Attendance drop in the parks... I wonder why

[xdan0920]

It's a good thing we now have the insight necessary to succeed in life. And here I've been living under the motto of "get less money and spend more of it" all these years! And in that spirit the check is in the mail to Dan the Man.

Yep. You had it backwards. Time to turn it around and secure your financial freedom.

Uh.

After you cut that check of course. Then turn it around!

 

[Dad 2 M & M]

By 'quality degree', you're not referring to history or the social sciences, right?

Economics is a social science....it measures and explains the phenomena being discussed in the last two pages - the middle class and how that is defined (including hallmarks like a yearly vacation), income inequality, social mobility, affordability (as a function of income and related to utility), normal goods and luxury goods (ie WDW vacation), pricing strategy and analysis, etc. Across countries (or other geographically defined areas). Economic geography can even explain the dearth of fresh produce options near WDW.

And the next time you see someone complaining about high prices at WDW, just chalk it up to 'diminishing marginal utility' - no cynical judgment or drama necessary. Quite often the complaints here are 1. a symptom of Disney implementing a pricing strategy to appeal to the 'luxury' consumer market (growing since the 2008 recession), vs. the middle-income 'normal' consumer market (that has historically been WDW's core demographic). 2. a reaction to paying more for the same product (or lesser, depending on one's perspective or frequency of visits.....consumers, especially tourists, tend to not like a downgrade in the experience if they are still paying as much as or more for it...they just go elsewhere).

Well done......diminished marginal utility or the the price elasticity of demand.....either way, many of those who wanted to see reduced crowds now are complaining about being priced out of the equation. As far as going elsewhere, what is the substitute? Universal, or just doing without?


Again, well done.............

 

[pax_65]

I'm saying I'm sick of hearing people complain about Disney prices and playing the victim when a for profit company tries to make money by selling their product.

Well I agree with this. I don't really blame Disney for milking $$$ out of people. I blame the people for allowing themselves to get milked.

For me it becomes a matter of principle too, not just a question of whether I can afford Disney or not. When I feel like I'm being taken advantage of, it irks me. Disney knows I'm a DVC member, frequent annual passholder, and very frequent visitor. So instead of really catering to me and making sure I'm satisfied, they decide to try to take as much money as they can out of me because they're confident I won't turn away.

And they might be right about millions of other Disney fanatics, but they're wrong about. me.

I know... one less person in front of you in line. Enjoy my absence.

 

[L.C. Clench]

It is interesting that the solution to higher costs is for people to make more money while touting a company for their ability to turn a profit on the backs of employees who don't earn a livable wage.

 

[SorcererMC]

Well done......diminished marginal utility or the the price elasticity of demand.....either way, many of those who wanted to see reduced crowds now are complaining about being priced out of the equation. As far as going elsewhere, what is the substitute? Universal, or just doing without?


Again, well done.............

WDW is relatively inelastic (as a unique destination); their dynamic pricing model would take into account several demand elasticities for different consumer segments. For example, domestic demand would vary according to per capita income, gas prices, airfare, distance travelled, price/level of hotel accommodation, length of stay, etc. In general, one demand model estimated that for every 5% increase in ticket price, Disney would lose 2% of their consumers (if I remember correctly).

Universal is both a complementary good and a substitute good - many families who go to WDW also go to Universal and vice versa. Again it depends on consumer preferences; WDW is being established as an international travel destination, which is a very competitive market. Domestically, WDW/ Orlando would be competing with other major cities like San Francisco or other CA cities, Washington DC, and the Natl Parks, etc.

 

[Goofyernmost]

I've spent a fair bit of time reading this thread the past week and until the last few pages one thing really stood out for me, quite a few posters who feel they don't get a good ROI on WDW trip. This in and of itself is not unusual here and that's fine, but it seemed odd to me that there was a rather vocal handful who joined this forum in the past 6 months or so. Just struck me as odd that one(or three) would feel this way and join the forum after coming to this conclusion. I fully understand those who were already active here when they came to that conclusion.

In regards to the last page or two, while I'm sure you all will continue to ridicule @Chef Mickey and do the internet forum comedy routine, sure the tone of the Chefs posts can be a bit harsh but their is truth there IMO. Too many people in our society spend lots of money on things with very little actual value on a daily basis while complaining how they can't afford the things they really need or want. It may be on way overpriced coffee or fast food. lottery tickets, beer, movies, video games or any number of other things all of which are fine for a occasional splurge but many people waste their money on these things daily. They have no real desire to save money and continue to live paycheck to paycheck while paying lots of interest on their credit cards.

