Attendence falls at WDW per lastest earnings release...

captainkidd

Well-Known Member
But at what point does Wall Street finally agree the parks are operating on a BUBBLE created by discounts? What happens when the discounts end? I won't attack Disney for its ticket prices, but the resorts are obscenely overpriced.

Standard club level is about $320/night at the Ritz-Carlton; it's about $600/night at the Grand Floridian (regular season). :brick: :brick: :brick:

I say, soon. No one ever thought cost would matter at Disney. I never did either. But when I opened up the Official Guide this year and saw rack rates at $440 per night for the GF, and $400 for the Poly, I had a feeling it was only a matter of time.

Don't get me wrong - I don't believe Disney is hurting, and WDW resorts are still at a high occupancy. I just think this is the beginning.
 
Not to open this old can of worms again, but I don't get all the hubbubb over Harry Potter. I get that it's popular, and Universal did a great job with that little area, but that's all it is - A little area. It's not like it's a whole day experience. There's one new ride, and a couple of small stores.

OT - Here's the thing with Universal. If you're gonna do it, stay on-site. Either that or fork over the bucks for the unlimited express option. Universal is awesome for 2 days that way. Otherwise, don't even bother. You'll end up spending hours in line to see everything.

http://www.mugglenet.com/app/news/show/3849

For those who missed it, Quality > resting on laurels.
 

Duckberg

Active Member
HMMmmmm!

prices Prices PRICES :brick:$400.00/night for a room ??? :hurl: Duckberg :mad:

PS Food & Wine Fest over $$$ for what you get. Some of the same wines offered can be found @ local Publix Stores in Orlando for a lot less & their wine sample prices are also a rip off. Maybe that's why the crowds in Epcot seemed lighter this year! :cool:
 

bugsbunny

Well-Known Member
True indeed, some people are so in love with disney there to blind to see there getting took advantage of.It's good to see people are waking up and recognizing just that.

I'm closing in on 30 trips of 7+ days or more and I agree with what you are saying in spirit. The costs of staying onsite are great when you go for the first couple of times. You just can't beat the ambiance and the eye candy of the places.

But after a few trips, you being to realize that you are staying in an overdressed motel for the values and moderates at $200/night! Don't get me wrong the places are beautiful, but I'm in the parks all day and at the boardwalk or a park at night....I sleep and shower in the room...that's it! For $200/night? And then I think about the 10 days I stayed at WL and realized I spent $2700 to sleep. When I closed my eyes to go to sleep, the room looked just like when I was at Pop or POR. :ROFLOL:

Then add in the ever declining bus service. Every year, I say to myself, it seems the buses are worse than last year. And then it does. I don't think I've had a trip in the last 5 years that didn't have at least 1, if not 2, 45 minutes wait for a bus. Between the rising ticket costs, the crucified dining plan, and the exploding scooter population; I can't find anymore reason to stay on property. Every "plus" that you get from staying on property is negated by something else it seems.

I did a quote where I can stay at a 5 bedroom house from allstarvacationhomes.com where it was $1000 cheaper than getting 2 rooms at a moderate.....AND the house had 2 rental cars in the price!!! Plus, the house was closer to Animal Kingdom than any of the moderates were!!

It may be "resort pricing", but Disney needs to get their lodging prices under wraps if they want more to increase attendance. Giving a rack rate discount gets negated by the dining plan costs or if they give you "free" dining, the rack rates are high enough to almost wipe out any saving. The average American took a huge hit the last 2 years and simply don't have the money to stay anywhere but a Value and in a lot of cases, even that is 100% higher than a local Holiday Inn.

After the economy took a dump, WDW attendance was steady. But don't forget that so many of those trips were booked 1 or even 2 years out. So they were bought many moons ago and people went regardless. Now we are in the time frame where people would have booked a trip 1 or 2 years ago and would be going now...and they aren't. Well, duh!! Of course not! But don't worry, I'm sure the boys in marketing and finance have a great plan to get that fixed. Like fixing the abysmal safari ride in AK by making it a walking tour...with an added price of $100/head. :ROFLOL:
 

SeaBase86

Member
For those who say Potter has NOTHING to do with such a steep difference they are in some serious denial. WDW earnings are down, Universal's attendance is up..and not just up. 36 percent up with both attendance and merch spending is at an all time high.

