Attendance drop in the parks... I wonder why

[Chef Mickey]

I am 34 and live in Bergen County, NJ. So, a little more specific then your answer of "young and a big city".

Yes your age matters, the older you get, the more experiences you accrue, and the less likely you are to make a judgement based on theory. When I was 22, I was an absolutely insufferable moron. I had a lot of the exact same idealistic leanings that you seem to have. Life's experiences have disabused me of those ideals. Life is complicated. Sometimes ye olde bootstraps aren't enough to lift you into the upper middle class and above. Even though, "TRY HARDER" is a key to making your life better, sometimes it's not enough.

Eating healthy is MUCH harder then you are making it sound. Sure, we could all load up on Bananas and save a bundle, but how realistic is that? Where I live, Chicken breast runs about $7lb. Milk runs about $3.50 a gallon, Grapes are around $3lb. I eat healthy, and I know for a fact it's costing me more now, then it was when I was less scrupulous with my diet. Anyway, eating healthy isn't cheaper. At best, it's a wash.


ps. For what it's worth, my bootstraps, combined with my wife's bootstraps, coupled with some luck, were enough to pull us into a comfortable life.

You make it sound like you're some Yoda...you're 34. You're essentially me in the North East. I am smarter than I was 10 years ago too and I'll probably be still smarter in another 10, but my basic principles don't change much with more knowledge.

If it's a "wash" to eat healthy, well might as well do that, right?

You have no idea waht I've been through and I don't know what you've been through. What I do know is almost 50% of Americans pay no income tax and the average CC debt is around $30k. Real unemployment is probably close to 30%. I see what I go through on a daily basis and feel perfectly equipped to criticize others in a general sense. Everyone has their own bag to carry around, but the averages speak to some truth. People can do better and many of them choose not to do so with many, many more tools than other more resourceful people in other less advantageous places in the world.

 

[Chef Mickey]

FWIW, I think a lot of what you're saying is true, and a lot of other people here probably agree with it as well. The first comment just came off rude, I don't think you meant it to sound the way it did.
There are poor people who do want (and are trying to get) a better life, there are also poor people who cheat the system and blow their money away on junk.
You then have middle class people who don't invest, don't plan, spend all of their money on frivolous things as well. On the flip side you have plenty of middle class people who do plan and save.
I don't think there is one blanket statement that can cover them all.
Where I agree with you, is that statistically, lower income people do tend to eat fast food..spend money on flashy items they shouldn't afford, etc etc., which definitely hurts them in the long run. That part is self inflicted. The sad thing is- it's probably a cycle and no one taught them any differently. So we can't really call them stupid, they're just ignorant. That's where outreach programs and mentoring should come into play...these programs benefit the people they are serving, and by extension, all Americans. They need help in the form of guidance, not just checks.
Then again, you have people in that same economic class who take a bus everyday to work, day in, day out, year after year. They may not take Disney vacations, but they make the best of what they have and are probably relatively happy. Maybe even more so than those of us who are always trying to reach that next goal, while our kids are at a sports practice, game, play, etc, and we're at work.

I agree 100% with the Warren Buffett comment.

Thank you. I agree with you in general as well. Blanket statements are not by definition fair. However, I really can't make a point on specific people. I stand by what I said in general. It's no secret Americans have a spending problem, a saving problem, and many have a working problem. Entitlements are out of control. You're right...these people aren't stupid, just ignorant. Still, you can objectively look at your situation and think, what can I do about this?

I fully admit I'm not a super "nice" person when it comes to certain things, but I am generally respected here (for some of my content) and in real life for my opinion and knowledge on certain subjects. I think people get upset by my delivery at times, which is my fault, but mostly it's people that just don't like hearing that they aren't good enough. It's always circumstances or someone's fault. I just want people to look in the mirror. I've had to.

I am just so optimistic about what America offers, I simply can't see roadblocks for many people who complain. I just don't want to hear it. I have very close knowledge to what it's like to come from a place with nothing and have to make it in America. This slants my view, but also gives me a broader world view.

 

[Chef Mickey]

You might want to put your shovel down.

Sorry, I can't.

 

[pax_65]

It's no secret Americans have a spending problem, a saving problem, and many have a working problem.

