News Big changes coming to EPCOT's Future World?

[ppete1975]

I don't understand the fascination with the new club cool, its half the size it use to be, its seems like an afterthought (and a generic one at that) off to the side in creations...what's the big deal with this? I found it extremely disappointing. This bland "target" design they are doing with everything is just the bottom of the imagineering barrel.

You're describing my lack of understanding of the fascination with the old Club Cool.

Social media, youtubers and instagrammers have made club cool super popular.. you have to try beverly and take tons of selfies, videos etc. Before then, there were times it was a ghost town.. now its trendy and cool (just to be liked on social media) sigh

 

[Bocabear]

"I think ticket prices are super high but if to be honest, Im kinda glad they area that high because it keeps out a lot of idiots. I know thats a mean thing to say, and Im not saying poor people are idiots, Im poor. I am poorer than probably anyone on this site, I live in Hollywood trying to make it as a comedian/actor...thats not going well so I make a living of driving for uber just so I can pay to stay in a roach infested studio....things are not great for me and I am very poor... Maybe I am in idiot lol...Anyway.... When I go to six flags or Knotts or cheaper parks there are idiots screaming out cuss words and racial slurs everywhere, idiots getting into fights and yelling matches, idiots wearing t shirts that say idiot things and overall just being stupid idiots. Idiots still exist in Disney parks as well but much less so it seems. I would gladly pay a higher price if it keeps out idiots is all im saying."

Yes but wouldn't it be nice if the higher price ticket also came with the same amount of attractions it always did...
instead of less and less for your money...and then rising prices and upcharges on everything else?
This is the first year in a long time I am thinking about cancelling our 2022 trip... mostly because of the rising prices, then the need for the Digital assistant to charge me more money to get on attractions that were always part of the admission price. We could literally go to Europe for a week for less money...

 

[Nthderivative]

I don't think those would even make sense as a foundation for the Festival Table based on its supposed design, but I'm admittedly just going off memory.

It kinda matches with the bottom right columns..

 

[ppete1975]

"I think ticket prices are super high but if to be honest, Im kinda glad they area that high because it keeps out a lot of idiots. I know thats a mean thing to say, and Im not saying poor people are idiots, Im poor. I am poorer than probably anyone on this site, I live in Hollywood trying to make it as a comedian/actor...thats not going well so I make a living of driving for uber just so I can pay to stay in a roach infested studio....things are not great for me and I am very poor... Maybe I am in idiot lol...Anyway.... When I go to six flags or Knotts or cheaper parks there are idiots screaming out cuss words and racial slurs everywhere, idiots getting into fights and yelling matches, idiots wearing t shirts that say idiot things and overall just being stupid idiots. Idiots still exist in Disney parks as well but much less so it seems. I would gladly pay a higher price if it keeps out idiots is all im saying."

Yes but wouldn't it be nice if the higher price ticket also came with the same amount of attractions it always did...
instead of less and less for your money...and then rising prices and upcharges on everything else?
This is the first year in a long time I am thinking about cancelling our 2022 trip... mostly because of the rising prices, then the need for the Digital assistant to charge me more money to get on attractions that were always part of the admission price. We could literally go to Europe for a week for less money...

i think people need to look at disney differently, if you are out of state it doesnt have to be an annual trip, personally i go about every 5 years and thats perfect, i dont really care about the uptick in prices as much, get to enjoy the rest of the world and the magic stays alive as does my excitement November 2022 cant come soon enough... (2015 was my latest)... btw i dont suggest it but that 20 year gap made for the second most enjoyable trip (outside of being 8 and going for the first time and epcot being brand new)
for me..
1983 1985 1989 1993 2013 2015 2022

 

[ppete1975]

That is a huge difference and I was giving that a lot of thought again recently. Those characters can soften the heart, but they wasted it on a retelling book report. If that ride did not exit into an animal exhibit of many aquariums it would be a complete dud and pointless. It is only good now because of the default of everything else near it being so bad.

Living With The Land is not winning anyone huge hits. But as a Pavilion, The Land is the strongest in mission of EPCOT while still entertaining and offering a variety of things with that statement(Soarin' is a bit loose) in one building.

Imagination is so far gone as a Pavilion it is a glaring synonymous showcase of where the company is at with its theme parks.

living with the land has always been loved by lots, outside of world of motion and the original imagination its been my fav since 83

 

[trainplane3]

View attachment 595654

It kinda matches with the bottom right columns..

