Avatar in Tomorrowland

[Disney Irish]

I would say that it’s in the public consciousness as an “event” to see on the big screen. But that’s where it ends. The characters are forgotten and nobody cares about the story.

Not sure I agree with that. We'll have to see how it goes in a couple years when Avatar 3 comes out. If the box office dies off between 2 and 3 then I would agree with you, but if it doesn't then we know its not just an "event" film but also people are actually interested in the characters and story.

 

[Professortango1]

I'm not sure I understand your point on "over-estimated the merit of film-goers".

Many thought that once we saw that the emperor had no clothes, film goers wouldn't be so easily duped to buy tickets to his next fashion show. But people don't care. Fewer tickets than what the original sold week to week so far, but interest is certainly there still.

As for merch and cultural impact, I don't need to see the receipts. I can just say that I SEE people sporting Potter and Star Wars and Frozen. I don't see people sporting Avatar. They saw it. Most liked it. But they haven't turned it into a piece of their identity. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it hasn't yet. Even with the missteps of the previously mentioned franchises with later films, the culture is still strong. Even with Rowling herself starting feuds with her fanbase, the fanbase cannot abandon the IP.

 

[Disney Irish]

Many thought that once we saw that the emperor had no clothes, film goers wouldn't be so easily duped to buy tickets to his next fashion show. But people don't care. Fewer tickets than what the original sold week to week so far, but interest is certainly there still.

As for merch and cultural impact, I don't need to see the receipts. I can just say that I SEE people sporting Potter and Star Wars and Frozen. I don't see people sporting Avatar. They saw it. Most liked it. But they haven't turned it into a piece of their identity. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it hasn't yet. Even with the missteps of the previously mentioned franchises with later films, the culture is still strong. Even with Rowling herself starting feuds with her fanbase, the fanbase cannot abandon the IP.

I think many in the Disney fandom are downplaying its cultural impact, just as you are, all because its not in your face like other fandoms. And that is where I think many are wrong, it doesn't have to be in your face with people wearing Avatar merch or cosplaying as Jake and Neytiri to have had a cultural impact.

Movieweb sums it up better than I can, its a good read on why Avatar really has a cultural impact beyond just the in your face merch litmus test that everyone seems to use:

Avatar and the Truth of its Cultural Impact

Here's why Avatar has an impact that doesn't rely on commercialism, merchandise, or countless intermediate sequels to stay relevant.

movieweb.com

 

[networkpro]

I dont see the "cultural impact" of Avatar either, unless you always root for the underdog. Acculturation has been the norm throughout history in spite of the Nobel Savage myth.

 

[Consumer]

The worst part about Avatar is how its allegory implies the Native Americans lived in blissful harmony and did not engage in territorial wars or practice human sacrifice. I just want some depth and nuances to the world of Pandora instead of this primitive utopia where toilets are illegal.

 

[networkpro]

The worst part about Avatar is how its allegory implies the Native Americans lived in blissful harmony and did not engage in territorial wars or practice human sacrifice. I just want some depth and nuances to the world of Pandora instead of this primitive utopia where toilets are illegal.

Let's not forget cannibalism, slavery, and internecine warfare over land and resources.

 

[Phroobar]

The north American tribes were nomadic. They stayed in one place until the resources were dried up and then moved to greener pastures. The environmentalist stuff was made up in the 70s. Iron-eyes Cody was Italian.

The 'Crying Indian' ad that fooled the environmental movement

How the beverage and packaging industries shifted the public conversation about litter.

www.chicagotribune.com

 

[tcool123]

The worst part about Avatar is how its allegory implies the Native Americans lived in blissful harmony and did not engage in territorial wars or practice human sacrifice. I just want some depth and nuances to the world of Pandora instead of this primitive utopia where toilets are illegal.