This is the most correct and spot on post in this thread. If you don't believe this you really are in denial.
 

20009551sc

New Member
We have been loyal Disney patrons for 20 years. Both my kids have grown up at Disney. My daughter is 19 and son 15. We have stayed at the campground and hotels with the Pop being the family favorite. We are the biggest Disney fans but you have to have your head buried in the sand not to notice the decline of the empire. The bus service that was passable in the past has gotten to to point where we now drive. The hotels who had clean rooms with well manicured grounds are changing too. Yes as guests, we need to complain at the substandard things but in the past you didn't need to. The parks are stale and the imagineers should shot themselves as their is not much new imagination being used. My son doesn't want to go anymore as he says he's seen it all before. My daughter is a Harry Potter fan so we have made several trips to Universal. The biggest factor for me is the economic times we are in. I am the only one working at the momnet so there is little to no extra money to spend. We love staying on property and have done so for years. Now at trip must be well planned down to the last dollar which in itself makes for less fun! I can't justify the rates Disney wants for us to stay in a room that we pretty much sleep in and that's all. The wow factor has left Disney and I wish they would see that. Again I love Disney. When there everything else in my adult world melts away but you can't escape everything. Unfortunatley the DOLLAR seems to rule my life any more and I have less of them to work with.
 

captainkidd

Well-Known Member
The problem is location and convenience. Disney's got you by the nads, so to speak. With my family, staying on property is a HUGE convenience. There are days the wife wants to take the little ones back to the room, and the oldest wants to stay in the park. Staying off site makes that difficult, if not, impossible. So, we've always caved to Disney's on site pricing. Mainly because, as AP holders, there have always been great rates at the resorts. I said this earlier, if Disney wants to up attendance, they have to extend their discounts out longer than just a few months. Most of us plan our vacations probably close to a year in advance. And when we look at the rack rates we're quoted by Disney, we're in shell shock and start looking off site. That's what is happening.
 

Lee

Adventurer
then dropped him as soon as Disney shareholders decided he wasn't maintaining the Company's heart anymore.
But then, who is maintaining the company's heart? Iger? Rasulo? The army of pencil-pushers who have designed the disasterous current Parks and Resorts business model?
Nope.


But at what point does Wall Street finally agree the parks are operating on a BUBBLE created by discounts? What happens when the discounts end?
They don't look that close. All they see is pure numbers with either a plus or minus in front.
In my opinion, from the purely selfish point of view of one who wants to see the parks expand, grow and recapture some of the magic of years past, all discounting needs to stop ASAP.
Here's the problem as I see it:
-The current business model they are using, and have been for a while, is one that mandates that everything has to show a profit. Rides, restaurants, shows, shops...all of it has to have a quantifiable reason for existing.
Ever wonder why they aren't building many big E-tickets anymore? That's why. The sharp-pencil boys look at the cost of building/operating/maintaining a major E, then measure how much profit can be made over it's lifespan. Spending $100-$200mil on a ride that won't pay for itself quickly is a risk they aren't willing to take these days, except for instances where that kind of outlay is needed to help rescue a park with issues (AK, DCA).
Compounding the problem are the many discounts, including Magic Your Way and dining. Think about it. Back in the day when Disney parks were a premium product and it seemed like a major new ride was always just around the corner, how were tickets being sold? I'll tell you how...full price. You want to go to the parks, you pay full price for your ticket. Buy a two or three day pass and you may save a couple of dollars. Could everyone afford to go, perhaps not. A Disney vacation was a luxury, something to be looked ahead to and saved for.
Now days, thanks to MYW, many guests are paying as low as $30 per day. A park full of guests paying that little is not making the money it used to. At that point management is just hoping that by getting the warm bodies into the park they will get some money off of food and merch, and not even hoping to generate enough profit to be able to justify building a big E. All it does is get butts in the seats and let's managament tell Wall St. that attendance is up. It's all smoke and mirrors.
If we want to get major new rides and other investments into the parks,either the current business model or all ticket discounting needs to go. Attendance will suffer in the short term, but will eventually rebound.