I agree with some of your points but I'm unclear on your overall point in relation to WDW. Are you saying people would be better able to afford Disney if they made better financial choices? I think going to Disney is in itself a bad financial decision for many people.

A friend of mine told me that he was planning a Disney trip and wanted to get my input because I've been to WDW dozens of times. So I'm telling him where to stay, where to dine, what are the "must do" attractions and such. I was telling him about the Disney Visa as a way to earn some points to use as extra spending money on the trip. He asked, "Can I earn points by transferring my balance to that card?" I told him that if he carries a credit card balance he should forget going to WDW and pay off his credit card first. (He went anyway.)

The reality for many people is that doing a Disney trip contributes to their financial problems. It would be better to view a WDW trip as a luxury (which it is, especially these days). There's nothing wrong with you if you can't afford to visit every year. Many people can't - and some of the people who do visit frequently probably shouldn't. Especially if they carry credit card debt and aren't saving considerably for retirement and college.

To tie this back in to the subject... if you're not awash in cash you need to make good financial decisions including where you choose to vacation. With price increases, dining cost increases, reduced hours, fewer EMHs, less live entertainment, no evening parade in MK, etc. Disney does not offer the same value as it did in the past. So it makes sense that people would not visit as frequently as in the past.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Not true. It doubled the size of Fantasyland. That's... significant.
.

Yes, it doubled the physical size of Fantasyland. It did not double the amount of attractions in Fantasyland...there's a big difference between the two.

 

[larryz]

Somewhat on point, personally I struggled to find any food I would possibly put in my mouth in Orlando. I stayed at Int. Drive near UNI, seeking to stock up my fridge a bit with some breakfast and late night items. But what little healthy options there were, were grossly overpriced. $2 bananas and the like, hidden behind ailes of junk food. I checked the Walgreen's and a handful of non-chain supermarkets.

Healthy, unprocessed, affordable options were almost non-existent.

You couldn't find a Publix or Winn-Dixie nearby?

ETA: I see you've been advised on Publix...

 

[Disneyhead'71]

Thank you. I agree with you in general as well. Blanket statements are not by definition fair. However, I really can't make a point on specific people. I stand by what I said in general. It's no secret Americans have a spending problem, a saving problem, and many have a working problem. Entitlements are out of control. You're right...these people aren't stupid, just ignorant. Still, you can objectively look at your situation and think, what can I do about this?

I fully admit I'm not a super "nice" person when it comes to certain things, but I am generally respected here (for some of my content) and in real life for my opinion and knowledge on certain subjects. I think people get upset by my delivery at times, which is my fault, but mostly it's people that just don't like hearing that they aren't good enough. It's always circumstances or someone's fault. I just want people to look in the mirror. I've had to.

I am just so optimistic about what America offers, I simply can't see roadblocks for many people who complain. I just don't want to hear it. I have very close knowledge to what it's like to come from a place with nothing and have to make it in America. This slants my view, but also gives me a broader world view.

You are stunningly ignorant. And your arrogance makes you that much more delightful.

 

[jakeman]

...I am generally respected here (for some of my content) and in real life for my opinion and knowledge on certain subjects.

 

[Ralphlaw]

Thank you. I agree with you in general as well. Blanket statements are not by definition fair.

I am just so optimistic about what America offers, I simply can't see roadblocks for many people who complain. I just don't want to hear it. I have very close knowledge to what it's like to come from a place with nothing and have to make it in America. This slants my view, but also gives me a broader world view.

Agreed. My wife and I adopted a little girl from Guatemala, and it really came home to me how few opportunities people in some other countries have. Entrenched poverty, all family connections, bribery, theft, violence, and being a female down there makes it all so much worse. We went to a restaurant where the business and government bigwigs sat down for their 2 hour lunches while super-intelligent waiters served them. Our social worker pointed to one of the waiters and said, "Look, that waiter is smarter than anyone he's serving. In America, he could be a brain surgeon. But here, he's stuck being a waiter."

