Any Monorail Expansion Updates?

[devoy1701]

It's comes down to the fact that it won't make money. The bus system still works, at least for the moment. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The best time to replace a leaky roof is when it's sunny...not when it's storming....

You shouldn't wait till something stops working before you come up with a way to fix it.

 

[s8film40]

The other factor that should be considered is the potential increased attendance to the other two parks if the monorail were expanded. I cant tell you how many times I've seen someone realize they would have to take a bus to Animal Kingdom or the Studios and say oh well lets just go to Epcot or Magic Kingdom instead.

After all those are both "half day" parks for a reason.

 

[JPVonDrake]

Although I love the monorail myself, a few points have yet to be mentioned.

Most Guests, (and yes I do speak with dozens a day) want direct, fast transportation as their key concern. I am always asked if the buses at X Resort are shared with another resort or how many stops are there, and how long does it take to get from point A to point B.

The WDW Motorcoach System (buses) is dynamic. More buses can be used during peak times, and fewer during non-peak times of day. Each bus can share the same stations and still follow a different route based on need, and this route can change throughout the day.

On routes with multiple stops (for example Disney's Caribbean Beach Resort has 8 internal stops) once a bus is full it can proceed to its destination, and another bus can pick up where the last one left off (i.e. Bus A goes to station 1, 2, 3, then proceeds to Magic Kingdom, Bus B starts at station 4 and continues the route around Caribbean Beach.)

With a monorail, the train must make all the stops. To limit the number of stops there would need to be separate fixed routes to various destinations requiring transfers from train to train. Any proposed routes would require multiple transfers or multiple stops.

The most common route I hear suggested is add a monorail from Epcot to Disney's Animal Kingdom Park with a stop at Disney's Hollywood Studios, that way all the parks are connected for park hopping. This sounds great in theory and it's cost effective as it is only adding one route.

Now a Guest wants to get from Magic Kingdom to Animal Kingdom to make their 5 PM dinner reservation at Yak & Yeti. They wait in line to board the Magic Kingdom Monorail to TTC. Then disembark and wait in a second line to board the monorail from TTC to Epcot. Then disembark again and wait in a third line to board the monorail from Epcot to Animal Kingdom. They stay on board but still have to wait while the monorail makes it's stop at Hollywood Studios before heading to its final destination at Animal Kingdom.

With three transfers and one additional stop, during peak travel dates the entire trip could well take a couple of hours factoring in wait times for each train and stop. Meaning to make that 5 PM dinner the family would need to leave Magic Kingdom before 2 PM. (Got to think of walk time too.) Currently this same family could board a bus at Magic Kingdom and proceed directly to Animal Kingdom, arriving for dinner in about 30 to 40 minutes.

***

Another factor not mentioned is when building a new monorail route much of Walt Disney World Resort sits on wetlands and protected conservation areas. Building a fixed beam system would required the beam to be routed around these areas and adding extra supporting and foundations for the pylons, driving up costs. It would be a lot less expensive to add roadways (and bridges over the protected areas.)

As different areas of Walt Disney World Resort are expanded over time, (new parks added, new resorts, etc.) roads can be temporarily or permanently moved or re-routed where with a fixed beam system it would not be as easy or in-expensive.

Just things to consider.

 

[GenerationX]

While the monorails are not going to be expanded anytime soon, the resort-wide slingshot system has (finally!) been given the green light. Each resort, park, and reasonably attractive photo spot will be equipped with a massive sling shot and a huge net. If a shot guest misses the net, the flight is free.

 

[s8film40]

Although I love the monorail myself, a few points have yet to be mentioned.

Most Guests, (and yes I do speak with dozens a day) want direct, fast transportation as their key concern. I am always asked if the buses at X Resort are shared with another resort or how many stops are there, and how long does it take to get from point A to point B.

The WDW Motorcoach System (buses) is dynamic. More buses can be used during peak times, and fewer during non-peak times of day. Each bus can share the same stations and still follow a different route based on need, and this route can change throughout the day.

This is a daily occurrence at WDW monorails are taken offline after the morning rush and more are added in the evening as needed.

