Are changes coming to Florida passholder program?

[MrPromey]

Except that's not true and it's been proven over and over again that day of guest have access to all but a single digit number of experiences.

Proven? Care to point me to a scientific study?

You're sort of missing the point. If you have a pass, it is fair to reason that you visit the parks more than the "average guest", right? So when you go to a park that's gotten little to no investment over the last decade, which attractions are you going to be the most interested in doing? The ones that have changed little if at all over the last 20-30 years or the newer stuff?

Can you see why a passholder who can't get on Test Track (opened in '99, updated four years ago) and Soarin' (opened 2001, updated recently but with heavy waits long before the update) would be frustrating? The only "new" attraction before the Frozen update to Maelstrom is Mission Space which happened in 2003 and has limited appeal do to the nature of the ride.

Think about that. We (and by we I really mean all) still have some trouble getting on the new stuff when the "new stuff" is over a decade old. That seems like a bit of an issue, doesn't it? It's one of the reasons "entitled" passholders think about not renewing and Disney's response isn't to increase capacity in the parks to support the volume and fastpass system they created by building out new, desirable, attractions at a quick pace, it's to offer tierd ticket pricing and play with AP ticket options so that the people that pay the most to be there can have a truly miserable experience in a park that is overcrowded that day (busiest days).

Your argument would make sense if Disney hadn't created this whole problem by neglecting investment in the parks. They've created a situation where anything new that opens - practically anything - becomes a huge deal because for as long as many people can remember, that almost never happens.

BTW, in any of the three parks that don't begin with the word "magic" in their title, the "single digit" number of experiences can cover nearly every ride. You might want to rethink that as a talking point in debates.

 

[Bocabear]

The things your eyes must have seen...

Go to Key West during Fantasy Fest... espcially later at night at the corner of Duval and Greene Street....when they turn the streetlights off...It gets pretty wild.

 

[MrPromey]

POTC had hour long waits at times in the 90's, before any FP system. HM could get up 30-45 minutes easily during the summer. SM would get to 2 hours just a few hours after park opening. Let's not rewrite history here.

Yes, during the busiest times of the year, there would be waits. I'll also point out that the times between Christmas and New Years would be bad and so would spring break. Thanksgiving week was also not the best.

I'm in no way trying to rewrite history and I never made mention of Space Mountain... I said Spaceship Earth - the one that for most of the year was a direct walk-on straight up that center path, right on in, for probably close to 20 years but now utilizes that outdoor queue daily.

My point is, it doesn't matter what time of the year you go now. As a fl resident (who with the change to passes, now structures trips around blackout dates) the waits for these attractions are like this every day I visit. True, if you go first thing in the morning, it isn't bad on the "slow" days but there has been a definite change in recent years to wait times in general - even on things like the People Mover in the MK...

Not blaming it all on fastpass+. Obviously, current management has continued to market the hell out of the legacy they were left which has increased attendance, without investing in attractions to manage that attendance (though it's nice you can walk through the hub in Magic Kingdom, I guess).

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Yes, during the busiest times of the year, there would be waits. I'll also point out that the times between Christmas and New Years would be bad and so would spring break. Thanksgiving week was also not the best.

I'm in no way trying to rewrite history and I never made mention of Space Mountain... I said Spaceship Earth.

My point is, it doesn't matter what time of the year you go now. As a fl resident (who with the change to passes, now structures trips around blackout dates) the waits for these attractions are like this every day I visit. True, if you go first thing in the morning, it isn't bad on the "slow" days but there has been a definite change in recent years to wait times in general - even on things like the People Mover in the MK...

Not blaming it all on fastpass+. Obviously, current management has continued to market the hell out of the legacy they were left which has increased attendance, without investing in attractions to manage that attendance (though it's nice you can walk through the hub in Magic Kingdom, I guess).

Sorry, but no. I wasn't talking about the busy times of the year like Easter or Christmas. I was talking about normal days during the summer. I lived there, and went all the time. I only mentioned SM, since people like to think that it was a walk-on back in the 90's before FP. Yes, there were slow periods back then when I could go in Jan or Feb, and pretty much everything was a walk-on. You are absolutely correct that those slower times are gone, and they aren't coming back.

