Are Oranges a good sign ... or just citrus?

[WDW1974]

Disney blogger (and former MAGICal poster Michael Crawford) posted the story below that was sent to me by a fanboi who knows I get all hot and bothered by overpriced tiny dessert treats (I REALLY DO!)

Like a lot of things in this Disney Lifestyle era, he makes a lot of great points (like one hand at Disney not knowing what the other is doing -- but something that also happens at 95% of all large American corps in the 21st century ... and that sometimes there really isn't any large hidden agenda other than making money at play).

My biggest 'issue' on the piece is the fundamental lack of grasping that Disney is watching things like this through Social Media (really, it only seems like they're paying Blondie and Tommy to do nothing!) ... and if folks are happy with retro merchandise and retro desserts than there really is no reason actually do anything new and cutting edge.

Why build WWoP 2.0 (or 1.0) or Anatarctica when a new line of EPCOT vinymation will have the fans wetting themselves?

Much the same way Disney has discovered through online sites that as much as fanbois , the status quo seems quite alright with many.

Why have a year-long 30th Anniversary for EPCOT when some high-priced retro merchandise and a fan event (where Disney will 'contribute' by trotting out old Marty to tell the same stories and maybe show a piece of artwork from the original Health pavilion or Spain pavilion that never has made it to a coffeetable book yet) will do so for pennies?

The reason why WDW withers and puts out the same stale product year after year isn't as complicated as Michael or others would have you believe, it's what one celebrity Imagineer told me last year at the DLH 'WDW's fans are its biggest problem' ... and those fans who are loudest are the ones online.

Anyway, citrus swirl anyone?

http://progresscityusa.com/2012/04/06/oranges-are-good-for-you/

~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~

 

[WDW1974]

Oh, and about the only thing that seemed to sell less than Orange Bird merchandise would be Marvel stuff.

And, on another subject, kudos again to my wacky 'pal' Merfie for being the only one to put the new plans for the FW/RC DVC up on his blog (unfortunately, that doesn't get you sent to Anaheim for DCA 2.0 unveiling though!)

~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~

 

[wdwmagic]

The whole Citrus thing is quite bizarre to me. I understand for some people it is a big deal, for those who were there in the old days, and I get that. Yet a lot of the people who are making a big song and dance about this are in their teens, and never had any real attachment in the first place, and yet are jumping on board because it is somehow cool to do?

 

[HenryMystic]

Spirit, you've basically summed up my feelings on the issue. Sadly, it will fall on deaf ears to the #CultofCitrus (seriously?) folks.

~Year of a Million Pins~

 

[WDWFigment]

I agree with Michael.

WDW1974, by your own admission, your biggest issue with the piece is that it downplays social media. While I disagree (as I have) with your assertion that social media is so paramount to Disney's decisions, even if you are right, a few dozen people on Twitter (who are overtly critical of Disney most of the time) discussing their enjoyment of Citrus Swirls or Orange Bird is not going to cause Disney to think it's placating the most disgruntled fans so that it can further rest on its laurels.

As stated above, I disagree with the notion that there's some social media conspiracy. Disney is using social media just as it has used other forms of media. It recognizes that, due to SEO, small-ish Disney websites that reach primed users not only can receive more views than the same content in traditional media outlets like the New York Times, but also (because the audience is somewhat-primed), that it's a better investment to target these Disney websites. I know the likely retort to this will be that a NYT critic will be objective, while a mom blogging about her cruise has a symbiotic relationship with Disney, so she won't be objective...but who is that on? Disney's principle motivation is getting the most coverage possible. If they could get favorably-biased NYT reviews, I guarantee they would. Take the bloggers to task (as Merf and others have done) on that if you feel these biased reviews are problematic.

Very few large companies are using social media as an actual open dialogue with customers. Companies use it carefully to deliver a controlled message with the appearance of active listening. Since almost all companies are using it the same way, I'm not quite sure how what Disney is doing qualifies as a "conspiracy." If you think the social media team sits in a smoke-filled war room trying to think up new ways to pull the wool over our eyes, I think you're sadly mistaken. Many of the individuals who are part of this "enemy" are fairly well-informed parks fans with the same interests and concerns as the average poster here. But, I suppose it's easier to think of them as some sort of evil big brother eye-in-the-sky.