Except those holes aren't in the right location.
Using this as a point of reference for this specific section of wall, it sits right at the inventors circle:


Holes are right around here-ish, probably further north:

 

[Nthderivative]

Except those holes aren't in the right location.
Using this as a point of reference for this specific section of wall, it sits right at the inventors circle:


Holes are right around here-ish, probably further north:

Thanks for the 2nd photo, it shows a better perspective.

 

[rreading]

If you notice, that is everything they do these days. Look at Creations shop. Look at the World of Disney, look at Illuminations, Reflections of Bob CheapSkate (Harmonious). I have no hope for Guardians or Tron. Can you imagine what the redo of Imagination would be from a company that has all but lost its imagination?

MMRR and RotR would like a word.

Separately, as much as we expect that Chapek will be Cheapek (and we may be right), as uninteresting as Harmonious is to me, I would not say that it was cheap. Conversely, the expense of it will me more of the problem in getting rid of it

 

[celluloid]

MMRR and RotR would like a word.

Separately, as much as we expect that Chapek will be Cheapek (and we may be right), as uninteresting as Harmonious is to me, I would not say that it was cheap. Conversely, the expense of it will me more of the problem in getting rid of it

Those are decent to impressive attractions for sure. As they should be/easier to be for being of the largest Intellectual Properties the company owns in a park that desperately needed them. I don't think it is a financial problems as so many things are inflated and overspent. I think it is creatively bankrupt by not trusting good design will have impact.

Specifically the poster mentioned Imagination, which shows they are not able to administer such ideas to something that is not of the blockbusting film world.

 

[Mstr Gra-c]

You should probably try and gather some information before making a post like this. As posters above have pointed out very articulately, ticket prices have skyrocketed past any other economic measure - go google a chart of price increases vs inflation. And that’s not even considering the absurd increase in hotel rates and the addition of nickel-and-dime nonsense like G+.

As for the other tired boilerplate, your assumptions about me are baseless, I and many other posters go a lot less, I’ll post where I like, and if you’re going to be this arrogant please try harder to be original.

Domestic DPEP ticket price increases are outpacing any other economic metric, from inflation and COLA to movie ticket prices.

I will give you some credit for the way we build things in this country is pretty disastrous in terms of timelines, scope, pick and choose regulations, building up the wrong kinds of infrastructure. I'll also credit that the federal and state governments are either not caring or overtly hostile to workers in the hospitality industry as that industry has grown in this country, so companies are having to actually pay workers more to get the work they need done, done. I'll even say that some part of how the company has been developing attractions caters to consumer tastes that I can charitably describe as... incompatible with something like EPCOT in 1982.

But operationally, there are problems with attraction build out and maintenance that are 99% problems of Disney's own design, with the leftover 1% you can ascribe to the incentive structures of management for a publicly traded company in 2021. They spend money on things that can't cycle more than 2000 people in an hour and leave you thinking "I guess this was fine." It's wild to defend it in totality.

They post billions in profits and pay their executives exorbitant salaries. Stop making excuses for the company.

CG: Its impossible not to see graphs and charts regarding ticket prices going up as compared to inflation. But its a false equivalency. Inflation isn't the metric. The demand curve is. As long as they keep selling the tickets (demand continues) the tickets will keep going up. Simple. It may not fit everyones financial bottom line, but it does Disneys.

fgmnt: Thank you for giving me some credit, yes it is a very hard, very involved, very slow process to build anything in this country in 2021. Disney is no different. And I know this is going to be hard for a lot of folks to hear...but EPCOT 82, is dead. Its never coming back...never will. Not only is it dead...the idea is also dead. I believe your 99%/1% is a bit of hyperbolic puffery but Ill give you credit for the idea that Disney may put up roadblocks based on management that shouldn't be there. But in all honesty, most large companies do as well. Finally, the large 2000 people per hour attractions...may also be on the way out. From what I can tell, most people on this board are mid age and older...lets say 40+. We like rides, we like the old omni-movers and dark rides. The generations below...they may not. They like "personal experiences", the 2000 per hour omnimover type ride, is possibly on the way out, replaced with Augmented Reality, interactive spaces...like GE.

ImperfectPixie: Your animosity toward a huge multinational company, while on a site that often extolls its wonders seems a bit counterintuitive...don't you think? Which is really my whole point...

It doesn't make sense to complain about a product. Simply drop the product. I know its hard, because we all have emotions tied to the thing. But Disney is going to do what THEY think is best for them...not us...thats how companies work.. Always have, always will. You can choose to let it affect you negatively, or use the product in the way that works best for you.