 

[jakeman]

Proven? Care to point me to a scientific study?

You're sort of missing the point. If you have a pass, it is fair to reason that you visit the parks more than the "average guest", right? So when you go to a park that's gotten little to no investment over the last decade, which attractions are you going to be the most interested in doing? The ones that have changed little if at all over the last 20-30 years or the newer stuff?

Can you see why a passholder who can't get on Test Track (opened in '99, updated four years ago) and Soarin' (opened 2001, updated recently but with heavy waits long before the update) would be frustrating? The only "new" attraction before the Frozen update to Maelstrom is Mission Space which happened in 2003 and has limited appeal do to the nature of the ride.

Think about that. We (and by we I really mean all) still have some trouble getting on the new stuff when the "new stuff" is over a decade old. That seems like a bit of an issue, doesn't it? It's one of the reason "entitled" passholders think about not renewing and Disney's response isn't to increase capacity in the parks to support the volume and fastpass system they created by building out new attractions at a quick pace. It's to offer tierd ticket pricing and play with AP ticket options so that the people that pay the most to be there can have a truly miserable experience in a park that is overcrowded that day.

Your argument would make sense if Disney hadn't created this whole problem by neglecting investment in the parks. They've created a situation where anything new that opens - practically anything - becomes a huge deal because for as long as many people can remember, that almost never happens.

BTW, in any of the three parks that don't begin with the word "magic" in their title, the "single digit" number of experiences can cover nearly every ride. You might want to rethink that as a talking point in debates.

Your premises is that guest seeking same day Fastpasses are limited in their options. It is categorically untrue. Routinely the number of experiences are in the single digits in total for the whole resort. I could leave to go to MK right now and FP are available for everything but Splash, Thunder, and 7DMT. Epcot is Frozen and Test Track. DHS everything is available. DAK everything is available. So across the entire resort a same day guest has 5 rides they can't go on.

I'm not making an argument for anything because I don't really care, but I'll admit the pervasive untruth that is clung to on these boards regarding the availability of same day Fastpasses is a pet peeve of mine.

So make whatever righteous stand you want to make for or against Disney's incessant fiddling with annual passes, just do it with correct information.

 

[MrPromey]

Yes, during the busiest times of the year, there would be waits. I'll also point out that the times between Christmas and New Years would be bad and so would spring break. Thanksgiving week was also not the best.


My point is, it doesn't matter what time of the year you go now. As a fl resident (who with the change to passes, now structures trips around blackout dates) the waits for these attractions are like this every day I visit. True, if you go first thing in the morning, it isn't bad on the "slow" days but there has been a definite change in recent years to wait times in general - even on things like the People Mover in the MK...

Not blaming it all on fastpass+. Obviously, current management has continued to market the hell out of the legacy they were left which has increased attendance, without investing in attractions to manage that attendance (though it's nice you can walk through the hub in Magic Kingdom, I guess).

Sorry, but no. I wasn't talking about the busy times of the year like Easter or Christmas. I was talking about normal days during the summer. I lived there, and went all the time. I only mentioned SM, since people like to think that it was a walk-on back in the 90's before FP. Yes, there were slow periods back then when I could go in Jan or Feb, and pretty much everything was a walk-on. You are absolutely correct that those slower times are gone, and they aren't coming back.

Summer has always been higher attendance, it was one of the blackout periods for the season passes so I always considered it a busier time.

Yeah, Space Mountain, Splash Mountain, Thunder Mountain - those have always remained popular at a level their capacity couldn't handle and in my lifetime of visiting the parks (Space Mountain being the only one that would pre-date me) short wait times have always been the rule. Additionally, I don't think Peter Pan is necessarily that popular of an attraction but with a crappy capacity, long lines have always been the norm rather than the exception as far as I can remember.

I recall waiting in the 80's as a kid for pirates... but I also recall haunted mansion having a queue that was more than able to handle crowds most of the time at its front gate before the extension to the queue through the new graveyard area, too.