That hit home. America is the greatest country the world has ever seen. Yet huge chunks of the population are trying to get on disability, and jobs are left unfilled. Free multi-million dollar schools are unappreciated despite buses and dozens of other opportunities that are ignored because so many people can't get their butts out of bed in the morning. Why do so many able-bodied young men not work, yet their "baby-mamas" are working two jobs? The reasons from my point of view: Pot, self-centeredness, enabling women and families, and lack of fear.

And we're a long ways from crowds in the parks.

 

[Chef Mickey]

I never said I was humble.

 

[Chef Mickey]

I agree with some of your points but I'm unclear on your overall point in relation to WDW. Are you saying people would be better able to afford Disney if they made better financial choices? I think going to Disney is in itself a bad financial decision for many people.

A friend of mine told me that he was planning a Disney trip and wanted to get my input because I've been to WDW dozens of times. So I'm telling him where to stay, where to dine, what are the "must do" attractions and such. I was telling him about the Disney Visa as a way to earn some points to use as extra spending money on the trip. He asked, "Can I earn points by transferring my balance to that card?" I told him that if he carries a credit card balance he should forget going to WDW and pay off his credit card first. (He went anyway.)

The reality for many people is that doing a Disney trip contributes to their financial problems. It would be better to view a WDW trip as a luxury (which it is, especially these days). There's nothing wrong with you if you can't afford to visit every year. Many people can't - and some of the people who do visit frequently probably shouldn't. Especially if they carry credit card debt and aren't saving considerably for retirement and college.

To tie this back in to the subject... if you're not awash in cash you need to make good financial decisions including where you choose to vacation. With price increases, dining cost increases, reduced hours, fewer EMHs, less live entertainment, no evening parade in MK, etc. Disney does not offer the same value as it did in the past. So it makes sense that people would not visit as frequently as in the past.

I'm saying I'm sick of hearing people complain about Disney prices and playing the victim when a for profit company tries to make money by selling their product.

I'm also saying people could afford a lot more (Disney included) if they bettered themselves and their situation in the greatest land in the world, offering the most opportunity.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Agreed. My wife and I adopted a little girl from Guatemala, and it really came home to me how few opportunities people in some other countries have. Entrenched poverty, all family connections, bribery, theft, violence, and being a female down there makes it all so much worse. We went to a restaurant where the business and government bigwigs sat down for their 2 hour lunches while super-intelligent waiters served them. Our social worker pointed to one of the waiters and said, "Look, that waiter is smarter than anyone he's serving. In America, he could be a brain surgeon. But here, he's stuck being a waiter."

That hit home. America is the greatest country the world has ever seen. Yet huge chunks of the population are trying to get on disability, and jobs are left unfilled. Free multi-million dollar schools are unappreciated despite buses and a dozens of other opportunities are ignored because so many people can't get their butts out of bed in the morning. Why do so many able-bodied young men not work, yet their "baby-mamas" are working two jobs?

And we're a long ways from crowds in the parks.

Yeah, people just think you're being cynical if you point out the realities of financial misery. Most of the time, the remedy is to get your income up and your expenses down. This starts by getting a quality degree, a quality job, and doing without a few things. Make it happen...no excuses.

 

[L.C. Clench]

Yeah, people just think you're being cynical if you point out the realities of financial misery. Most of the time, the remedy is to get your income up and your expenses down. This starts by getting a quality degree, a quality job, and doing without a few things. Make it happen...no excuses.

That's great until the multi billion dollar company you work for decides you can be replaced by cheaper foreign workers through a contract agency so they can cut salaries and not offer benefits to the new "employees". Then you get the pleasure of entering the worst job market in a long time to find out that experience now means expensive and you're too qualified for jobs. Then you really get to learn to live without a few things while your quality degree gathers dust and you hope your local temp agency can find a quality long term assignment.

 

[xdan0920]

Most of the time, the remedy is to get your income up and your expenses down.

I hope your chosen field is in the financial industry. Specifically a financial advisor? Because that is some top notch advice. Why didn't I think of that? Guys. Everyone, gather round, I have some advice that's gonna melt your brain....

Get more money!!!! Spend less money!!!! Boom, problem solved. Checks payable to Dan the Man, Money Planner MD.