James Cameron has said that the following Abatar will bring in the Ash Na’vi - the Fire Tribe. They’re meant to be instigators of conflict for the Na’vi. In addition we will be seeing the good side of humanity in the following film as we’re simultaneously exploring the dark side of Pandora. This comes all from Cameron himself

 

[Phroobar]

James Cameron has said that the following Abatar will bring in the Ash Na’vi - the Fire Tribe. They’re meant to be instigators of conflict for the Na’vi. In addition we will be seeing the good side of humanity in the following film as we’re simultaneously exploring the dark side of Pandora. This comes all from Cameron himself

Now that sounds a lot more fun. Bring on the Na'vi sith witches!

 

[Consumer]

James Cameron has said that the following Abatar will bring in the Ash Na’vi - the Fire Tribe. They’re meant to be instigators of conflict for the Na’vi. In addition we will be seeing the good side of humanity in the following film as we’re simultaneously exploring the dark side of Pandora. This comes all from Cameron himself

Exciting. Avatar 3 definitely sounds like it'll be the best of the series, but it is strange how despite how much of this franchise has been planned out so far in advance, there is almost no teasing, foreshadowing, or set up to this expanded world we're going to see in any of the movies.

 

[Professortango1]

Yeah, Cameron expands on the world while making it seem smaller each film. The first one felt like we were dropped into one area of an entire planet with no clue about the outside. This movie has characters constantly bump into each other and a water tribe and animals that feel very similar to the forest tribe and animals. Now, in true Avatar TLA we are meeting the hot-headed Fire tribe.

I'm just hoping in the 3rd film they say they cloned the space whales off screen so none of them died and that they can fly now and old lady teenager can ride the flying space whale around on adventures.

 

[Professortango1]

I think many in the Disney fandom are downplaying its cultural impact, just as you are, all because its not in your face like other fandoms. And that is where I think many are wrong, it doesn't have to be in your face with people wearing Avatar merch or cosplaying as Jake and Neytiri to have had a cultural impact.

Movieweb sums it up better than I can, its a good read on why Avatar really has a cultural impact beyond just the in your face merch litmus test that everyone seems to use:

Avatar and the Truth of its Cultural Impact

Here's why Avatar has an impact that doesn't rely on commercialism, merchandise, or countless intermediate sequels to stay relevant.

movieweb.com

The article says its culturally impactful without ever proving how. It says it doesn't rely on merch and fast-tracked sequels, but it doesn't show how the film has become part of our cultural zeitgeist. And....despite the article and Cameron's thoughts, I'd still prefer to see actors in make-up than the CGI characters. They look good, but I still know I'm watching animated characters. I am reminded of a video game cut scene and I keep waiting for the level to start.

 

[Disney Irish]

The article says its culturally impactful without ever proving how. It says it doesn't rely on merch and fast-tracked sequels, but it doesn't show how the film has become part of our cultural zeitgeist. And....despite the article and Cameron's thoughts, I'd still prefer to see actors in make-up than the CGI characters. They look good, but I still know I'm watching animated characters. I am reminded of a video game cut scene and I keep waiting for the level to start.

Your personal opinions aside regarding your preference on actors in make-up versus CGI, the impact the franchise has had on technological improvements to things like motion capture and other parts of the movie making process is part of its cultural impact. This is what the article is talking about. Its not just the amount of T-Shirts sold and worn around by fanbois that makes something culturally impactful, its how it changes industries that is its true impact.

You can say there are a few franchises that have done this like Star Wars and Marvel, and Avatar is included in that discussion.

 

[Phroobar]

Yeah, Cameron expands on the world while making it seem smaller each film. The first one felt like we were dropped into one area of an entire planet with no clue about the outside. This movie has characters constantly bump into each other and a water tribe and animals that feel very similar to the forest tribe and animals. Now, in true Avatar TLA we are meeting the hot-headed Fire tribe.

I'm just hoping in the 3rd film they say they cloned the space whales off screen so none of them died and that they can fly now and old lady teenager can ride the flying space whale around on adventures.

Ripley can do anything.

 

[Phroobar]

Your personal opinions aside regarding your preference on actors in make-up versus CGI, the impact the franchise has had on technological improvements to things like motion capture and other parts of the movie making process is part of its cultural impact. This is what the article is talking about. Its not just the amount of T-Shirts sold and worn around by fanbois that makes something culturally impactful, its how it changes industries that is its true impact.