Again, not trying to say I blame this all on fastpass+. I was one of the optimistic ones that was excited about the rollout. It's obviously just one piece of a bigger "issue" that I think for the average guest (annual passholder, day visitor, resort-stayer, etc.) has made a typical trip more expensive, less enjoyable, and more frustrating...

I have a young child that I was stupidly excited to get into the parks because of my time there as a child. I wanted him to have those kinds of memories, too so I got him excited a few years back and now feel a little stuck. I realize that Disney isn't a "right" for anyone and that there's no moral obligation to take him but if you're a parent, you may have some understanding of my conflicted interests, there. We took a year off a while back out of frustration and if it weren't for him, it probably would have been half a decade or more since things have only gotten worse, overall.

In that year off, we got passes for Universal which was a great way to do something a little different for everyone except him since most attractions there aren't suitable for young children. It was a very big eye-opener coming back to Disney, though, after seeing what a place that is willing to show they value your business is like.

It sucks to feel this kind of resentment towards a place you used to love visiting so much.

 

[Mike S]

Theres a couple different things to think about here:
1. Theme park annual passes continue to be a huge value compared to most other forms of top-tier entertainment. I just checked season tickets for the Magic and they are $1,300 for upper deck and between $5-7k for lower bowl.

2. Consumer trends have changed big time in the last 10 years, away from material items and towards experiences. As a result the prices of ALL tourist attractions have gone up a lot (look at the Flash Pass at Six Flags which cost like $5 when it first came out not that long ago and $100 now lol).

3. Disney World is not meant to be a place for locals to go hang out, its an international tourist destination. Yes the prices used to be way more affordable because during slower times of year tourism wasn't as strong, but now that cheer/dance/sports teams/brazillians etc fill up the non busy times obviously they are not as desperate for attendance so prices go up.

4. Florida, and Orlando specifically, continues to have a big population boom as middle class and affluent people from other areas of the country move there to escape the rising taxes and cold weather where they are from. Look at all the $300,000+ homes that are popping up all around the parks. More people + higher incomes = higher prices.

The fact of the matter is that companies are going to do what makes them the most money. You wonder why a cheeseburger cost $10? Because the $10 cheeseburger sells like crazy. And thats not only WDW thats every other crappy amusement park, sports venue, etc have similar prices. Iger and Chapek don't get paid based on whether people on DISboards like them or not.

And what about blocking out APs when something new opens? In your entire post you never once talked about the whole point of the thread.

 

[MrPromey]

Your premises is that guest seeking same day Fastpasses are limited in their options. It is categorically untrue. Routinely the number of experiences are in the single digits in total for the whole resort. I could leave to go to MK right now and FP are available for everything but Splash, Thunder, and 7DMT. Epcot is Frozen and Test Track. DHS everything is available. DAK everything is available. So across the entire resort a same day guest has 5 rides they can't go on.

I'm not making an argument for anything because I don't really care, but I'll admit the pervasive untruth that is clung to on these boards regarding the availability of same day Fastpasses is a pet peeve of mine.

So make whatever righteous stand you want to make for or against Disney's incessant fiddling with annual passes, just do it with correct information.

Yeah, you're still not getting it. When you can go 365 days a year and you can't get a fastpass for 7 dwarfs mine train for any of them and the wait time is always over an hour... and it's been open for more than two years, that's a bit frustrating. Before fastpass+, do you know what attractions you couldn't get a same day fastpass for were? The ones that weren't in operation. If you wanted a fastpass for Test Track and Soarin' on the same day, by golly, you could get one, too but that's not even my complete point.

Mostly, I was originally trying to say that a passholder won't be causing a whole lot of trouble with wait times for these new attractions, anyway. Since our trips aren't once-in-a-lifetime we aren't likely to do a 2+ hour wait more than once (if at all) for an under five minute attraction and being unable to get fastpasses until 30 days before our visit almost guarantees we won't be taking fastpass availability away from normal resort guests since they'll be long gone for these popular attractions well before we have access to them, anyway. As a customer, them floating the waters to even take that 2+ hour wait option away is aggravating - even if it wasn't an option you were going to consider because it is Disney acknowledging that they are thinking of you when they do all this stuff but not in a good way.