 

[Mstr Gra-c]

i think people need to look at disney differently, if you are out of state it doesnt have to be an annual trip, personally i go about every 5 years and thats perfect, i dont really care about the uptick in prices as much, get to enjoy the rest of the world and the magic stays alive as does my excitement November 2022 cant come soon enough... (2015 was my latest)... btw i dont suggest it but that 20 year gap made for the second most enjoyable trip (outside of being 8 and going for the first time and epcot being brand new)
for me..
1983 1985 1989 1993 2013 2015 2022

Look at Disney differently...well said.

 

[montyz81]

MMRR and RotR would like a word.

Separately, as much as we expect that Chapek will be Cheapek (and we may be right), as uninteresting as Harmonious is to me, I would not say that it was cheap. Conversely, the expense of it will me more of the problem in getting rid of it

I will give you RotR. But, MMRR - I would love to know the cost of projection mapping vs Audioanimatronics development. It would be interesting to see the cost of TGMR in 2019 dollars vs MMRR. I am sure someone here has the comparison. I would also like to see the cost of the original Imagination vs MMRR and RotR. Also compare those costs to the dollar amount the parks made vs operating costs in 1983, 1999, and 2021(or the first full non pandemic influenced year).

 

[ppete1975]

I will give you RotR. But, MMRR - I would love to know the cost of projection mapping vs Audioanimatronics development. It would be interesting to see the cost of TGMR in 2019 dollars vs MMRR. I am sure someone here has the comparison. I would also like to see the cost of the original Imagination vs MMRR and RotR. Also compare those costs to the dollar amount the parks made vs operating costs in 1983, 1999, and 2021(or the first full non pandemic influenced year).

not sure on original cost of projection mapping vs audioanimatronics upfront, but i am sure that maint and upkeep is far cheaper with projections long term.

 

[ImperfectPixie]

CG: Its impossible not to see graphs and charts regarding ticket prices going up as compared to inflation. But its a false equivalency. Inflation isn't the metric. The demand curve is. As long as they keep selling the tickets (demand continues) the tickets will keep going up. Simple. It may not fit everyones financial bottom line, but it does Disneys.

fgmnt: Thank you for giving me some credit, yes it is a very hard, very involved, very slow process to build anything in this country in 2021. Disney is no different. And I know this is going to be hard for a lot of folks to hear...but EPCOT 82, is dead. Its never coming back...never will. Not only is it dead...the idea is also dead. I believe your 99%/1% is a bit of hyperbolic puffery but Ill give you credit for the idea that Disney may put up roadblocks based on management that shouldn't be there. But in all honesty, most large companies do as well. Finally, the large 2000 people per hour attractions...may also be on the way out. From what I can tell, most people on this board are mid age and older...lets say 40+. We like rides, we like the old omni-movers and dark rides. The generations below...they may not. They like "personal experiences", the 2000 per hour omnimover type ride, is possibly on the way out, replaced with Augmented Reality, interactive spaces...like GE.

ImperfectPixie: Your animosity toward a huge multinational company, while on a site that often extolls its wonders seems a bit counterintuitive...don't you think? Which is really my whole point...

It doesn't make sense to complain about a product. Simply drop the product. I know its hard, because we all have emotions tied to the thing. But Disney is going to do what THEY think is best for them...not us...thats how companies work.. Always have, always will. You can choose to let it affect you negatively, or use the product in the way that works best for you.

As stated elsewhere, brushing off people's complaints and saying "don't go", "don't post about it", "don't purchase the product", etc. etc. is really pathetic and indicates a lack of understanding of multiple issues.

 

[ppete1975]

CG: Its impossible not to see graphs and charts regarding ticket prices going up as compared to inflation. But its a false equivalency. Inflation isn't the metric. The demand curve is. As long as they keep selling the tickets (demand continues) the tickets will keep going up. Simple. It may not fit everyones financial bottom line, but it does Disneys.

fgmnt: Thank you for giving me some credit, yes it is a very hard, very involved, very slow process to build anything in this country in 2021. Disney is no different. And I know this is going to be hard for a lot of folks to hear...but EPCOT 82, is dead. Its never coming back...never will. Not only is it dead...the idea is also dead. I believe your 99%/1% is a bit of hyperbolic puffery but Ill give you credit for the idea that Disney may put up roadblocks based on management that shouldn't be there. But in all honesty, most large companies do as well. Finally, the large 2000 people per hour attractions...may also be on the way out. From what I can tell, most people on this board are mid age and older...lets say 40+. We like rides, we like the old omni-movers and dark rides. The generations below...they may not. They like "personal experiences", the 2000 per hour omnimover type ride, is possibly on the way out, replaced with Augmented Reality, interactive spaces...like GE.