-Next, they need to cut the dining discounts. Like the cheap tickets, they are using it to get guests in the door, then making what profit they can by reducing the portion size, quality, and uniqueness of the meals. Makes the bottom line look good and perhaps lets a few guests who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford the high-priced meals find a spot at the table, but at the expense of the things I listed above: quality and uniqueness.
Even worse is taking a park's highest-end restaurant, dumbing down and limiting the menu, then raising the meal cost and demand by promising that a character will visit you at your table. Didn't used to be that way, and it was better.

-Hotels. Tough one. They have painted themseves into a corner. They need to charge a lot for the rooms in order to offset many of the other discounts. The best move may be to eliminate the room discountts, but return the rack rates to a reasonable level. Guests may pay a little more for their room, but in the long run, as with all the other discount eliminations, they will receive a better park experience from the increased revenue. Gonna take someone with a ton of bravery to start cutting those discounts. Could cause a revolt by guests who aren't looking at the big picture.

-While I am on the topic of hotels...they need to stop building them. Seriously. More rooms, at heavily discounted rates, is going to do nothing but make things worse. Yes you are getting bodies into the hotels, and by extension into the parks, but with the discounts you aren't really seeing a profit increase. All you get are crowded parks with long lines at the same old rides, and longer waits to get an overpriced meal at one of the restaurants that hasn't been closed for no reason (Pirate, Veranda, Terrace...)
Attendance goes up, capacity and guest satisfaction go down.

*sigh*
Enough of this. Sorry if none of it makes any sense. Way too early on a Saturday morning to rant about this stuff...:lol:
 

PalisadesPkteer

Active Member
Lee wins post of the Millennium!

Actually of all time! Told you a while back you were a smart guy in a post about what they should do with Imagination building.

I was right again! Did not buy a Annual pass this time. Had done it for at least 3 - 4 years.

No Lights of Winter, no Belle show, Mickeys night before Christmas gone, carolers at AK gone, poor decorations especially at EPCOT, living statues gone, the 3 or 4 guys who sang before BatB show at DHS gone and lots more I could mention. I will be going to DL in 2011 and not WDW. When I do get back to WDW will not stay on property again for reasons you mentioned.

I vote for Martin for CEO with all encompassing powers over all of Disney.

Wait, you mean the elections are over! Darn! Well lets put you in next time.
 

lightning509s

New Member
Original Poster
Enough of this. Sorry if none of it makes any sense. Way too early on a Saturday morning to rant about this stuff...:lol:

Great points Lee and spot on! Walt wanted a park that everyone could enjoy and he designed his business model around this. The current "bean pushers," as you stated, are all about the $$$'s to be made per investment. Hopefully this will be a wake up call to Anahiem to get the WDW ship sailing straight and true once again!
 

Dwarful

Well-Known Member
We stayed at Yacht Club this past July. We had to wait for the room to be recleaned and the door on the mini-fridge to be fixed, someone had yanked it off the cabinet and just leaned it against the front panel. We noticed leaking windows, peeling wallpaper and our room had a hole in the wall where it looked like someone had punched it.

We did have a great discount, but for the rack rate, this room was not all that large. I would never pay rack rate for this resort. Yes the pool was great and we could walk to Epcot the the Studios or take a boat. However the biggest complaint I heard was about the buses. Most people weren't expecting to share a bus with five resorts...which led to some serious wait times at AK. Yacht, Beach, Swan, Dolphin & Boardwalk all shared at AK and at park close it was worse than the All Stars.


We have three different weeks available for 2011 vacations. So far, no discounts for any of those weeks. If we go to FL. in 2011 we most likely will do 4 or 5 days at WDW and 4 days off site to hit Universal, Sea World & the beach. We haven't been to U & SW in 8 years, but our girls are ready to go back and see what is new. So even if we go and stay onsite it will be for half the time...or we might use the Teacher rate at Swan/Dolphin - those discounts are available for our trip dates.
 

tirian

Well-Known Member
^^ Yep, that's the catch, Lee. Everything is caught in limbo because the prices already are hyper-inflated. Removing the MYW and dining discounts won't solve anything if the prices don't settle back down to reality. Almost every guest staying in a Disney resort is on a discount plan.