In addition, attractions that previously had little to no wait, now do. Of course, the parks are also seeing record attendance that they don't have enough attraction capacity to acomodate fully (but that's another issue). You kind of grabbed hold of fastpass alone which wasn't singularly my complaint. It had to do with wait times in general including for things that for decades, didn't consistently have them the way they do, now. Fastpass+ is what Disney holds as their answer to this which is what I was trying to explain, doesn't work as well as advertised to combat this.

I'm not making any "righteous stand" but it's obvious that Fastpass+ has had a net effect of increasing wait times (now called standby wait times) throughout property. It's also forced people without early access to fastpass selection to plan full stretches of days around fastpass availability or wait in longer lines than previous, to do attractions. This means criss-crossing parks a lot to try to do things and planning meals around availability windows for attractions - it's overall a much worse experience.

Not sure if you've ever planned a visit on shorter notice on the newer system or not but it's not as nice of a picture as you're painting.

As a family that visits typically on weekends because we aren't on vacation, availability in the middle of the day on a wednesday when a tropical storm is hitting our state, isn't a good example of something to convince me my thinking is wrong but today is when we're having the discussion so it "is what it is."

Just the same, I went onto Disney's site to see what a family of 3 could get for fastpasses today and as of this very moment (admittedly a little bit after your post) the things that are gone are: Festival of Fantasy Parade, Enchanted Tales with Belle, It's a Small World, Jungle Cruise, Meet Ariel at Her Grotto, Meet Cinderella, Meet Mickey, Meet Rapunzel, Meet Tinker Bell, Peter Pan's Flight, Seven Dwarfs Mine Train, Splash Mountain... Which is a little more than you mentioned but maybe a lot changed in that 22 minutes from when you posted.

Regardless of all of this, not participating in fastpass hurts you as a guest, not booking a fastpass as early as humanly possible hurts you as a guest (time options can quickly become a problem as dates draw nearer, even if passes don't completely disappear), having to choose between a limited set of popular attractions that can't be booked on the same day in some parks hurts you as a guest because all of this means that your only alternative option is to wait in a line that is now longer because people who got their pass 60 days out is in front of you, even if they haven't entered the queue yet.

You're welcome to say you don't feel sorry for those of us in this boat but don't act like we don't have a boat to be in and since my original point was about fastpasses for "new" attractions and not things like Spaceship Earth, I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

Mine train, still not available 30 days out. Frozen, (obviously) not available 30 days out. Everything associated with Avatar? Star Wars land when it finally opens? Unless something changes (like they bring back previews) or drastically different happens with these, it'll probably be the same. The fact that we can still do 20 year old attractions isn't exactly a good compromise for the people who have been doing those attractions for 20 years - first world problems and all but still not what you expect as a paying repeat guest.

What I'm doing is venting frustration that Disney is clamping down more and more, offering less and less while raising prices across the board. Availability of attractions is worse on average than it ever has been in terms of timing, scheduling - you only get 3 until that last one runs out and if many/most of your options are for later in the day, your stuck, and this affects everyone, just on-property guests a little less.

Maybe this is how they always wanted fastpass to work but enough people didn't use it to make it happen, I don't know. Again, fastpass+ isn't the only problem in all of this but the overall experience for all guests I feel has started to fall.

Passholder or not, the value proposition for the parks in general has gone down considerably in my eyes. Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll go down low enough that I stop going and you don't have to see me post about it (the ignore feature also does wonders, I'm told).

Maybe to you, Disney hasn't gotten worse. If that's the case, I'm happy for you - genuinely.

 

[asianway]

Go to Key West during Fantasy Fest... espcially later at night at the corner of Duval and Greene Street....when they turn the streetlights off...It gets pretty wild.

I actually ported there on the Magic one year on the Sunday of the fest. They skip KW that week now because snowflakes. Since we left at sunset, craziest thing I saw was ***less chaps

 

[MrPromey]

And what about blocking out APs when something new opens? In your entire post you never once talked about the whole point of the thread.