I have to say that highlighted sentence has me confused. Is Disney something they need? Or is it something they want? Seems to me that all those unnecessary "other" things you speak of must fall under the heading of "want" So if they want that stuff and don't need it why would that be any different then a Disney vacation. If they can spend money on those other things why can't they just spend it on Disney. Apparently they don't want the Disney stuff as much as the other stuff. If it is because they don't want to work, which is such a gigantic exaggeration that it is almost hard to type, then they must not really want to go to Disney because it would require them to work. I don't think they are complaining. Even the ones that are complaining the most, are complaining because it cost them a lot of money, they pay it, but, complain that it cost too much. Just a vicious circle isn't it.

I always felt that I could have been an obnoxious rich man if only my Father had been rich and left me a fortune. I blame him and instruct my children to blame him as well, for the fact that they aren't rich. If he had just gotten off his lazy butt and worked 22 hours a day, we would be sitting pretty right now. Damn him!

 

[21stamps]

I am just so optimistic about what America offers, I simply can't see roadblocks for many people who complain. I just don't want to hear it. I have very close knowledge to what it's like to come from a place with nothing and have to make it in America. This slants my view, but also gives me a broader world view.

What you wrote here is massively important.
I understand your frustration in that regards. I truly do. So many people complain when they don't even realize how lucky we are. I have watched so many people come from other countries, bust their bums making close to minimum wage 70 hours per week..for a few years... Now, these people own their own business, they don't work 70 hours per week unless they choose to, they aren't saving every last dime. They came here for the American dream, and they got it. Not because of "luck" or "being blessed" or "fortunate", or any other word that I see/hear way too many times. They got it for 3 reason- 1. Set a goal. 2. Worked for that goal. 3. Never gave up.
It's all around us, people coming from other places who become entrepreneurs or successful in whatever career they chose. Some started with nothing, some came here for college...but they all come for the American Dream. It exists. You just have to stop making excuses and work for it.

I do wish that you only would have said the part that I quoted in your post. Unfortunately I think people missed it.

I've spent a fair bit of time reading this thread the past week and until the last few pages one thing really stood out for me, quite a few posters who feel they don't get a good ROI on WDW trip. This in and of itself is not unusual here and that's fine, but it seemed odd to me that there was a rather vocal handful who joined this forum in the past 6 months or so. Just struck me as odd that one(or three) would feel this way and join the forum after coming to this conclusion. I fully understand those who were already active here when they came to that conclusion.

In regards to the last page or two, while I'm sure you all will continue to ridicule @Chef Mickey and do the internet forum comedy routine, sure the tone of the Chefs posts can be a bit harsh but their is truth there IMO. Too many people in our society spend lots of money on things with very little actual value on a daily basis while complaining how they can't afford the things they really need or want. It may be on way overpriced coffee or fast food. lottery tickets, beer, movies, video games or any number of other things all of which are fine for a occasional splurge but many people waste their money on these things daily. They have no real desire to save money and continue to live paycheck to paycheck while paying lots of interest on their credit cards.

Yeah. I'm still trying to figure that out. A little more than a handful of people all very recently joined..not to plan a trip, just to complain about Disney and why they no longer visit. Odd, but different strokes and all I guess. On the ROI thing- using the term ROI when talking about a Vacation makes me cringe every single time I read it. It will never make sense to me. Is it a Disney forum thing?

Back on topic ,
I read on a Disney FB group that someone gave up eating more than 1 meal a day to save for Disney. I had to read it 3 times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Disney isn't that important. It just isn't.
I read posts here that talk about how much exact money for a tip budget. People say "if you can afford it" - this drives me nuts. Just bc you can doesn't mean you should.

If Disney is a financial strain- Don't go. There's plenty of other things to do and have a wonderful time while there.
If you have outgrown, or grown tired, or fundamentally disagree with a company- Don't go. Why give them your money? Go somewhere else and stop obsessing over a vacation destination that you no longer visit.. OR still visit but don't enjoy. Spend the money on a place that you will enjoy!
There's nothing wrong with either of those scenarios.

 

[jakeman]

I read this and thought I had your system down. I then read more of this informative thread and realized I was confused. Should I spend more money on produce? Should I buy processed food and sell it? Maybe I should make financial deals while waiting in queues? Anyway, can you put together a series of DVDs or infomercials that I can watch before purchasing your financial product? THANKS!!!