On routes with multiple stops (for example Disney's Caribbean Beach Resort has 8 internal stops) once a bus is full it can proceed to its destination, and another bus can pick up where the last one left off (i.e. Bus A goes to station 1, 2, 3, then proceeds to Magic Kingdom, Bus B starts at station 4 and continues the route around Caribbean Beach.)

Monorails are quite capable of doing this also its just not as common, the monorails don't usually fill up at the first stop.

With a monorail, the train must make all the stops. To limit the number of stops there would need to be separate fixed routes to various destinations requiring transfers from train to train. Any proposed routes would require multiple transfers or multiple stops.

The most common route I hear suggested is add a monorail from Epcot to Disney's Animal Kingdom Park with a stop at Disney's Hollywood Studios, that way all the parks are connected for park hopping. This sounds great in theory and it's cost effective as it is only adding one route.

Now a Guest wants to get from Magic Kingdom to Animal Kingdom to make their 5 PM dinner reservation at Yak & Yeti. They wait in line to board the Magic Kingdom Monorail to TTC. Then disembark and wait in a second line to board the monorail from TTC to Epcot. Then disembark again and wait in a third line to board the monorail from Epcot to Animal Kingdom. They stay on board but still have to wait while the monorail makes it's stop at Hollywood Studios before heading to its final destination at Animal Kingdom.

With three transfers and one additional stop, during peak travel dates the entire trip could well take a couple of hours factoring in wait times for each train and stop. Meaning to make that 5 PM dinner the family would need to leave Magic Kingdom before 2 PM. (Got to think of walk time too.) Currently this same family could board a bus at Magic Kingdom and proceed directly to Animal Kingdom, arriving for dinner in about 30 to 40 minutes.

This is very true, if a monorail expansion is ever done it would need to be well thought out to avoid situations like this. Ideally you would have one monorail route servicing all four parks and other transportation radiating from those hubs.

***

Another factor not mentioned is when building a new monorail route much of Walt Disney World Resort sits on wetlands and protected conservation areas. Building a fixed beam system would required the beam to be routed around these areas and adding extra supporting and foundations for the pylons, driving up costs. It would be a lot less expensive to add roadways (and bridges over the protected areas.)

This is a common myth years of planning and studies have been done to decide what can and should be built where throughout WDW. Disney calls this the master land use plan, these plans take into account all future expansion, I have copies of some of these myself and I can say for a fact they do account for monorail expansion on "suitable to build" land.

As different areas of Walt Disney World Resort are expanded over time, (new parks added, new resorts, etc.) roads can be temporarily or permanently moved or re-routed where with a fixed beam system it would not be as easy or in-expensive.

Just things to consider.

I think you will notice that very few roads have ever been rerouted through WDW everything for the most part has been a result of years of planning and only minor adjustments have been made.

 

[jmvd20]

I have always wondered where the numbers that get tossed around for monorail construction estimates come from. We have heard everything from a few million to well over 100 million.

One of the first steps in estimating a project is to first see how much similar projects have cost to complete. These are not estimated costs but actual costs such as:

Naha, Okinawa - 7.8 miles @ 533 million = 68 million per mile

Kuala Lumpur - 5.3 miles @311 million = 59 million per mile

Las Vegas, initial - 3.6 miles @ 352 million = 98 million per mile

Las Vegas, extension - 3.1 @ 337 million = 109 million per mile

Seattle Green Line - 14 miles @1.25 billion = 87 million per mile

Of course these numbers cannot be translated directly to any expansions of the WDW monorail as these costs do include acquiring land and some include large tunnels or traversing large waterways. Also the number of stations, any switching tracks etc... can effect the costs tremendously.

 

[phlydude]

Keep in mind that a large portion of the costs of any monorail expansion is going to be tied up in the footings.
The Epcot expansion saw footings sinking into the ground and having to be re-engineered, adding substantially to the cost.

Groundwater is high and footings need to be substantial.

This is why you more than likely won't see monorail expansion.

 

[JPVonDrake]

Let me clarify my points...

