Attendance drop in the parks... I wonder why

[Otterhead]

I'll leave you with this: The reason we didn't go was due to having to pay much more for much less.

Disney has definitely pared away a lot of the 'bonuses'; remember Magical Wishes? It wasn't that expensive, and man, it gave you some huge perks. That plus the old dining plan made for a relatively inexpensive vacation where you felt like a king. But it's long gone.

Even if you've gotten used to thinking of Disney as something to save up for, a luxury indulgence, the fact is right now that they're between big overhauls. There's tons and tons of great stuff in the works, but for 2017? A nighttime water show isn't enough to entice me down there. And when you've been at least once every year for 12-14 years, it's time for a break so that it doesn't get old and routine and boring. [full disclosure, the main reason I've gone so often is because my housemate's brother, a DVC member, can't travel due to health, so we've been taking his nephew down to help him out].

 

[Larry Mondello]

It's been too crowded in the past five years anyway. A dip in attendance may, just may bring it down to somewhat tolerable levels. This is good news as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Bandini]

It's been too crowded in the past five years anyway. A dip in attendance may, just may bring it down to somewhat tolerable levels. This is good news as far as I'm concerned.

But this past year, attendance has dipped and according to the people who have been the parks still feel crowded. Because, based on attendance predictions from MDE and FP+, Disney right sizes their staff and reduces ride capacity. So even if the crowd level is supposed to be a 3 it always feels like a 7.

 

[Grimley1968]

I agree with Laketravis that this thread seems to have run its course, and I think I'm going to exit as well, but not before explaining why my family is among those who used to go to WDW often and for long stays, and now goes less often, for shorter durations, and maybe not anytime in the near future. I've already touched on these reasons in a more macro sense of why attendance may be dipping, but they were really based on my own experience:

- Value. We don't feel we're getting the same value out of our WDW trips, long or short, as we used to. WDW has consistently raised prices on their resorts and park tickets. The deluxe resorts have had some major disruptions in their quality recently. Every single resort on the monorail line and WL have had DVC installed or expanded in them, and at least at the Poly and WL, major disruptions in the views and ambience have occurred as a result. In the parks, though ticket prices continue to rise, the trend is to not add new attractions, but to close them and possibly replace them with something else. For example, I think a Frozen ride is a great thing to add to WDW somewhere. WDW absolutely should take advantage of such a popular movie. But I hated that WDW turned one of our sentimental favorites into a Frozen attraction, with all the empty space all over both DHS and EPCOT. A net non-addition to WDW. EPCOT also unceremoniously cut the Fife and Drum Corps, one of our favorite "mini" shows. We used to love the trio of that, the Voices of Liberty and then the American Adventure show. It was a great 45 minute or so break in the touring. These seem like small examples, and they are in the big picture, but they're things that negatively affect the value of our WDW vacations.

- The pre-planning. This affects value, but deserves its own heading, IMO. It used to be that we could do research on the parks, resorts, travel to WDW, etc. and yet still have flexibility when we actually got there to change parks or even go to a waterpark a day we hadn't planned. All we had to was show up, and if we showed up early enough, we could get legacy FP's for any ride we wanted. That is not the case with FP+. This past trip to MK, we never saw less than 80 minutes standby time for Mine Train. Because we were not staying onsite, we were only able to make FP+'s 30 days out, and Mine Train FP's were long gone. We ended up doing other rides that day, because Mine Train did not exactly thrill us the couple of times we rode it a year or so before. That is serendipitous for us because it allowed us to ride all our other favorites with FP+ or standby, but it could just as easily have been a ride we enjoyed. I realize others think FP+ is great and that's fine, but I think it's ridiculous to plan which rides I'm going to ride at what times of day, when in the past we tried to be flexible about what parks to visit on which days. The ADR system is even more ridiculous IMO. The fact that its window is different than FP+ causes all kinds of scheduling problems. The fact that its window is 180 days is even more absurd to me. Trying to determine on 1/26 what I want to eat at 6:00 PM on 7/26 is futile, and would end up being frustrating at 6:00 PM on 7/26, when I might prefer takeout fish and chips to a big Le Cellier dinner.