Two words:

Zebra Breeding

 

[larryz]

I've spent a fair bit of time reading this thread the past week and until the last few pages one thing really stood out for me, quite a few posters who feel they don't get a good ROI on WDW trip. This in and of itself is not unusual here and that's fine, but it seemed odd to me that there was a rather vocal handful who joined this forum in the past 6 months or so. Just struck me as odd that one(or three) would feel this way and join the forum after coming to this conclusion. I fully understand those who were already active here when they came to that conclusion.

In regards to the last page or two, while I'm sure you all will continue to ridicule @Chef Mickey and do the internet forum comedy routine, sure the tone of the Chefs posts can be a bit harsh but their is truth there IMO. Too many people in our society spend lots of money on things with very little actual value on a daily basis while complaining how they can't afford the things they really need or want. It may be on way overpriced coffee or fast food. lottery tickets, beer, movies, video games or any number of other things all of which are fine for a occasional splurge but many people waste their money on these things daily. They have no real desire to save money and continue to live paycheck to paycheck while paying lots of interest on their credit cards.

Bottom line, just about anybody can fit a Disney trip into their bottom line. There are those who can do it every month, those who can go once a year, and those who can go only once or twice a decade. You can go whole hog, or you can take the hot dogs and chips route. (no, please, no comparisons to hot dogs and hogs) You can stay on site or sleep in your van at the Wally-World.

If there's a will, there's a way... especially if it was your rich uncle's will in which you were named as primary beneficiary.

 

[Siren]

Nice. Here we go again beating up on the poor. It's totally classless. I think it stems from the working class who have come into new money -- but it's still a crabs in the barrel mentality to me.

The truly wealthy -- well, old money -- understands that in order for capitalism to endure -- the poor must be subsidized. These subsidies are otherwise known as concessions.

The biggest benefactors of welfare are corporations with Walmart and McDonalds being among the largest. Regardless of what idealism some of you have because you think you've made it.

There is not enough room at the top. We all can't be doctors and lawyers and millionaires. Somebody has to work these low waged jobs.

Prisons are a billion dollar industry. Someone has to fill these prisions -- being a convict or prisoner is an occupation - hence the preschool to prison pipeline.

But, the working poor, middle class and new money folk rather beat up on the poor mom getting fifty dollars for week in foods stamps like it's a luxury or something. It's disgusting to me.

Without the poor, Capitalism as we know it would buckle and there would be a Marie Antoinette style revolution.

So, instead of beating up on the poor, have some compassion -- volunteer and give back. They don't need your judgement and frankly you should be thanking them.

America's capitalism is ugly and trickle down economics have only benefited the uber wealthy not the upper classes.

Ideally, the Nordic countries model of capitalism would benefit everyone. And, this what we should be striving toward instead of kicking those who are already down.

Oh, and it is definitely more expensive to eat healthy. http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/12/e004277.full?sid=820d6e1a-280e-47a6-b8c5-498bfa4657e3

 

[Mrhappyplace]

I have to say that highlighted sentence has me confused. Is Disney something they need? Or is it something they want?

Honestly Disney (specifically) doesn't even factor in for most of the people like this that I know. But they do complain about not being able to afford to go on any vacation.

On the ROI thing- using the term ROI when talking about a Vacation makes me cringe every single time I read it. It will never make sense to me. Is it a Disney forum thing?

I only used it because others had earlier in the thread, personally I'd usually say value for your money or something like that.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Honestly Disney (specifically) doesn't even factor in for most of the people like this that I know. But they do complain about not being able to afford to go on any vacation.

With that I agree, but, it is more a venting of a much larger problem. There are thousands of things that can fit in the end of the sentence... I can't afford to buy ....... or go to ...........! We all want to be able to do what the richest of the rich can do. Just yesterday I was watching this car auction on TV were somebody purchased a 1957 Chevrolet for a mere $140,000.00. A car that sold new for less then 2K. Very few of us could afford to do that, doesn't mean we wouldn't like to and probably would complain that we couldn't.

In other words it is a silly discussion with no point other then to say that this is what life is like. I remember when what we currently call 401K's started to be introduced. We had a meeting at work where salesperson told us all that if we were under the age of 35 and started putting money in now, by the time we retired we would all be millionaires. I asked the question, "if we are all millionaires, wouldn't a loaf of bread cost about 100 grand? He didn't know. It's just the way that we have to be unless we lived in Saudi Arabia and shared the wealth in a "socialist" kind of way.