The entire business strategy of the Parks division goes against the basic principles of business school. I won't elaborate because you already did; but as long as Wall Street is happy, very few people are going to care how Disney achieved the numbers—until the discounts and under-investment catch up with them. And before anyone turns purple shouting about the recent improvements in the MK: I applaud WDW for finally restoring the capacity and maintenance the park enjoyed for three decades.

Amazingly, throughout the 80s and 90s, Disney was able to keep their ticket and dining prices reasonable and their resort prices within an acceptable range; and they constantly built new attractions, attracted sponsors, stocked unique stores, premiered new parades, and captured the world's imagination as the premiere vacation destination. CMs and management were paid better, too.

When your advertising campaign has to convince people to remember better times instead of enticing them with new magic, you've got a problem.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
They don't look that close. All they see is pure numbers with either a plus or minus in front.
In my opinion, from the purely selfish point of view of one who wants to see the parks expand, grow and recapture some of the magic of years past, all discounting needs to stop ASAP.
Here's the problem as I see it:
-The current business model they are using, and have been for a while, is one that mandates that everything has to show a profit. Rides, restaurants, shows, shops...all of it has to have a quantifiable reason for existing.
Ever wonder why they aren't building many big E-tickets anymore? That's why. The sharp-pencil boys look at the cost of building/operating/maintaining a major E, then measure how much profit can be made over it's lifespan. Spending $100-$200mil on a ride that won't pay for itself quickly is a risk they aren't willing to take these days, except for instances where that kind of outlay is needed to help rescue a park with issues (AK, DCA).
Compounding the problem are the many discounts, including Magic Your Way and dining. Think about it. Back in the day when Disney parks were a premium product and it seemed like a major new ride was always just around the corner, how were tickets being sold? I'll tell you how...full price. You want to go to the parks, you pay full price for your ticket. Buy a two or three day pass and you may save a couple of dollars. Could everyone afford to go, perhaps not. A Disney vacation was a luxury, something to be looked ahead to and saved for.
Now days, thanks to MYW, many guests are paying as low as $30 per day. A park full of guests paying that little is not making the money it used to. At that point management is just hoping that by getting the warm bodies into the park they will get some money off of food and merch, and not even hoping to generate enough profit to be able to justify building a big E. All it does is get butts in the seats and let's managament tell Wall St. that attendance is up. It's all smoke and mirrors.
If we want to get major new rides and other investments into the parks,either the current business model or all ticket discounting needs to go. Attendance will suffer in the short term, but will eventually rebound.

-Next, they need to cut the dining discounts. Like the cheap tickets, they are using it to get guests in the door, then making what profit they can by reducing the portion size, quality, and uniqueness of the meals. Makes the bottom line look good and perhaps lets a few guests who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford the high-priced meals find a spot at the table, but at the expense of the things I listed above: quality and uniqueness.
Even worse is taking a park's highest-end restaurant, dumbing down and limiting the menu, then raising the meal cost and demand by promising that a character will visit you at your table. Didn't used to be that way, and it was better.

-Hotels. Tough one. They have painted themseves into a corner. They need to charge a lot for the rooms in order to offset many of the other discounts. The best move may be to eliminate the room discountts, but return the rack rates to a reasonable level. Guests may pay a little more for their room, but in the long run, as with all the other discount eliminations, they will receive a better park experience from the increased revenue. Gonna take someone with a ton of bravery to start cutting those discounts. Could cause a revolt by guests who aren't looking at the big picture.

-While I am on the topic of hotels...they need to stop building them. Seriously. More rooms, at heavily discounted rates, is going to do nothing but make things worse. Yes you are getting bodies into the hotels, and by extension into the parks, but with the discounts you aren't really seeing a profit increase. All you get are crowded parks with long lines at the same old rides, and longer waits to get an overpriced meal at one of the restaurants that hasn't been closed for no reason (Pirate, Veranda, Terrace...)
Attendance goes up, capacity and guest satisfaction go down.