- Relative value. Not only has WDW's pricing and simultaneous lack of improvement affected the value of a WDW vacation for us, it has made other destinations more appealing. For less than a WDW vacation we can go relax on almost any beach in the US, go to national parks, go to DLR, go to more local tourist destinations, or just stay home. This past summer for example, instead of another WDW vacation, we chose to go west. We flew to Las Vegas, got out of there ASAP because of the extreme heat, drove to Hoover Dam, drove to Grand Canyon, drove over to Anaheim and went to DLR for a few days, then back to Las Vegas for the flight home, all while enjoying the incredible natural sights out there while driving around the southwest. Finally, we felt like we had gotten real value for our vacation dollar, and we spent about $1500 less on everything than what I was quoted for a WL stay for a week at WDW, and for the most part had very nice accommodations.

- Decreasing nostalgia factor. Since I've been going to WDW since spring of 1972 as a small child and was a rabid fan until recently, there is obviously a massive nostalgia tie to WDW, and for my family that has been transferred to them because of all the trips we've taken in just the last 20 years or so. But some specific negative experiences, plus the lack of value the past few trips have loosened that nostalgia tie. I have a lot of great memories of WDW, but I'm becoming increasingly content to let them be memories and not to try to recreate them.

Like others, I'm in a wait-and-see stance for Pandora and Star Wars. I hope Pandora begins to reverse WDW's long slide and that Star Wars (whenever it opens) really pushes WDW ahead again in terms of vacation value for us. But in case it doesn't we've already begun to cut our losses, and enjoy other options.

 

[Chef Mickey]

After 50+ trips to WDW dating back to 1972, in all seasons, at all levels of WDW resorts and offsite locations, single day trips coming from the beach (like in December), weeklong stays, going all the way from ticket books to the FP+ era, I think I've figured out the best way to go to WDW given the circumstances of specific trips for my family. But I sure appreciate the lecture!

That's good, but I've actually been more and in a much shorter span of time. The "best" way to go is somewhat subjective, but paying $100 for a 1 day pass to ride 2 rides because that's all your family likes? Objectively, you're not getting much value and/or you don't like what Disney offers enough to justify the cost. Or you're rich, which is fine too.

 

[Grimley1968]

That's good, but I've actually been more and in a much shorter span of time. The "best" way to go is somewhat subjective, but paying $100 for a 1 day pass to ride 2 rides because that's all your family likes? Objectively, you're not getting much value and/or you don't like what Disney offers enough to justify the cost. Or you're rich, which is fine too.

Not sure why you keep quoting me and saying I paid for a 1 day pass to ride 2 rides. I never said that and I've never done that.

 

[Chef Mickey]

I agree with Laketravis that this thread seems to have run its course, and I think I'm going to exit as well, but not before explaining why my family is among those who used to go to WDW often and for long stays, and now goes less often, for shorter durations, and maybe not anytime in the near future. I've already touched on these reasons in a more macro sense of why attendance may be dipping, but they were really based on my own experience:

- Value. We don't feel we're getting the same value out of our WDW trips, long or short, as we used to. WDW has consistently raised prices on their resorts and park tickets. The deluxe resorts have had some major disruptions in their quality recently. Every single resort on the monorail line and WL have had DVC installed or expanded in them, and at least at the Poly and WL, major disruptions in the views and ambience have occurred as a result. In the parks, though ticket prices continue to rise, the trend is to not add new attractions, but to close them and possibly replace them with something else. For example, I think a Frozen ride is a great thing to add to WDW somewhere. WDW absolutely should take advantage of such a popular movie. But I hated that WDW turned one of our sentimental favorites into a Frozen attraction, with all the empty space all over both DHS and EPCOT. A net non-addition to WDW. EPCOT also unceremoniously cut the Fife and Drum Corps, one of our favorite "mini" shows. We used to love the trio of that, the Voices of Liberty and then the American Adventure show. It was a great 45 minute or so break in the touring. These seem like small examples, and they are in the big picture, but they're things that negatively affect the value of our WDW vacations.