You can say there are a few franchises that have done this like Star Wars and Marvel, and Avatar is included in that discussion.

That's true. From an industry point of view, Avatar was game changer. The same happen for Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Walt Disney's Snow White and Toy Story. Movies are made very differently because of advances in technology created for these movies. Marvel's big C-change was creating a series of films where characters can jump in and out of other character's movies. More of a writing c-change than technical or cultural.

 

[Disney Irish]

That's true. From an industry point of view, Avatar was game changer. The same happen for Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Walt Disney's Snow White and Toy Story. Movies are made very differently because of advances in technology created for these movies. Marvel's big C-change was creating a series of films where characters can jump in and out of other character's movies. More of a writing c-change than technical or cultural.

I would also add in there the development and use of The Volume as one of the impacts to the industry by both Star Wars and Marvel.

 

[Professortango1]

Your personal opinions aside regarding your preference on actors in make-up versus CGI, the impact the franchise has had on technological improvements to things like motion capture and other parts of the movie making process is part of its cultural impact. This is what the article is talking about. Its not just the amount of T-Shirts sold and worn around by fanbois that makes something culturally impactful, its how it changes industries that is its true impact.

You can say there are a few franchises that have done this like Star Wars and Marvel, and Avatar is included in that discussion.

Yes, Cameron has always been pushing tech which makes it important on a technical level, but not culturally. Nobody is saying that The Abyss is an important film for people just because it broke ground with Computer Graphics. The Frighteners helped WETA develop into what they would do with The LOTR trilogy yet I wouldn't argue that The Frighteners is a culturally significant film even I enjoy it on a personal level.

Important doesn't mean culturally relevant. If it was, then Young Sherlock Holmes would be getting more deserved love.

I applaud Cameron and his work with furthering tech. I personally wish her put more effort into the writing side of things with Avatar, but there's no denying his achievements in terms of helping to build tools for other directors to incorporate.

I'm just glad he made Titanic when he did as the scale of practical effects is what helped make that movie what it was. If he made it today with CGI, I'm not sure it would hit the same.

 

[Disney Irish]

Yes, Cameron has always been pushing tech which makes it important on a technical level, but not culturally. Nobody is saying that The Abyss is an important film for people just because it broke ground with Computer Graphics. The Frighteners helped WETA develop into what they would do with The LOTR trilogy yet I wouldn't argue that The Frighteners is a culturally significant film even I enjoy it on a personal level.

Important doesn't mean culturally relevant. If it was, then Young Sherlock Holmes would be getting more deserved love.

I applaud Cameron and his work with furthering tech. I personally wish her put more effort into the writing side of things with Avatar, but there's no denying his achievements in terms of helping to build tools for other directors to incorporate.

I'm just glad he made Titanic when he did as the scale of practical effects is what helped make that movie what it was. If he made it today with CGI, I'm not sure it would hit the same.

I disagree, cultural impact can be for any reason including improvements to its industry. Just because some films aren't recognized for their improvements to the industry doesn't mean they haven't had a cultural impact behind the scenes.

 

[Phroobar]

I think The Terminator and Terminator 2 were as close as he got to cultural importance and maybe Titanic. He started out a model maker for Roger Corman. The space ship Neil was built by him for Battle Beyond the Stars. Since then he and Lucas has been pushing the envelop on the technical side of movie making. Granted his film writing isn't that great but it sure is better than anything Disney is putting out now. I'm looking at you Strange World!

 

[Professortango1]

I disagree, cultural impact can be for any reason including improvements to its industry. Just because some films aren't recognized for their improvements to the industry doesn't mean they haven't had a cultural impact behind the scenes.

I thought your initial argument was that Disney fans underestimated Avatar saying it hasn't remained culturally significant. (To which people agreed that it still has box office power despite not becoming a story that audiences latched onto outside of the theater).

Now you have changed the argument to be that Avatar is technically important for its industry...which nobody is really arguing that it isn't.