The WDW Motorcoach System (buses) is dynamic. More buses can be used during peak times, and fewer during non-peak times of day. Each bus can share the same stations and still follow a different route based on need, and this route can change throughout the day.

This is a daily occurrence at WDW monorails are taken offline after the morning rush and more are added in the evening as needed.

Although the number of trains on the system can be increased or decreased based on demand, for safety reasons, the entire beam-way must be stopped whenever a switch-track is engaged to add or remove trains.

My main point in this statement was multiple bus routes can share the same small station, a monorail uses a fixed beam meaning only one route can be followed. Just look at the footprint needed at TTC for just three beam-ways, compared to the footprint of the bus stations at Magic Kingdom that can service over 20+ different routes as needed throughout the day.

An example modified routing is the All Star Resorts. They can use three separate direct buses, one from each hotel, during the peak morning and evening demand hours, but share a single multi-stop route during the non-peak afternoon hours.

If a bus breaks down, other buses can be re-routed around the stalled bus to continue service. If a monorail breaks down, the entire beam-way must be shut down until the down train is removed from the rail.

On routes with multiple stops (for example Disney's Caribbean Beach Resort has 8 internal stops) once a bus is full it can proceed to its destination, and another bus can pick up where the last one left off (i.e. Bus A goes to station 1, 2, 3, then proceeds to Magic Kingdom, Bus B starts at station 4 and continues the route around Caribbean Beach.)

Monorails are quite capable of doing this also its just not as common, the monorails don't usually fill up at the first stop.

Aside from the Guest Services factors involved, for steady traffic flow reasons a monorail cannot simply just skip a stop along the way without backing up all the other trains on the same beam-way.

With three transfers and one additional stop, during peak travel dates the entire trip could well take a couple of hours factoring in wait times for each train and stop. Meaning to make that 5 PM dinner the family would need to leave Magic Kingdom before 2 PM. (Got to think of walk time too.) Currently this same family could board a bus at Magic Kingdom and proceed directly to Animal Kingdom, arriving for dinner in about 30 to 40 minutes.

This is very true, if a monorail expansion is ever done it would need to be well thought out to avoid situations like this. Ideally you would have one monorail route servicing all four parks and other transportation radiating from those hubs.

Again this cannot be done without multiple stops or multiple transfers. Just like for air flights, feedback from our Guests shows they want fast, direct non-stop routes to their destination. This would simply not possible on a fixed rail system with the many entertainment choices at Walt Disney World today. Also on your next visit, note the number of Guest using direct Park to Park transportation compared to Park to Resort routes. A fixed high capacity system simply is not need for the majority of the day.

Another factor not mentioned is when building a new monorail route much of Walt Disney World Resort sits on wetlands and protected conservation areas. Building a fixed beam system would required the beam to be routed around these areas and adding extra supporting and foundations for the pylons, driving up costs. It would be a lot less expensive to add roadways (and bridges over the protected areas.)

This is a common myth years of planning and studies have been done to decide what can and should be built where throughout WDW. Disney calls this the master land use plan, these plans take into account all future expansion, I have copies of some of these myself and I can say for a fact they do account for monorail expansion on "suitable to build" land.

True, studies have been made to find "suitable land" for possible beam-way routes, but to date they have yet to be utilized for reasons stated above. Foundation pylons have even been built into Epcot during it original construction for a proposed monorail expansion that can no longer be utilized due to changes in land use over the years. The Swan and Dolphin and the other Disney owned Resorts in the Epcot Resort Area were not part of the future expansion plans in 1980 when Epcot was being built. An Industrial Park was originally planned for this site.

The Master Land Use Plan has changed dynamically in the Resorts 37 year history and is still in a constant state of change. The master land use plans have called for a variety of different resorts, an airport, a mall and an industrial park that were never built. Also new parks such as Disney's Animal Kingdom and Disney's Hollywood Studios were not added to the master plan until a few years prior to their construction. The original Master Land Use Plan called for only 1 Theme Park to ever be built.

I think you will notice that very few roads have ever been rerouted through WDW everything for the most part has been a result of years of planning and only minor adjustments have been made.