- The pre-planning. This affects value, but deserves its own heading, IMO. It used to be that we could do research on the parks, resorts, travel to WDW, etc. and yet still have flexibility when we actually got there to change parks or even go to a waterpark a day we hadn't planned. All we had to was show up, and if we showed up early enough, we could get legacy FP's for any ride we wanted. That is not the case with FP+. This past trip to MK, we never saw less than 80 minutes standby time for Mine Train. Because we were not staying onsite, we were only able to make FP+'s 30 days out, and Mine Train FP's were long gone. We ended up doing other rides that day, because Mine Train did not exactly thrill us the couple of times we rode it a year or so before. That is serendipitous for us because it allowed us to ride all our other favorites with FP+ or standby, but it could just as easily have been a ride we enjoyed. I realize others think FP+ is great and that's fine, but I think it's ridiculous to plan which rides I'm going to ride at what times of day, when in the past we tried to be flexible about what parks to visit on which days. The ADR system is even more ridiculous IMO. The fact that its window is different than FP+ causes all kinds of scheduling problems. The fact that its window is 180 days is even more absurd to me. Trying to determine on 1/26 what I want to eat at 6:00 PM on 7/26 is futile, and would end up being frustrating at 6:00 PM on 7/26, when I might prefer takeout fish and chips to a big Le Cellier dinner.

- Relative value. Not only has WDW's pricing and simultaneous lack of improvement affected the value of a WDW vacation for us, it has made other destinations more appealing. For less than a WDW vacation we can go relax on almost any beach in the US, go to national parks, go to DLR, go to more local tourist destinations, or just stay home. This past summer for example, instead of another WDW vacation, we chose to go west. We flew to Las Vegas, got out of there ASAP because of the extreme heat, drove to Hoover Dam, drove to Grand Canyon, drove over to Anaheim and went to DLR for a few days, then back to Las Vegas for the flight home, all while enjoying the incredible natural sights out there while driving around the southwest. Finally, we felt like we had gotten real value for our vacation dollar, and we spent about $1500 less on everything than what I was quoted for a WL stay for a week at WDW, and for the most part had very nice accommodations.

- Decreasing nostalgia factor. Since I've been going to WDW since spring of 1972 as a small child and was a rabid fan until recently, there is obviously a massive nostalgia tie to WDW, and for my family that has been transferred to them because of all the trips we've taken in just the last 20 years or so. But some specific negative experiences, plus the lack of value the past few trips have loosened that nostalgia tie. I have a lot of great memories of WDW, but I'm becoming increasingly content to let them be memories and not to try to recreate them.

Like others, I'm in a wait-and-see stance for Pandora and Star Wars. I hope Pandora begins to reverse WDW's long slide and that Star Wars (whenever it opens) really pushes WDW ahead again in terms of vacation value for us. But in case it doesn't we've already begun to cut our losses, and enjoy other options.

Yeah, so you pretty much don't see the value anymore. That's fine. Fewer people in line for me. I actually wish Disney would raise prices more to drive down crowds (since they refuse to expand the parks in a meaningful way).

BTW, I don't disagree with your stance on WDW's lack of park investment for the last 20 years. I've been highly critical of their lack of new attractions, quality of attractions they actually build, and general complacency. For me, so much of what I love still endures and the general feeling of happiness never leaves when I'm at WDW. Disney has made some investments (we'll see) and hopefully EPCOT is next.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Not sure why you keep quoting me and saying I paid for a 1 day pass to ride 2 rides. I never said that and I've never done that.

Good. That wouldn't be smart anyway. I'm too lazy to look back, but you said something about paying $100 to ride 2 rides in Pandora and your trips have gotten shorter over time.

Whatever floats your boat. My point was that Disney's value story is there, but you need to spend at least 5-6 days.

 

[contrariwise]

That's good, but I've actually been more and in a much shorter span of time.

Oh brother.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Oh brother.

That only came up because this guy started throwing around the number times he's been as a badge of honor and the reason he knows how to "do" WDW the "right" way. I just pointed out I've been more times in a shorter time frame. If he still thinks he knows how to understand the value better than me, he'll have to use another jab to explain why he would know better.

 

[Grimley1968]

Good. That wouldn't be smart anyway. I'm too lazy to look back, but you said something about paying $100 to ride 2 rides in Pandora and your trips have gotten shorter over time.