But I'm digressing quite a bit from the original point.

There have been a number of things that are 'baby-steps' towards a better overall product. As Michael points out, not everything is going to be a billion dollar expansion. A step in the right direction is a step in the right direction, is it not? You can't on the one hand complain that merchandise is all generic due to Walmarting, and then on the other hand complain when resort-specific merchandise returns (as it has...has anyone here even noticed that?) that it has only returned as subterfuge to distract from the REAL problems.

In any case, the people who are excited about the Citrus Swirl...they're also loudly complaining about other things.

 

[WDW1974]

The whole Citrus thing is quite bizarre to me. I understand for some people it is a big deal, for those who were there in the old days, and I get that. Yet a lot of the people who are making a big song and dance about this are in their teens, and never had any real attachment in the first place, and yet are jumping on board because it is somehow cool to do?

You nailed it, Steve. That's what I don't get.

It's sorta like Horizons. I miss it, but I rode it the first few weeks it was open ... I watched it being built ... it was an attraction I knew I'd never wait more than 20-30 minutes for on the absolute busiest days of the year.

But when kids who never experienced it go crazy and want to buy logo tees and pins and vinyl dedicated to it, my reaction is why ... sorta like all the talk about things like WRE on up to BK (that one may be unfair for some of the older folks), but I longingly waited for WRE as a child and expected it would eventually come.

I am afraid I'm going to express myself the wrong way (that never happens here, does it?) ... but I sense many younger fans living WDW thru coffeetable books and (now) D23 presentations.

It isn't the same a living it and it's just a bit strange to me. ... And you can't say the same about things like films and music because whether you are speaking of Snow White or the Beatles, those things tend to be timeless.

I think I'm going to shut my yap now (well, and go open it at lunch) but I'm interested in what others have to say.

I just don't know how you can attempt to live in the past without having lived in said past.

That said, I think I was a pharoah in a prevous life!:drevil::king:

~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~

 

[njDizFan]

I really enjoyed the article, I thought it summed up quite a bit of "fanboy" angst prevelent on the discussion boards.

I have no interest or personal feelings towards the citrus swirl or the orange bird. I did not make my first pilgramage to the holy land until the early 90's so I am not enthralled by the retro(AKA Golden) era of WDW. But I understand and appreciate his point. This is a small tidbit thrown to the loyal fanbase. Hopefully not to serve the purpose of quelling the shouts for huge E-Ticket attractions but just a simple nod towards customer appreciation.


It's kind of shame the way the current American business model operates. Everything is specialized, compartmentalized and analyzed. and with dividing factions between and sometimes with departments nothing ever gets done. It's similar to the Government in that sense and its frustrating to the fans and what we reep is stagnation.

Nostalgia is big part of the Disney experience and TWDC know that it needs their repeat customers and rabid fanbase to be satiated. So, I'm sure there are a lot of people clammering for their Orange Swirls and I guess we can give this particular idea man his props. But as the article also stated if this small merch directive has legs maybe that will give this department ammunition to fire the next idea. Let's just hope it's not a small 70's reference but something that will actually improve the parks.

I know this is a huge stretch....Orange Swirl does not begat a Beastly Kingdom.

 

[WDWFigment]

You nailed it, Steve. That's what I don't get.

It's sorta like Horizons. I miss it, but I rode it the first few weeks it was open ... I watched it being built ... it was an attraction I knew I'd never wait more than 20-30 minutes for on the absolute busiest days of the year.

But when kids who never experienced it go crazy and want to buy logo tees and pins and vinyl dedicated to it, my reaction is why ... sorta like all the talk about things like WRE on up to BK (that one may be unfair for some of the older folks), but I longingly waited for WRE as a child and expected it would eventually come.

I am afraid I'm going to express myself the wrong way (that never happens here, does it?) ... but I sense many younger fans living WDW thru coffeetable books and (now) D23 presentations.

It isn't the same a living it and it's just a bit strange to me. ... And you can't say the same about things like films and music because whether you are speaking of Snow White or the Beatles, those things tend to be timeless.