*sigh*
Enough of this. Sorry if none of it makes any sense. Way too early on a Saturday morning to rant about this stuff...:lol:

This is why you see a greater willingness to build DVC locations. They get a quicker return on their investment and fall under the category of Parks and Resorts to investors. Disney builds Bay Lake Tower, Kidani Village and the Aulani Resort, all of which are good things, but all of which pay for themselves quicker than Mission: SPACE.

Speaking of Mission: SPACE, part of me feels that Mission: SPACE contributed to the unwillingness to invest heavily in R&D. I think the thought process now is that innovation is dangerous, raising the bar is risky, and Disney cares more about appeasing stockholders than supplementing the quality product that the stockholders think they're buying.
 

tmack8983

Member
I'm closing in on 30 trips of 7+ days or more and I agree with what you are saying in spirit. The costs of staying onsite are great when you go for the first couple of times. You just can't beat the ambiance and the eye candy of the places.

But after a few trips, you being to realize that you are staying in an overdressed motel for the values and moderates at $200/night! Don't get me wrong the places are beautiful, but I'm in the parks all day and at the boardwalk or a park at night....I sleep and shower in the room...that's it! For $200/night? And then I think about the 10 days I stayed at WL and realized I spent $2700 to sleep. When I closed my eyes to go to sleep, the room looked just like when I was at Pop or POR. :ROFLOL:

Then add in the ever declining bus service. Every year, I say to myself, it seems the buses are worse than last year. And then it does. I don't think I've had a trip in the last 5 years that didn't have at least 1, if not 2, 45 minutes wait for a bus. Between the rising ticket costs, the crucified dining plan, and the exploding scooter population; I can't find anymore reason to stay on property. Every "plus" that you get from staying on property is negated by something else it seems.

I did a quote where I can stay at a 5 bedroom house from allstarvacationhomes.com where it was $1000 cheaper than getting 2 rooms at a moderate.....AND the house had 2 rental cars in the price!!! Plus, the house was closer to Animal Kingdom than any of the moderates were!!

It may be "resort pricing", but Disney needs to get their lodging prices under wraps if they want more to increase attendance. Giving a rack rate discount gets negated by the dining plan costs or if they give you "free" dining, the rack rates are high enough to almost wipe out any saving. The average American took a huge hit the last 2 years and simply don't have the money to stay anywhere but a Value and in a lot of cases, even that is 100% higher than a local Holiday Inn.

After the economy took a dump, WDW attendance was steady. But don't forget that so many of those trips were booked 1 or even 2 years out. So they were bought many moons ago and people went regardless. Now we are in the time frame where people would have booked a trip 1 or 2 years ago and would be going now...and they aren't. Well, duh!! Of course not! But don't worry, I'm sure the boys in marketing and finance have a great plan to get that fixed. Like fixing the abysmal safari ride in AK by making it a walking tour...with an added price of $100/head. :ROFLOL:
Wowwwww what more can i say, you coverd it all.I was on another post maybe a week back explaining the same thing you just did, but i got attacked by some disney resort die hards :lol: ,everybody thought i was crazy when i based the facts, and broke down how a disney deal was just an illusion. Im glad to see there's people on this site that think outside the box like myself.
 

MickeyPeace

Well-Known Member
Wow, so this is where the smart people on the boards hang out! I'm so glad to see the bus issue mentioned here intelligently. A couple weeks ago I was voicing my opinion on the horrible bus situation and what can be done about it.
I got attacked by several people here saying to shut up because it's free. And that I should hire a taxi or rent a car if I didn't like it. WDW is expensive enough, I don't need to spend extra money. They are offering the service so if it's not working right, fix it. Don't tell me to pay more to rent a car.
As I said then, the "free" bus service is part of a business plan to keep guests on property spending money. If everyone rented cars they might be more likely to drive right off property to Universal! Lets not even mention potential problems with drunk driving, congestion of WDW road, outside transportation businesses coming in to provide services, etc.
The largest turn offs for me about returning to WDW are horrible bus service, scooters multiplying faster than rabbits, and Vinylmation and pins everywhere. I LOVE Disney. I still love going there. However these things that are annoying but manageable now may turn into the straw that breaks the camels back next time I'm booking my vacation. Kind of like that toothpaste cap that is slightly annoying at the beginning of the relationship and ends up destroying it.
Disney fix these problems! Fix the damn bus service! Read Lee's post and consider what he is saying about a sound business plan! Give WDW some real care and attention. We are all starting to feel like the Orlando park is not getting what it needs. I do not have low expectations and for those who do here, I will not shut up. Ever.
 

