW survive the 70's and 80's then, .

Because the 70's and 80's aren't the 2000's. Surely you can see the difference.

Using the assumption that routinely closing an attraction or two for refurbishment will RUIN VACATIONS and bring the Walt Disney World business model crashing to the ground, how did they survive the first 20 years? How did they survive the recent extended Small World or Haunted Mansion rehabs? .

You, of course, leave out the obvious. We are not just taking about refurbs, which are in fact done on a regular basis. We are talking about taking an attraction off line for two years. Again, surely you can see the difference.

And you don't see DL commercials in Denver because you live east of the Rockies (by a hair). If you lived in Seattle or Boise or Portland or Salt Lake or San Francisco or Vancouver or Edmonton you would see Disneyland commericals. I know because I travel to those cities routinely and see the Disneyland commercials all the time. But the moment I arrive in Minneapolis from Edmonton, the local TV stations slot in the WDW commercials where the Disneyland commercials used to be 500 miles west.

You must be the only person on the face of the planet that thinks Denver is east of the Rockies. The fact is I am a 90 minute flight from DL and a 3 1/2 hour flight from Orlando. I spend time traveling to areas closer to DL than I am and very seldom see adds for DL. Your arguemnt holds no water. Sorry.

LOCALS = REHABS and TOURISTS = STAGNATION is just a really poor excuse for not spending money. And it's rather alarming that so many WDW fans have bought into that excuse as a legit reason why WDW's Peter Pan's Flight still uses the same technology it did when Nixon was in office. That few folks in Florida are upset about that is rather odd.

Again (sigh), WDW does not cater to the locals even close to the extent DL does. More proof of this is the closing of HM every year for a month. There is no way WDW could get away with this. I realize people have trouble accepting obvious facts because they believe they know better than Disney execs. All the falacies in logic will not change that, either.

 

[JWG]

So, thinking back to the original post and Birnbaum...

...maybe they really do know something we don't! Maybe they've received the special keys to the kingdom tour and know which duct tape spots are ready to give out...

 

[culturenthrills]

Again (sigh), WDW does not cater to the locals even close to the extent DL does. More proof of this is the closing of HM every year for a month. There is no way WDW could get away with this. I realize people have trouble accepting obvious facts because they believe they know better than Disney execs. All the falacies in logic will not change that, either.

But WDW should be able to weather major rehabs better than DL because there is four parks instead of two. The biggest problem with the MK right now is that they haven't been updating the attractions over the years. That is why there Fantasyland is a joke and SM is dated ride. The number of repeat visitors has gone up because of DVC and Disney has pushed hard to increase the number of Florida passholders. Who do you think all those people going to Food and Wine are, tourists? There are alot more locals going to WDW than most people think.

 

[TP2000]

Because the 70's and 80's aren't the 2000's. Surely you can see the difference.

Yes. Aside from the whole two young parks becoming four established parks thing, people today have access to vastly superior information regarding planning their vacations in advance. People arriving in 2008 have volumes more information available to them regarding WDW operation, including refurbishments, than the people arriving in 1978 who only had a smudgy carbon copy of an airline ticket, a reservation number, and whatever info their travel agent in the strip mall read off the brochure to them back in Ohio. It's the Age of Information!

You, of course, leave out the obvious. We are not just taking about refurbs, which are in fact done on a regular basis. We are talking about taking an attraction off line for two years. Again, surely you can see the difference.

Good thing WDW has the most attractions of any Disney property on the planet to choose from. If Space Mountain is closed for two years, which is about three times as long as most info leads us to believe the rehab will be, at least there's plenty of other thrill rides to choose from. Disneyland's Space Mountain was closed for 27 months for the track replacement and remake. WDW's Space Mountain is reported to be an 8 month refurbishment in '09, from the most reliable sources on here. If it even happens at all at this point.

You must be the only person on the face of the planet that thinks Denver is east of the Rockies.

I almost checked the map, but stopped myself. I stated that Denver was east of the Rockies "by a hair". Since I've visited friends in Denver this year and remember the mountains being west of the city, I'll stick with that.

Again (sigh), WDW does not cater to the locals even close to the extent DL does. More proof of this is the closing of HM every year for a month. There is no way WDW could get away with this. I realize people have trouble accepting obvious facts because they believe they know better than Disney execs. All the falacies in logic will not change that, either.

Yes, Disneyland has a lot more locals visiting it than WDW does. I don't think anyone has ever claimed differently. But to hear some folks tell it, the entire customer demographic of Disneyland's 14 Million annual visitors is made up of folks driving home on the Santa Ana Freeway who pop in to Disneyland in the early evening for two hours to wait out traffic.

The truth is that Disneyland has a huge number of locals visiting each year. And Disneyland also has a huge number of tourists visiting each year from Seattle and San Jose and Edmonton and Sydney and Auckland and Taipei and Osaka. And somehow the tourists get on with their lives if they come during the three weeks in September when the Haunted Mansion is closed for its annual refurbishment. They probably checked the Internet before they left! :lol:

Refurbishments don't ruin a theme park and they don't ruin an entire vacation. Refurbishments are neccesary to keep things looking good. And if someone really does storm into City Hall in 2008 and tries to tell the hostess that the Peter Pan refurbishment that has been on the website for the past four months has RUINED MY VACATION!, then that guy has a lot bigger issues than his perception that a closed ride at a mega-resort ruined his vacation. :lol:

 

[heliumalias]

Don't forget either that Disneyland is only 2 parks, and 2 SMALL parks at that so even if both parks had the same number of locals going there would always seem to be more at DL. Also the local Annual pass is much cheaper over there and has less restrictions on the dates. I believe mine paid for itself after 3 days in the parks. Personally I've never found that an attraction being closed in either place has RUINED my trip (mildly annoying maybe). I actually find it worse when something is down because of the weather or technical issues because those are much more unpredictable. If the entire ride's closed down for a long period of time then it's not just you that's missing out so just deal with it. As for the localized ads for each park. When I'm in the UK I NEVER see ads for DL most of them are for DLP and occasionally (depending on times of year) there are ones for WDW. Similarly when i lived in LA most of the ads were for DL with the odd one for WDW and then when I'm living in FL all of them are for WDW. I've never seen ads for any other Disney Park but then I wouldn't expect to either.

 

[RSoxNo1]

There was a comparison done recently between the number of attractions at Disneyland/DCA vs all of Walt Disney World. It's a lot closer than you think. The California parks may be smaller in size, but they pack a lot more into them. All of Walt Disney World has less than 10 more attractions than all of Disneyland/DCA

 

[heliumalias]

Apologies, I did not mean to imply there are less attractions merely that they are a lot smaller physically. The fact that there is a similar number (comparitively more) rides at DL simply means that there local annual pass is better value for money. The people I know that remembered the old SM at DL loved the changes that they'd made and valued those over the loss of SM for 2 years.