I think I'm going to shut my yap now (well, and go open it at lunch) but I'm interested in what others have to say.

I just don't know how you can attempt to live in the past without having lived in said past.

That said, I think I was a pharoah in a prevous life!:drevil::king:

~Change is coming. BIG, SPIRITED change!~

I think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone young is waxing nostalgic for snacks they've never experienced, I think they're looking towards these things as vehicles indicative of positive change (or something like that).

Compare the Sunshine Tree Terrace new menu to the old menu. You can't tell me that's not "Improving By Degrees." http://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2012/04/03/sunshine-tree-terrace-updates-entrees-adds-new-desserts/

I'm not saying that everything is improving, but I see no issue in giving praise where praise is due if you give criticism where criticism is due. You praise things you think Disney is getting right (usually in a backhanded way...but you still do it!), so what's wrong with others doing the same?

 

[Jimmy Thick]

Reading that article was more head scratching than thought provoking. It seems to be just another unnecessary attempt to slam Disney for trying to do whats right.:shrug:

As for social media, I find it extremely hard to believe Disney would waste valuable resources and money for people to scour the web when anything posted has no affect of the decisions they make anyway. Way to small of a fanbase online.


Jimmy Thick-Numbers don't lie...

 

[prberk]

In a whole different way, I think that WDW SHOULD have the Orange Swirl and Orange Bird, but not just for nostalgia -- because they are in FLORIDA!!

WDW used to be distinct from Disneyland in California, and it should be. One of those ways should be cooperating with the rest of the region in promoting what makes their world -- including the Sunshine State -- special. And part of that is Oranges.

I guess that is my nostalgia, but one that has reason. When WDW first started, they understood the need to look around themselves a little bit, even with the eutopia they were building. And they naturally made a partnership with Florida Citrus. This is a partnership that they should still have.

You should be able to have freshly-squeezed Florida orange and grapefruit juice at Epcot and in your hotel. Doesn't "The Land" teach us just that...?

 

[flynnibus]

Retro is big everywhere in the last few years... from cars to hair. I see Disney it disney tapping two flows... nostalgia for those that knew it.. and retro for those too young to but who have a thirst for the brand association.

There is nothing necessarily deceiving or manipulative by people who want to associate with things that may predate them. Be it music, art, pop culture, sub cultures... people often find trends or themes in things of the past that resonate for them.

You don't have to have been 16 in 1970 to love muscle cars.. nor do you have to have lived in the 1800s to find love in steampunk styling.

Disney has built a model of 'limited access' to much of it's properties.. it's done it for years with movies (Disney Vault), it does it with characters, and it does it with merchandise.

This clashing in question sounds more like ego clashing and snobbery then anything to actually do with the Disney company.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

I am afraid I'm going to express myself the wrong way (that never happens here, does it?) ... but I sense many younger fans living WDW thru coffeetable books and (now) D23 presentations.

I just don't know how you can attempt to live in the past without having lived in said past.

You pretty much summed it up here, but forgot to include not only current produced Disney history material, but media from that past that can help form "nostalgia" for those who never lived it. Think of how many TV specials like "The Grand Opening of Walt Disney World" are on YouTube, or the WDT sets that had WWoC episodes like "Disneyland: 10th Anniversary" and "Disneyland Goes to the World's Fair".

All this material combined definately presents a rose-coloured vision of the past that certainly seems charming and quaint in comparison to advertsing now like the "Disney Parks Christmas Parade". Even a character like the Orange Bird is done in a drawing style that resembles older Disney cartoons, which people have seen and can therefore relate too, even if they never really knew his presence or purpose in the parks (was he ever in Tokyo before the merchandise?).

As for BK, I think most people here would remember the pre-opening AK material that hyped its presence in some form. It wasn't that long ago, or am I just getting old now too? :lookaroun

 

[xdan0920]

Reading that article was more head scratching than thought provoking. It seems to be just another unnecessary attempt to slam Disney for trying to do whats right.:shrug:

As for social media, I find it extremely hard to believe Disney would waste valuable resources and money for people to scour the web when anything posted has no affect of the decisions they make anyway. Way to small of a fanbase online.


Jimmy Thick-Numbers don't lie...