When I first went to WDW in 1983 a three day park hopper costs $33.00. For the four of us that was $132.00. Do you have any idea how long it took to put aside enough money to make that trip? What it costs now is pretty close to in line with what it was then because of increased earnings over the years. It was difficult to come up with the money then and it still is for many people. Just because most of the people that post didn't experience it back then, didn't know that earning 10K per year was rich mans territory, do not understand it. There has never been a time when everyone one could afford to go to Disney, not even on Walt's opening day.

 

[Ralphlaw]

Yeah, people just think you're being cynical if you point out the realities of financial misery. Most of the time, the remedy is to get your income up and your expenses down. This starts by getting a quality degree, a quality job, and doing without a few things. Make it happen...no excuses.

In my late teens and early twenties, it was definitely irksome to see people who got jobs right out of high school with new cars and a bunch of spending money. Meanwhile, I suffered through mac & cheese, jerky roommates, arrogant professors, and the doom of student loans. But I was having fun, pursuing a music degree, spending a semester in England, driving a beater, and having virtually zero real worries in life. Summers were miserable with factory jobs at barely minimum wage, but I knew in the end that I would be doing better than the people who started a "career" directly out of high school.

Eventually my practical side took over, fulfilling a Business Minor and taking every pre-law class I could squeeze into my 19 credit semesters (while working part-time and heading up the campus literary magazine). Graduation happened after 5 years and 174 credits with a worthless degree in music, but then 3 more years of student life in law school which put off my first real job until I was 26. Today, things are pretty good.

It was all worth it. I have one "quality degree", one quality business minor, and abundant color in my memories and current life from the trip to England, my music degree, and my literary delvings. My son starts college next year, and he's focusing on Computer Engineering--very much a quality degree. Why? Because it will lead to a job. I am encouraging him to spend some time studying abroad, and even taking an extra college year to fulfill a minor or two and to have some enriching experiences while getting that quality degree.

A quality degree is easy to define: A good job is at the end of it. You're not living in your parents' basement, you're not mooching off a girlfriend/boyfriend, you're not couch-surfing, and you can land back on your feet if you're downsized, outsized, outsourced, laid off, or otherwise fired. Such are the people, I presume, that Disney is targeting: Educated, comfortable, and appreciative of the subtleties in life. They can afford the prices, and they make the most of it all when they're there. Some of you may hate them, but look to yourself and your own choices before you allow the hate to fester. To quote my friend: "No excuses." Excuse-makers rarely flourish, and colleges love older students who start getting degrees later in life.

 

[Otterhead]

A quality degree is easy to define: A good job is at the end of it.

A "quality degree" costs many tens of thousands of dollars to obtain. I know people who've been in debt for a decade, paying off their degree. And depending on what your degree is in, the idea that there's a good job at the end of it is sadly not remotely guaranteed.

I was able to get a degree in a specialized field and get work right out of college, but these days, college is so astoundingly expensive that a four-year degree is out of reach for a great number of people. I have plenty of friends with BAs and BSs who work a steady series of temp jobs, constantly trying to find work in extremely competitive fields. They're working full-time while also trying to find permanent work and pay off student loans, and often also supporting a family. Those people aren't being lazy, they aren't living in their parents' basement. Spending many thousands of dollars to go to Disney, or Paris, or anywhere is the least of their concerns.

 

[Ralphlaw]

A "quality degree" costs many tens of thousands of dollars to obtain. I know people who've been in debt for a decade, paying off their degree. And depending on what your degree is in, the idea that there's a good job at the end of it is sadly not remotely guaranteed.

I was able to get a degree in a specialized field and get work right out of college, but these days, college is so astoundingly expensive that a four-year degree is out of reach for a great number of people. I have plenty of friends with BAs and BSs who work a steady series of temp jobs, constantly trying to find work in extremely competitive fields. They're working full-time while also trying to find permanent work and pay off student loans, and often also supporting a family. Those people aren't being lazy, they aren't living in their parents' basement. Spending many thousands of dollars to go to Disney, or Paris, or anywhere is the least of their concerns.

Google "Best jobs", and you'll have a good idea about what a quality degree is. Yup, college is ridiculously expensive, but my son is going to a state school that runs about $16,000 per year for tuition room and board. I invested when he was still in diapers, and, together with work-study, scholarships, financial aid, etc . . . , we'll get it done. It's too bad that so many people don't have those options.