 

[xdan0920]

That's great until the multi billion dollar company you work for decides you can be replaced by cheaper foreign workers through a contract agency so they can cut salaries and not offer benefits to the new "employees". Then you get the pleasure of entering the worst job market in a long time to find out that experience now means expensive and you're too qualified for jobs. Then you really get to learn to live without a few things while your quality degree gathers dust and you hope your local temp agency can find a quality long term assignment.

Nah. You're making excuses. Grab those bootstraps and pull yourself up.

ps. For financial advise, come see Dan the Man, MPMD.

 

[George]

I hope your chosen field is in the financial industry. Specifically a financial advisor? Because that is some top notch advice. Why didn't I think of that? Guys. Everyone, gather round, I have some advice that's gonna melt your brain....

Get more money!!!! Spend less money!!!! Boom, problem solved. Checks payable to Dan the Man, Money Planner MD.

I read this and thought I had your system down. I then read more of this informative thread and realized I was confused. Should I spend more money on produce? Should I buy processed food and sell it? Maybe I should make financial deals while waiting in queues? Anyway, can you put together a series of DVDs or infomercials that I can watch before purchasing your financial product? THANKS!!!

 

[Grimley1968]

I hope your chosen field is in the financial industry. Specifically a financial advisor? Because that is some top notch advice. Why didn't I think of that? Guys. Everyone, gather round, I have some advice that's gonna melt your brain....

Get more money!!!! Spend less money!!!! Boom, problem solved. Checks payable to Dan the Man, Money Planner MD.

It's a good thing we now have the insight necessary to succeed in life. And here I've been living under the motto of "get less money and spend more of it" all these years! And in that spirit the check is in the mail to Dan the Man.

 

[Mrhappyplace]

I've spent a fair bit of time reading this thread the past week and until the last few pages one thing really stood out for me, quite a few posters who feel they don't get a good ROI on WDW trip. This in and of itself is not unusual here and that's fine, but it seemed odd to me that there was a rather vocal handful who joined this forum in the past 6 months or so. Just struck me as odd that one(or three) would feel this way and join the forum after coming to this conclusion. I fully understand those who were already active here when they came to that conclusion.

In regards to the last page or two, while I'm sure you all will continue to ridicule @Chef Mickey and do the internet forum comedy routine, sure the tone of the Chefs posts can be a bit harsh but their is truth there IMO. Too many people in our society spend lots of money on things with very little actual value on a daily basis while complaining how they can't afford the things they really need or want. It may be on way overpriced coffee or fast food. lottery tickets, beer, movies, video games or any number of other things all of which are fine for a occasional splurge but many people waste their money on these things daily. They have no real desire to save money and continue to live paycheck to paycheck while paying lots of interest on their credit cards.

 

[SorcererMC]

This starts by getting a quality degree, a quality job, and doing without a few things.

By 'quality degree', you're not referring to history or the social sciences, right?

Economics is a social science....it measures and explains the phenomena being discussed in the last two pages - the middle class and how that is defined (including hallmarks like a yearly vacation), income inequality, social mobility, affordability (as a function of income and related to utility), normal goods and luxury goods (ie WDW vacation), pricing strategy and analysis, etc. Across countries (or other geographically defined areas). Economic geography can even explain the dearth of fresh produce options near WDW.

And the next time you see someone complaining about high prices at WDW, just chalk it up to 'diminishing marginal utility' - no cynical judgment or drama necessary. Quite often the complaints here are 1. a symptom of Disney implementing a pricing strategy to appeal to the 'luxury' consumer market (growing since the 2008 recession), vs. the middle-income 'normal' consumer market (that has historically been WDW's core demographic). 2. a reaction to paying more for the same product (or lesser, depending on one's perspective or frequency of visits.....consumers, especially tourists, tend to not like a downgrade in the experience if they are still paying as much as or more for it...they just go elsewhere).

 

[xdan0920]

I read this and thought I had your system down. I then read more of this informative thread and realized I was confused. Should I spend more money on produce? Should I buy processed food and sell it? Maybe I should make financial deals while waiting in queues? Anyway, can you put together a series of DVDs or infomercials that I can watch before purchasing your financial product? THANKS!!!

The DVDs are part of the product. I can't give things away, that would be against my first tenant on the road to financial freedom.

1. Get more money.