Few Guest roadways have been completely moved, but several have been re-routed or completely redesigned. The interchange of World Drive and 192 has been dramatically changed several times over the years. Also many parts of Buena Vista Drive has been altered over the years, as has Epcot Center Drive and World Drive. Some backstage roads have been moved or completely removed since 1971.

Again while an expanded monorail system would be nice, current guest traffic patterns and expectations, return on investment, and the uncertainty of future expansion makes it very unlikely.

 

[tigglet83]

i read on another site that DL is adding a monorail from they're gate to east of the Aneheim Angel's stadium and its costing them 10 billion dollors.

 

[s8film40]

Let me clarify my points...





Although the number of trains on the system can be increased or decreased based on demand, for safety reasons, the entire beam-way must be stopped whenever a switch-track is engaged to add or remove trains.

My main point in this statement was multiple bus routes can share the same small station, a monorail uses a fixed beam meaning only one route can be followed. Just look at the footprint needed at TTC for just three beam-ways, compared to the footprint of the bus stations at Magic Kingdom that can service over 20+ different routes as needed throughout the day.

An example modified routing is the All Star Resorts. They can use three separate direct buses, one from each hotel, during the peak morning and evening demand hours, but share a single multi-stop route during the non-peak afternoon hours.

If a bus breaks down, other buses can be re-routed around the stalled bus to continue service. If a monorail breaks down, the entire beam-way must be shut down until the down train is removed from the rail.





Aside from the Guest Services factors involved, for steady traffic flow reasons a monorail cannot simply just skip a stop along the way without backing up all the other trains on the same beam-way.





Again this cannot be done without multiple stops or multiple transfers. Just like for air flights, feedback from our Guests shows they want fast, direct non-stop routes to their destination. This would simply not possible on a fixed rail system with the many entertainment choices at Walt Disney World today. Also on your next visit, note the number of Guest using direct Park to Park transportation compared to Park to Resort routes. A fixed high capacity system simply is not need for the majority of the day.





True, studies have been made to find "suitable land" for possible beam-way routes, but to date they have yet to be utilized for reasons stated above. Foundation pylons have even been built into Epcot during it original construction for a proposed monorail expansion that can no longer be utilized due to changes in land use over the years. The Swan and Dolphin and the other Disney owned Resorts in the Epcot Resort Area were not part of the future expansion plans in 1980 when Epcot was being built. An Industrial Park was originally planned for this site.

The Master Land Use Plan has changed dynamically in the Resorts 37 year history and is still in a constant state of change. The master land use plans have called for a variety of different resorts, an airport, a mall and an industrial park that were never built. Also new parks such as Disney's Animal Kingdom and Disney's Hollywood Studios were not added to the master plan until a few years prior to their construction. The original Master Land Use Plan called for only 1 Theme Park to ever be built.



Few Guest roadways have been completely moved, but several have been re-routed or completely redesigned. The interchange of World Drive and 192 has been dramatically changed several times over the years. Also many parts of Buena Vista Drive has been altered over the years, as has Epcot Center Drive and World Drive. Some backstage roads have been moved or completely removed since 1971.

Again while an expanded monorail system would be nice, current guest traffic patterns and expectations, return on investment, and the uncertainty of future expansion makes it very unlikely.

You make some good points but I think your drastically underestimating monorail technology.

"the entire beam-way must be stopped whenever a switch-track is engaged to add or remove trains."

This is simply not true, currently the switching process only affects the immediate area of the switch, the other trains on the line can continue to make their stops while this goes on up until they catch up to the train being switched. You can actually see this in action, every day when they move the extra train to the Epcot line midday. The train following the train being switched literally follows the switching train up to the switch and the switches are moved while the train is loading and unloading in the station. The only delay in this process is that guests are not boarded on the train going to Epcot otherwise there is no visible indication to the passengers that this is even going on. With that said, the potential is even greater...the Las Vegas system uses a much faster switching process. The switches in many cases are switched mere moments before the train crosses over the switch, no trains ever stop for the switch.