 

[Chef Mickey]

That's great until the multi billion dollar company you work for decides you can be replaced by cheaper foreign workers through a contract agency so they can cut salaries and not offer benefits to the new "employees". Then you get the pleasure of entering the worst job market in a long time to find out that experience now means expensive and you're too qualified for jobs. Then you really get to learn to live without a few things while your quality degree gathers dust and you hope your local temp agency can find a quality long term assignment.

Work can be competitive, but there are always alternatives. I welcome competition from our foreign friends and am confident my skills cannot be replaced so easily.

 

[Chef Mickey]

What you wrote here is massively important.
I understand your frustration in that regards. I truly do. So many people complain when they don't even realize how lucky we are. I have watched so many people come from other countries, bust their bums making close to minimum wage 70 hours per week..for a few years... Now, these people own their own business, they don't work 70 hours per week unless they choose to, they aren't saving every last dime. They came here for the American dream, and they got it. Not because of "luck" or "being blessed" or "fortunate", or any other word that I see/hear way too many times. They got it for 3 reason- 1. Set a goal. 2. Worked for that goal. 3. Never gave up.
It's all around us, people coming from other places who become entrepreneurs or successful in whatever career they chose. Some started with nothing, some came here for college...but they all come for the American Dream. It exists. You just have to stop making excuses and work for it.

I do wish that you only would have said the part that I quoted in your post. Unfortunately I think people missed it.

I appreciate you reading it thoroughly because I think the portion you quoted makes my standpoint pretty clear (I probably jumbled up too many other thoughts that made people hate me).

I wish I could like your post 100 times.

I have a friend from Mexico. You know what he does for a living? Roofing. In Texas. He is part owner of his company, but he actually does the work as well. He roofs 6 days/week and does some of the biz stuff on his "off" day. He hauls shingles up and down rich peoples' houses during 105 degree summer heat. He doesn't complain and says he's lucky to even have the opportunity to work. In Mexico, he said he'd probably be on the streets or tangled up in crime. How many Americans do you think would be lining up to roof in the Texas heat? I know that's anecdotal and I don't have the answer, but I know some people are more willing to work than others.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

I appreciate you reading it thoroughly because I think the portion you quoted makes my standpoint pretty clear (I probably jumbled up too many other thoughts that made people hate me).

I wish I could like your post 100 times.

I have a friend from Mexico. You know what he does for a living? Roofing. In Texas. He is part owner of his company, but he actually does the work as well. He roofs 6 days/week and does some of the biz stuff on his "off" day. He hauls shingles up and down rich peoples' houses during 105 degree summer heat. He doesn't complain and says he's lucky to even have the opportunity to work. In Mexico, he said he'd probably be on the streets or tangled up in crime. How many Americans do you think would be lining up to roof in the Texas heat? I know that's anecdotal and I don't have the answer, but I know some people are more willing to work than others.

If that Mexican guy would just pull himself up by his boot straps, he's could take the whole family to WDW 3-4 times a year.

And I could have died from a heart attack from not surprised that you are from Texas.

 

[Chef Mickey]

It is interesting that the solution to higher costs is for people to make more money while touting a company for their ability to turn a profit on the backs of employees who don't earn a livable wage.

Ah, yes...the classic "livable" wage argument. Like McDonalds, Walmart, Costco, Starbucks, Disney is not meant to be permanent employment for many people. You work at Disney as a student, retired person, or someone looking for a job with decent benefits to get back on your feet. Disney offers flexible hours, part time employment, and a multitude of tasks to bolster your resume as you seek permanent employment (i.e. your big boy job).

And by the way, there is nothing wrong with a person making a life working at Disney. Just don't start talking about how Disney doesn't pay its employees enough. They pay what the market supports and there are people lining up to put on those costumes and tell guests to have a magial day. You know why? Because it's great experience at one of the world's best companies. I would have LOVED to work there for FREE as a student. You should jump at a chance to learn from a great company, McDonalds and the others I mentioned included.

Disney's biggest cost at the parks is labor and paying everyone some arbitrary wage that's way above those job's skillset would just increase prices and have people like you whining about how expensive it is.

 

[Santa Raccoon 77]

If that Mexican guy would just pull himself up by his boot straps, he's could take the whole family to WDW 3-4 times a year.

Just needs to "earn more and spend less"