Whatever floats your boat. My point was that Disney's value story is there, but you need to spend at least 5-6 days.

Nope. I did look back, and I never said anything about paying $100 to ride 2 rides in Pandora. Someone else might have, but it wasn't me. Please stop quoting me and attributing to me things I never said.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Nope. I did look back, and I never said anything about paying $100 to ride 2 rides in Pandora. Someone else might have, but it wasn't me. Please stop quoting me and attributing to me things I never said.

You're right, my apologies. You did however defend 1 day Disney trips and said you did it in December (which means you must have purchased a 1 day pass?). I mean, current tickets expire within 14 days of first use, so unless you had an old ticket...

Unless you're an annual passholder, I don't see how spending $100 for a 1 day ticket makes much sense, particularly if you're not local. Not much else to do in Orlando besides Disney and that other park.

 

[Grimley1968]

You're right, my apologies. You did however defend 1 day Disney trips and said you did it in December (which means you must have purchased a 1 day pass?). I mean, current tickets expire within 14 days of first use, so unless you had an old ticket...

Unless you're an annual passholder, I don't see how spending $100 for a 1 day ticket makes much sense, particularly if you're not local. Not much else to do in Orlando besides Disney and that other park.

Not that anyone should have to "defend" their choice of vacation travel, I will point out that we had a 2-day pass, with a beach trip in the middle of two separate one day trips, one to MK on the trip south and one to EPCOT on the return trip north. In neither case did we do 2 rides and walk out. In fact, we did every single ride in EPCOT due to at least a temporary drop in attendance on 12/23.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Not that anyone should have to "defend" their choice of vacation travel, I will point out that we had a 2-day pass, with a beach trip in the middle of two separate one day trips, one to MK on the trip south and one to EPCOT on the return trip north. In neither case did we do 2 rides and walk out. In fact, we did every single ride in EPCOT due to at least a temporary drop in attendance on 12/23.

I'm from the 'let people do what they want' school. If you want to go 2 days or even 1 day and you think it's great, that's fine. I'm just telling you the "value" isn't going to be there by going 1 day. Disney sets it up this way on purpose The are making you pay a lot for that short span of time (as they should) because they have limited opportunities to get you to spend money.

And btw, there is nothing wrong with it. If your family has decided you can do all you want to do in 2 days, more power to you.

 

[pax_65]

But this past year, attendance has dipped and according to the people who have been the parks still feel crowded. Because, based on attendance predictions from MDE and FP+, Disney right sizes their staff and reduces ride capacity. So even if the crowd level is supposed to be a 3 it always feels like a 7.

And again, it's worth pointing out that FP+ dramatically changes how the standby lines work. In slower periods in the past you could walk on Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Soarin', etc. But my experience recently has been that those attractions have very long standby lines (even on slower days) because so many FPs were handed out and they're pulling primarily from the FP line.

 

[LAKid53]

Ok so you were the adult fan base, buying the toys and merchandise for the kid fans.lol. I still have the original millennium falcon passed down from my brother. They just don't make them like that anymore!

Back on topic of attendance, I think when SW land is complete WDW will see the greatest spike of many years. I don't think Avatar will have as huge of a draw. I say enjoy WDW now before those fans make their decent.

In agreement about SW Land and attendance (trying to stay on topic so Mom doesn't have to remind us again ). I've seen Avatar once...on TV. It was good, but nothing I would go out of my way to see repeatedly. When Cameron announced 4 sequels, my response was "huh? really? okay...." I saw TFA the first three showings (well, to be truthful, I slept through most of the third - waaay past my bedtime) and then showed up the next afternoon for a 4th. I think many of us SW fans are salivating at the opportunity to sit at the controls of the Millennium Falcon. I think crowds will exceed HP at Uni. And Central Florida may sink under all that humanity, lol.

 

[21stamps]

And again, it's worth pointing out that FP+ dramatically changes how the standby lines work. In slower periods in the past you could walk on Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Soarin', etc. But my experience recently has been that those attractions have very long standby lines (even on slower days) because so many FPs were handed out and they're pulling primarily from the FP line.