Mr Bill

Well-Known Member
Disney stock closed up over 5% today.
That's a MASSIVE one day move for a megacap like Disney.
Especially considering it's recent upward climb.

Fanboys may not approve of Disney Management, but stockholders like myself are pretty stoked.

Keep it up IGER!!!:sohappy:
Falling 3% the day before surely helped as well
 

JimboJones123

Well-Known Member
It has very little to do with Harry Potter. As others have said, if anything, Harry Potter is a boost to Disney as well. Not many people fly to Florida just to do Universal, and skip Disney.

This is a very incorrect assumption. Young adults and older families are flocking to a Universal only vacation like never before. There is finally a reason to make the expense of flying or driving to Central Florida beyond Disney being worth it. I knew several families taking a day or three away from a beach holiday to visit HP instead of Disney. I also know a few families going this winter for a Universal only long weekend.

Just because us fans of Disney wouldn't dream of a nonDisney Florida vacation doesn't mean that the rest of the world wants Disney.

In fact, less than 5% of Americans will visit WDW this year. Nearly 2x the number of Americans will go see HP 7.1 the opening weekend. Ignoring and scoffing the amazing product they have put together will make Disney look foolish. They are not the only big fish in the pond anymore.
 

toolsnspools

Well-Known Member
Lee - As usual, you hit the nail on the head with a lot of good points. Nice post.

Something I had known all along, but really noticed on our last trip. They are declining the experience of the average guest so they can make a buck on specials like Dessert with your fireworks, and Halloween and Christmas Parties. I was there in Oct when I realized how much this impacts the "regular" experience. The attendance was low. That is why I pulled the kids out of school to be there that time of year. Because they had roped off all the best places to watch Illuminations, those not paying extra had to pack into the remaining spaces. Didn't ruin the trip, but put a negative spin on an otherwise good day. Same with MK. They were closing at 7pm 4 nights that week for parties, so the one night that still had fireworks for "regular" guests was packed. I don't expect them to have an empty park for me, but when attendance it artificially higher based on the parties, it takes away from my overall experience. Seems like all the new things that are being added to the parks come with an additional cost. Don't get me wrong, but I see the Jungle Trek they're building and it looks cool, but if you think I'm dropping $500 for my family of 5 to take a 2 hour walk, you're crazy. Especially if I already dropped $1800 on APs so I could see the same animals from the Safari truck.

I have used the DDP a few times, and I like the convenience of being able to "package" my food costs into the overall vacation price. It was never a great deal, but at least I didn't have to deal with sticker shock at every meal. Looking at the way they have watered down the food offerings though makes me think twice about using it again. Used to be you got a good meal at a good restaurant at an expectedly high Disney price. Now you get an average meal at an artificially packed restaurant, at the same high price.

My last rant will be about the merchandise. Other than Duffy, who I'm convinced is nothing more than an obvious attempt to sell merchandise to young kids, my kids didn't really beg me for anything. It was only my youngest child that wanted the Duffy stuff. (BTW - I haven't seen Duffy since we got home, so there's no chance we'll ever buy more of his stuff.) Why? Because it was the same stuff everywhere. There was nothing there that wasn't available in almost every store, and NO unique merchandise. Same guns at Pirates that were in Frontierland and Indiana Jones, same pins at every pin cart and store, same t-s in every store, same this, same that, same thing, same everywhere. They didn't even notice the stuff enough to bother begging for it. When a Dad takes a solo trip (DW stayed home) with his 3 kids, and they find less than $100 of merchandise to buy. You have a problem with what you're offering. The one thing we did buy, T-Shirts at Design-a-T in DTD. Why? Because we could make them unique to the trip, so it was something we could take home and it would help us remember this trip for a long time.

Our next trip, we won't be going to WDW. We'll be cruising with DCL so we get something new from the vacation. After that, we're planning to visit the Uni parks, and that will be in 2012 after FLE is partly open. Let's hope they have something better to offer in 2013.
 

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