ImperfectPixie: Your animosity toward a huge multinational company, while on a site that often extolls its wonders seems a bit counterintuitive...don't you think? Which is really my whole point...

It doesn't make sense to complain about a product. Simply drop the product. I know its hard, because we all have emotions tied to the thing. But Disney is going to do what THEY think is best for them...not us...thats how companies work.. Always have, always will. You can choose to let it affect you negatively, or use the product in the way that works best for you.

I am so glad you are here!!! All this time we couldnt figure out that the original Epcot was a thing of the past. I dont think anyone on here think that the original concept would work today. BUT we do like the fact..... I will back up and stop using WE. I do think that the park formerly known as Epcot was a marvel, forget the concept for a second.. look at the architecture, every building built in Epcot was a piece of Art that deserved to be a museum or a painted backdrop to a futuristic movie. Each building deserved to be its own thing they were so majestic, but 6 later 7 were all in the same area let alone the same park. Each was its own piece of art. In each of these buildings was an attraction/ride that had no IP was purely created by imagineers and left people in awe and excitement to the future.
Now we get book reports of IP, or just ip shoved for no reason. We lost any idea of architecture instead lets build a box, lets build huge barges (if this had been original epcot they would have been submergible and hidden), heck they destroyed horizons, and the beauty of uofe and wom
The original Epcot and part that should still be relevant is
creativity -replaced by laziness
architecture- replaced by boxes and coverings
anything new takes 4-5 years
original epcot wouldnt let the park get so dirty and the monorails not replaced
I will say that as much as people hated it, the table could have been cool as long as the size didnt mess with space ship earth (then again theres a big box that does that)
I am glad that they still plant tons of flowers around the waters edge and they still landscape the park, the new fountain is also an improvement (even if it copies what they messed up before)

The builders and believers of Epcot wanted a beautiful perfect park unlike anything before it, and thats what makes me sad.. it has nothing to even do with the attractions (although some of those hurt)

It would be like me inheriting falling water, then immediately cutting down all the trees, painting it black and damming up the river. Then putting in modern funiture and appliances and ripping up the floors and installing linoleum

The other issue i have is to call out CG, fgment, and imperfect pixie. They are all on here all the time with amazing insight, points and knowledge.... before today id never even seen you on here.

 

[MisterPenguin]

If Epcot's supposed to be a permanent world's fair, then, where's the Ferris wheel?!?

 

[sedati]

If Epcot's supposed to be a permanent world's fair, then, where's the Ferris wheel?!?

the-epcot-denmark-pavilion-project.html
Chapek time-traveling cheapness confirmed

 

[fgmnt]

fgmnt: Thank you for giving me some credit, yes it is a very hard, very involved, very slow process to build anything in this country in 2021. Disney is no different. And I know this is going to be hard for a lot of folks to hear...but EPCOT 82, is dead. Its never coming back...never will. Not only is it dead...the idea is also dead. I believe your 99%/1% is a bit of hyperbolic puffery but Ill give you credit for the idea that Disney may put up roadblocks based on management that shouldn't be there. But in all honesty, most large companies do as well. Finally, the large 2000 people per hour attractions...may also be on the way out. From what I can tell, most people on this board are mid age and older...lets say 40+. We like rides, we like the old omni-movers and dark rides. The generations below...they may not. They like "personal experiences", the 2000 per hour omnimover type ride, is possibly on the way out, replaced with Augmented Reality, interactive spaces...like GE.

I try to find some nuance in modern attraction development that makes me appear deferential to Disney and critical of modern consumer tastes. I do think that development of the Guardians coaster project in EPCOT and the cloning of TRON in Magic Kingdom are examples of the company responding to consumer tastes in an incredibly cynical and flippant way. I don't want to use the word lazy because plenty of footsoldiers are definitely working hard on developing the attractions. I put a failure to challenge WDI to come up with a TRON concept that fits EPCOT (a Digital Frontier of TRON pavilion seems like a good enough fit like The Seas), and a Guardians dark ride that fits Tomorrowland on management. Take the most-value engineered idea of cloning a Space Mountain replacement in another castle park to be a Space Mountain... challenger? companion? in the biggest castle park is cynical and flippant. Tossing a roller coaster into EPCOT with little reasoning other than wanting to throw slop to the masses is cynical and flippant.