I'm always curious when I read something like this. Have you been to WDW before FP ever existed? If so- do you want to return to that time--but now with thousands more people than there was back then?

In agreement about SW Land and attendance (trying to stay on topic so Mom doesn't have to remind us again ). I've seen Avatar once...on TV. It was good, but nothing I would go out of my way to see repeatedly. When Cameron announced 4 sequels, my response was "huh? really? okay...." I saw TFA the first three showings (well, to be truthful, I slept through most of the third - waaay past my bedtime) and then showed up the next afternoon for a 4th. I think many of us SW fans are salivating at the opportunity to sit at the controls of the Millennium Falcon. I think crowds will exceed HP at Uni. And Central Florida may sink under all that humanity, lol.

I think the crowds will exceed HP for sure. I donor underestimate the level of obsession with Star Wars nerds...and fans.lol

 

[contrariwise]

I'm always curious when I read something like this. Have you been to WDW before FP ever existed? If so- do you want to return to that time--but now with thousands more people than there was back then?

Maybe I missed something in 17 pages, but who suggested this as an alternative?

 

[Angel Ariel]

Nobody pays $100 to go to Universal just to run in, ride the Harry Potter ride, and run out. Like Avatar, it's about the entire experience of the area -- walking around, shopping, trying the food, then going to other areas of the park. Even if you're only going for the day (let's say you're at a convention and only have one day to spare, or you're doing other stuff in the area), AK will easily be a full-day park once Avatar's open, with $100 worth of entertainment.

I've been lurking for a while,but this is my first time posting here.

I will say that, yes, we did buy 1 day Universal tickets back in 2013, specifically to go in and see WWoHP, and that's it. We were on an extended family trip, but some of the party arrived 2 days earlier than the rest. On our first full day in FL, we had a photo shoot with a local photographer at the GF/Poly in the morning. It was DD's first trip (8 months old), and her grandparents were with us and we wanted to catch some special moments. We went to Universal after that...we got there some time around lunch time. We had lunch at the Three Broomsticks, walked around the HP area/did some shopping, rode Dragon Challenge, waited for FJ for something like 2 hours, and then headed back to the hotel on Disney property. With an 8 month old, we had to be back in time to put her down for bed. I think we spent something like 6 hours in the park.

Now, I will grant, Universal had a military deal going on at the time and DH's ticket was free. The rest of us had a discount, but it wasn't a huge discount as I recall. But those of us who were there (DH, me, my parents) are all huge HP fans, and we didn't know when we'd get the chance to go again. So we took the chance we had at the time. With DD being only 8 months, only having tickets to IOA, and her being a bit developmentally delayed (not sitting on her own yet at that point), we weren't really interested in the rest of IOA. We walked through it as we went to WWoHP and as we left, so we saw everything, but we only rode things in WWoHP.

I'm sure many will consider that a waste of time and money, and now that DD is no longer free, we wouldn't do that again. But for the adults at the time, in that particular situation, it was worth it. We haven't been back to Universal since, so I'm glad we went when we had the opportunity to go. And I'm willing to bet we're not the only ones who have done so. To be sure, I don't think it's a huge number of people that would do this...not at all. But I do think those people exist, especially for franchises like Harry Potter and Star Wars. Avatar? not so much.

 

[L.C. Clench]

I'm from the 'let people do what they want' school. If you want to go 2 days or even 1 day and you think it's great, that's fine. I'm just telling you the "value" isn't going to be there by going 1 day. Disney sets it up this way on purpose The are making you pay a lot for that short span of time (as they should) because they have limited opportunities to get you to spend money.

And btw, there is nothing wrong with it. If your family has decided you can do all you want to do in 2 days, more power to you.

The "let people do what they want to" thing doesn't really work when you say people have to defend one day trips and they don't make any sense. The "savings" on tickets don't start getting good until day 4 and while I would agree a single day HS ticket doesn't seem like a good deal at the moment we've done multiple single day trips to MK and EPCOT for various reasons whether it's a stop before or after a cruise or even just wanting to go to F&W or F&G.

With the relative lack of anything new and repeatable it could be argued that going for more days just to save on tickets provides less value then just doing what you would like and moving on to another destination.