To an extent, they've already done this. Look at the dates of all the new attractions first opened this year (save for the Junglebook show). They happened conveniently inside the blackout window of the new silver pass that many previous annual passholders moved to after Disney changed the ticket structure.

They can basically do this kind of thing without making it "official" by continuing to time the opening of new attractions around this schedule. As far as crowd control, we received something in the mail prodding us to upgrade our passes to experience these new things so I'm not sure crowd control is by itself, their singular, noble goal.

I think the fact that they'd be so blatant and heavy handed about how they'd go about trying to do it in the future though, is what irks me. It's like they're not even trying to pretend we're valued customers, anymore. Just do away with the passes or drive them over a grand like they did at Disneyland if they really want to keep us out, you know?

... But they're a business. They can do what they want within the laws of supply and demand and, speaking of businesses, (or at least, things that cost people money to operate) one net positive about all our back-and-forth on all of this is Steve is getting some good page views so he's hopefully getting a little ad revenue off our bickering.

 

[Mike S]

To an extent, they've already done this. Look at the dates of all the new attractions first opened this year. They happened conveniently inside the blackout window of the new silver pass that many previous annual passholders moved to after Disney changed the ticket structure.

They can basically do this kind of thing without making it "official" by continuing to time the opening of new attractions around this schedule. As far as crowd control, we received something in the mail prodding us to upgrade our passes to experience these new things so I'm not sure crowd control is by itself, their singular, noble goal.

I think the fact that they'd be so blatant and heavy handed about how they'd go about trying to do it in the future though, is what irks me. It's like they're not even trying to pretend we're valued customers, anymore. Just do away with the passes or drive them over a grand like they did at Disneyland if they really want to keep us out, you know?

... But they're a business. They can do what they want within the laws of supply and demand. Speaking of businesses, (or at least, things that cost people money to operate) one net positive about all our back-and-forth on all of this is Steve is getting some good page views so he's hopefully getting a little ad revenue off our bickering.

The thing though is that the way it was worded makes it sound like there would be additional block outs to whatever is there now just because something new opened. I could see Disney only making the highest pass allow you to not be blocked out.

 

[MrPromey]

The thing though is that the way it was worded makes it sound like there would be additional block outs to whatever is there now just because something new opened. I could see Disney only making the highest pass allow you to not be blocked out.

Yep! At least the way they did it this year, it wasn't quite so on the nose.

I'm not silly enough to think Disney would care one way or the other, if my family stopped going but it feels like being in a relationship with someone who's trying to passive-aggressively get you to break up with them because they don't want to be the one to call it off.

Regardless, they clearly have a capacity issue that they created on both ends and their solution seems to be to find ways of removing what they perceive as their least profitable guests. The fact that those least profitable guests may still be wildly profitable doesn't really matter when they are incapable of building out capacity in the next half decade to accommodate everyone.

Disneyland did it with a rip of the bandaid. TDO seems to want it both ways, though.

 

[pax_65]

Theme park annual passes continue to be a huge value compared to most other forms of top-tier entertainment. I just checked season tickets for the Magic and they are $1,300 for upper deck and between $5-7k for lower bowl.

My argument continues to be that the value for WDW APs continues to decline. The price is going up and restrictions/limitations are increasing.

The comparison to pro sports is tough because different people value different things. But to make more of a direct comparison, imagine paying for Magic season tickets year after year and the price keeps going up. Then you're told that effective next year, your ticket would no longer get you in to see the top 5 teams. So when LeBron and the Cavs come, you'd have to buy a separate ticket to see that game. Personally, I'd be very upset.

 

[xstech25]

My argument continues to be that the value for WDW APs continues to decline. The price is going up and restrictions/limitations are increasing.

The comparison to pro sports is tough because different people value different things. But to make more of a direct comparison, imagine paying for Magic season tickets year after year and the price keeps going up. Then you're told that effective next year, your ticket would no longer get you in to see the top 5 teams. So when LeBron and the Cavs come, you'd have to buy a separate ticket to see that game. Personally, I'd be very upset.