Trying to finagle an actual percentage belies the rhetorical point: there is some degree with which Wall Street has influenced how Disney management treats the company they are charged to run, but the multigenerational institutional rot is a problem that is apparent to most any stakeholder in the company, from frontline employees to now-wavering but once enthusiastic customers. Since the death of Frank Wells, the Disney difference has devolved from being a creative company challenging itself for the benefit of itself and its customers, into a Borg, an infinite maw. No one invested at any point in developing meaningful, transcendent production in the company has been at the head in almost 20 years. No one in the relevant EVP offices have either. Treating the domestic parks as a mature asset for the last two decades has been a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.

Flight of Passage was the first innovation in the domestic parks since, I don't know, Soarin'? Toy Story Mania feels too charitable, and I can't think of anything else between 1999 and 2015 (I guess it's hypocritical to not think that FoP is derivative of Soarin and Toy Story Mania IS derivative of any dark ride shooter that came before, but c'est la vie). Disregarding the need to develop and innovate the product allowed the parade of soul-sucking clowns from Pressler, to Staggs, to the final boss of Bob Chapek, to drive the most unique and defining division of the company into the ditch.

Now it's all we can come to accept and know; that the division has no higher ambition than making more money. Hey, it's a publicly traded, for profit American corporation. Making money is kind of the point! We're not children. In fact, I think people who focus on the parks division of the company can by and large have a more healthy approach to engaging with the company than the adults who froth over the latest movies or shows. Most anyone who aligns with these thoughts consciously visit the parks less, or otherwise engage with the parks in a way that separates less money from them than it would in the past.

Imagining that to be the ultimate solution to the plight is disingenuous. I have friends who work for the company. I have memories I love to share with people in my life now or might be in the future, because of the work the company has done. I recognize that so much of the value of the company, both on and off the balance sheet, comes from adequate stewardship of the domestic parks. Poor stewardship will rot the company out until it might be too late, but all we really get to do on here is complain about it.

 

[Mstr Gra-c]

As stated elsewhere, brushing off people's complaints and saying "don't go", "don't post about it", "don't purchase the product", etc. etc. is really pathetic and indicates a lack of understanding of multiple issues.

Ok so enlighten me...

 

[Mstr Gra-c]

I am so glad you are here!!! All this time we couldnt figure out that the original Epcot was a thing of the past. I dont think anyone on here think that the original concept would work today. BUT we do like the fact..... I will back up and stop using WE. I do think that the park formerly known as Epcot was a marvel, forget the concept for a second.. look at the architecture, every building built in Epcot was a piece of Art that deserved to be a museum or a painted backdrop to a futuristic movie. Each building deserved to be its own thing they were so majestic, but 6 later 7 were all in the same area let alone the same park. Each was its own piece of art. In each of these buildings was an attraction/ride that had no IP was purely created by imagineers and left people in awe and excitement to the future.

Now we get book reports of IP, or just ip shoved for no reason. We lost any idea of architecture instead lets build a box, lets build huge barges (if this had been original epcot they would have been submergible and hidden), heck they destroyed horizons, and the beauty of uofe and wom
The original Epcot and part that should still be relevant is
creativity -replaced by laziness
architecture- replaced by boxes and coverings
anything new takes 4-5 years
original epcot wouldnt let the park get so dirty and the monorails not replaced
I will say that as much as people hated it, the table could have been cool as long as the size didnt mess with space ship earth (then again theres a big box that does that)
I am glad that they still plant tons of flowers around the waters edge and they still landscape the park, the new fountain is also an improvement (even if it copies what they messed up before)

The builders and believers of Epcot wanted a beautiful perfect park unlike anything before it, and thats what makes me sad.. it has nothing to even do with the attractions (although some of those hurt)

It would be like me inheriting falling water, then immediately cutting down all the trees, painting it black and damming up the river. Then putting in modern funiture and appliances and ripping up the floors and installing linoleum

The other issue i have is to call out CG, fgment, and imperfect pixie. They are all on here all the time with amazing insight, points and knowledge.... before today id never even seen you on here.

If you want to see how long I have been a member of the WDWMagic community...just click on my icon...go ahead...I'll wait.

Okay, now that that's over. I didn't "call them out". I responded IN SUPPORT of someone else's comment. It was CG who responded negatively to me. Im simply defending my point. Now against 3 people.

I am still in love with the version of EPCOT that I first encountered in 1989. I miss it dearly. Your facts are all very well laid out, very well researched and wonderfully communicated. And I agree 100%. Still...it doesn't change the fact that its not coming back...never will. What you are going to have is IP, upkeep issues and some architecture that you may deem unsatisfactory. Im sorry.
(Also, you may want to avoid references to Frank Lloyd Wright when talking about new architecture you don't admire. If I'm correct, a lot of his work was deemed foolish to his contemporaries but now honored by us.)