Have you ever heard of a focus group Jim? We are one, gigantic, free focus group.

 

[WDWFigment]

Reading that article was more head scratching than thought provoking. It seems to be just another unnecessary attempt to slam Disney for trying to do whats right.:shrug:

As for social media, I find it extremely hard to believe Disney would waste valuable resources and money for people to scour the web when anything posted has no affect of the decisions they make anyway. Way to small of a fanbase online.


Jimmy Thick-Numbers don't lie...

I ran a Flesch–Kincaid test on it, and it turns out you have to have reading comprehension skills above the 3rd grade level to fully grasp the article.

 

[Lee]

Have you ever heard of a focus group Jim? We are one, gigantic, free focus group.

Exactly right. A free focus group that (not to make anyone paranoid...) is monitored every single day. The reaction to the whole Orange Bird/Citrus Swirl has been digested, quantified and processed by the good folks wave in Disney's Social Media Dept. With the positive reaction it has received, they are now planning whatever will be their next retro move.

Sadly, I wish I could say they're doing it out of kindness or good will foe the fans...but also sadly, I know better.

I'm reminded of an email I got....wow, must be nearly four years ago by now. In it, a helpful CM informed me about two annoying facts. One was that the Space Mountain project had been cut down from a true reimagining to just a fairly basic refurb. The other was that the meeting then turned to an upcoming line of retro merchandise, and how by properly displaying/selling those items they could hope to blunt a good portion of the disappointment with the SM situation.

Really. And I thought it was funny at the time. I don't anymore.

The thought process around that table was that fans could be distracted by retro merchandise.

So don't think that this doesn't happen, 'cause it does.

As '74 said, even imagineers know that fans are their own worst enemies, often acting against their own best interest. Being a good customer doesn't mean accepting blindly whatever you're sold. It means looking at your purchase with a critical eye, making sure you are getting what you want and what youre paying for.

Make them earn it.



~An agent of SPIRITED change.~

 

[jt04]

Reading that article was more head scratching than thought provoking. It seems to be just another unnecessary attempt to slam Disney for trying to do whats right.:shrug:

As for social media, I find it extremely hard to believe Disney would waste valuable resources and money for people to scour the web when anything posted has no affect of the decisions they make anyway. Way to small of a fanbase online.


Jimmy Thick-Numbers don't lie...

Exactly.


And just to add my two cents here....

I still believe something on the scale of WRE will happen. Maybe not for a decade or two as the other parks need attention more. However, if they are willing to sink a rough billion dollars :drevil: just to make Fantasyland a 'complete' and cohesive entity then the WRE and expanded TL only seem like a 'next step' in a process.

The key to the future is how the revamped DCA and the FLE are accepted by the public. If they are massive hits (and I expect they will be and with legs to run) then there is no reason success won't follow success.

PS- just to squash any assumptions, I get no compensation of any sort for defending the way WDW is run nor am I connected to anyone at WDW once twice or even by "7 degrees of Kevin Bacon". Perhaps I should look into the possibility though. :lol: I might be doing this all wrong. :lol:

 

[WDWFigment]

Exactly right. A free focus group that (not to make anyone paranoid...) is monitored every single day. The reaction to the whole Orange Bird/Citrus Swirl has been digested, quantified and processed by the good folks wave in Disney's Social Media Dept. With the positive reaction it has received, they are now planning whatever will be their next retro move.

People in the social media department don't dictate what the Disney Design Group or Food & Beverage Concept Development create.

 

[xdan0920]

:lol: I might be doing this all wrong. :lol:

Finally. Something we can all agree on. :ROFLOL:





In case the smiley wasn't enough, I want it to be clear I am at least half joking.

 

[Lee]

People in the social media department don't dictate what the Disney Design Group or Food & Beverage Concept Development create.

Of course not. At least not directly.
However, they do use the information provided by social media to determine things such as what to sell/build. (That's how the whole citrus thing got started.)

The information is certainly shared across many areas of the company, and it does have influence.




~An agent of SPIRITED change?~

 

[MiklCraw4d]

However, they do use the information provided by social media to determine things such as what to sell/build. (That's how the whole citrus thing got started.)

This is not how the recent MK changes came about.