You buy the cheaper version if you want the lower price with not all the games, if you want all the games you pay a higher price. How is that any different?

 

[pax_65]

You buy the cheaper version if you want the lower price with not all the games, if you want all the games you pay a higher price. How is that any different?

I guess it's no different, both are bad if you previously received all those games/attractions for the price of the ticket/pass with no upcharge.

 

[Mike S]

Yep! At least the way they did it this year, it wasn't quite so on the nose.

I'm not silly enough to think Disney would care one way or the other, if my family stopped going but it feels like being in a relationship with someone who's trying to passive-aggressively get you to break up with them because they don't want to be the one to call it off.

Regardless, they clearly have a capacity issue that they created on both ends and their solution seems to be to find ways of removing what they perceive as their least profitable guests. The fact that those least profitable guests may still be wildly profitable doesn't really matter when they are incapable of building out capacity in the next half decade to accommodate everyone.

Disneyland did it with a rip of the bandaid. TDO seems to want it both ways, though.

WDW doesn't have an AP problem like DL does so they really shouldn't be trying to apply the same strategy. You're right in that DL is simply ripping off the band-aid and they're doing it in more ways than one. In addition to the AP changes they're going through a time of great expansion even after DCA 4 years ago. Star Wars, Frozen in Fantasyland, Marvel*, and the possibility of getting the Mickey ride that's rumored to replace GMR as well. Not to mention numerous updates to entertainment like Fantasmic 2.0 next year. A lot of this is pure large scale expansion rather than replacements which is overall good regardless of what one might personally feel about these projects. I wish WDW had this many large scale capacity boosting projects looming and it desperately needs them.

*The rumored land, not just GotG over ToT.

 

[betty rose]

And what about blocking out APs when something new opens? In your entire post you never once talked about the whole point of the thread.

What happens if Disney opens something new in each park? Does that mean you bought an AP and can't go into the park's at all?

 

[Tony the Tigger]

It's sad that more people don't realize that. There are great museums.. Great "teachable moments". My son developed a love for lighthouses whole in KW, he's also semi obsessed with the overseas railroad (I modified the story a bit) and it opened up the door to learn about Flagler and Florida's history of development... And of course- pirates and ship wrecks! Most of all marine life though, I'm an avid diver..I took him to Dry Tortugas for his first "big" snorkeling trip..I can't wait til he is old enough to dive!!

I'm jealous of your residence..I love Whitehead St!!

Ok sorry.. Back on topic.

Robert the doll.

 

[devoy1701]

I laughed when they said passholders get fantastic discounts on food and merch. I think the passholder discount is 10 percent. That's hardly anything. I remember passholders used to get a 50 percent discount at the miniature golf courses but that was changed to 15 percent a few years ago. Oh Disney. You so greedy.

The discount also barely applies anywhere so I've just stopped asking.

Unlike at DisneyLAND where every CM at restaurants and food service always ask the question "Are you an AP?" Asking a simple question like that goes a long way.

As for perks and discounts for APs they pretty much have cut everything they used to be. I can't imagine them adding anything now that will be worthy of making me wanting to buy one again.

Hey, i'm just glad they finally give a discount at all merch locations...even if it is just 10%. I remember when it used to just be at the WoD store (prior to the refurb/expansion) and it was a worse experience than shopping at IKEA.

 

[jakeman]

Yeah, you're still not getting it. When you can go 365 days a year and you can't get a fastpass for 7 dwarfs mine train for any of them and the wait time is always over an hour... and it's been open for more than two years, that's a bit frustrating. Before fastpass+, do you know what attractions you couldn't get a same day fastpass for were? The ones that weren't in operation. If you wanted a fastpass for Test Track and Soarin' on the same day, by golly, you could get one, too but that's not even my complete point.

Mostly, I was originally trying to say that a passholder won't be causing a whole lot of trouble with wait times for these new attractions, anyway. Since our trips aren't once-in-a-lifetime we aren't likely to do a 2+ hour wait more than once (if at all) for an under five minute attraction and being unable to get fastpasses until 30 days before our visit almost guarantees we won't be taking fastpass availability away from normal resort guests since they'll be long gone for these popular attractions well before we have access to them, anyway. As a customer, them floating the waters to even take that 2+ hour wait option away is aggravating - even if it wasn't an option you were going to consider because it is Disney acknowledging that they are thinking of you when they do all this stuff but not in a good way.

In addition, attractions that previously had little to no wait, now do. Of course, the parks are also seeing record attendance that they don't have enough attraction capacity to acomodate fully (but that's another issue). You kind of grabbed hold of fastpass alone which wasn't singularly my complaint. It had to do with wait times in general including for things that for decades, didn't consistently have them the way they do, now. Fastpass+ is what Disney holds as their answer to this which is what I was trying to explain, doesn't work as well as advertised to combat this.

I'm not making any "righteous stand" but it's obvious that Fastpass+ has had a net effect of increasing wait times (now called standby wait times) throughout property. It's also forced people without early access to fastpass selection to plan full stretches of days around fastpass availability or wait in longer lines than previous, to do attractions. This means criss-crossing parks a lot to try to do things and planning meals around availability windows for attractions - it's overall a much worse experience.

Not sure if you've ever planned a visit on shorter notice on the newer system or not but it's not as nice of a picture as you're painting.

As a family that visits typically on weekends because we aren't on vacation, availability in the middle of the day on a wednesday when a tropical storm is hitting our state, isn't a good example of something to convince me my thinking is wrong but today is when we're having the discussion so it "is what it is."

Just the same, I went onto Disney's site to see what a family of 3 could get for fastpasses today and as of this very moment (admittedly a little bit after your post) the things that are gone are: Festival of Fantasy Parade, Enchanted Tales with Belle, It's a Small World, Jungle Cruise, Meet Ariel at Her Grotto, Meet Cinderella, Meet Mickey, Meet Rapunzel, Meet Tinker Bell, Peter Pan's Flight, Seven Dwarfs Mine Train, Splash Mountain... Which is a little more than you mentioned but maybe a lot changed in that 22 minutes from when you posted.

Regardless of all of this, not participating in fastpass hurts you as a guest, not booking a fastpass as early as humanly possible hurts you as a guest (time options can quickly become a problem as dates draw nearer, even if passes don't completely disappear), having to choose between a limited set of popular attractions that can't be booked on the same day in some parks hurts you as a guest because all of this means that your only alternative option is to wait in a line that is now longer because people who got their pass 60 days out is in front of you, even if they haven't entered the queue yet.

You're welcome to say you don't feel sorry for those of us in this boat but don't act like we don't have a boat to be in and since my original point was about fastpasses for "new" attractions and not things like Spaceship Earth, I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

Mine train, still not available 30 days out. Frozen, (obviously) not available 30 days out. Everything associated with Avatar? Star Wars land when it finally opens? Unless something changes (like they bring back previews) or drastically different happens with these, it'll probably be the same. The fact that we can still do 20 year old attractions isn't exactly a good compromise for the people who have been doing those attractions for 20 years - first world problems and all but still not what you expect as a paying repeat guest.

What I'm doing is venting frustration that Disney is clamping down more and more, offering less and less while raising prices across the board. Availability of attractions is worse on average than it ever has been in terms of timing, scheduling - you only get 3 until that last one runs out and if many/most of your options are for later in the day, your stuck, and this affects everyone, just on-property guests a little less.

Maybe this is how they always wanted fastpass to work but enough people didn't use it to make it happen, I don't know. Again, fastpass+ isn't the only problem in all of this but the overall experience for all guests I feel has started to fall.

Passholder or not, the value proposition for the parks in general has gone down considerably in my eyes. Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll go down low enough that I stop going and you don't have to see me post about it (the ignore feature also does wonders, I'm told).

Maybe to you, Disney hasn't gotten worse. If that's the case, I'm happy for you - genuinely.

I grabbed on to the FP+ thing because you're wrong about that singular aspect.

I'm sorry that you don't believe that you are wrong, but you are.