"My main point in this statement was multiple bus routes can share the same small station, a monorail uses a fixed beam meaning only one route can be followed. Just look at the footprint needed at TTC for just three beam-ways, compared to the footprint of the bus stations at Magic Kingdom that can service over 20+ different routes as needed throughout the day."

Yes and they all have to enter and exit through the same tiny road, I have seen the line of buses before and been glad to be on a monorail cruising by overhead.

"If a bus breaks down, other buses can be re-routed around the stalled bus to continue service. If a monorail breaks down, the entire beam-way must be shut down until the down train is removed from the rail."

Again this is not as serious of a problem as you make it out to be. The other trains can continue to cycle as the downed train is taken off line. Also there are several options to moving an out of service train, for example in many cases during peak times a malfunctioning train has been placed on the Epcot spur line (accesible to both express and Epcot lines) to avoid any interuptions in service.

"Aside from the Guest Services factors involved, for steady traffic flow reasons a monorail cannot simply just skip a stop along the way without backing up all the other trains on the same beam-way."

There are occasionally times when skipping a stop can be advantageous and yes this can be done. It's really simple, all that has to happen is the driver doesn't apply the brakes and the train will keep going, I've seen this done it works.

"Again while an expanded monorail system would be nice, current guest traffic patterns and expectations, return on investment, and the uncertainty of future expansion makes it very unlikely."

I think most guests would disagree with you. I know of many guests who only use the monorail because they just don't want to deal with the hassle of the buses. You are absolutely right on the "uncertainty of future expansion". I think this is the primary reason the monorails haven't been expanded, Disney has some rough times ahead and a lot of uncertainties.

 

[WaltsApprentice]

Are you a bus driver? Anyway, the gondalas I mention are the enclosed kind that you see at SKI resorts. Rain would not be a factor as long as the stations are enclosed. Also, they can be built to withstand high winds. Of course road flooding in the storms you mention can also effect busses. Nothing is foolproof. And who mentioned a monorail going through AK? I meant a station in the parking lot which in case you have not noticed is not too heavily themed.

No I'm not a bus driver...such a friendly statement. I thought when you said ski lifts like the ones similar to the lift at Blizzard beach ...I've never been skiing and those open benches have been the only ones I've seen in movies and in pictures sorry. But again like I said wouldn't it be kind of an eye sore if this was through out the whole resort area...and wouldn't you come across the same problems they also had with the sky rails at MK...but again it probably something completely different your talking about.

Agree that is a good point about how nothing is fool proof. And I did not say that you mentioned about the monorail system going to DAK. I thought I saw something that someone mention that why do they not expanded to DAK or DHS...or maybe I remember it from a different person complaining it and so I felt to mention it before some...what did you say...dumb Bus Driver mentioned it :lookaroun:zipit:....And yes the parking lot isn't to themed because it's to represent the human world fading away as you slowly come to the front where the jungle starts to take over...and with a monorail going in front of it...kinda ruins that effect...but Like I said if they really wanted to do it...they can do it like DLR and have the a station in the heart of the tackie Dino-Rama...Chester and hester can try and steal the idea and say the stole the idea of a Monorail...:lookaroun

 

[jt04]

No I'm not a bus driver...such a friendly statement. I thought when you said ski lifts like the ones similar to the lift at Blizzard beach ...I've never been skiing and those open benches have been the only ones I've seen in movies and in pictures sorry. But again like I said wouldn't it be kind of an eye sore if this was through out the whole resort area...and wouldn't you come across the same problems they also had with the sky rails at MK...but again it probably something completely different your talking about.

Agree that is a good point about how nothing is fool proof. And I did not say that you mentioned about the monorail system going to DAK. I thought I saw something that someone mention that why do they not expanded to DAK or DHS...or maybe I remember it from a different person complaining it and so I felt to mention it before some...what did you say...dumb Bus Driver mentioned it :lookaroun:zipit:....And yes the parking lot isn't to themed because it's to represent the human world fading away as you slowly come to the front where the jungle starts to take over...and with a monorail going in front of it...kinda ruins that effect...but Like I said if they really wanted to do it...they can do it like DLR and have the a station in the heart of the tackie Dino-Rama...Chester and hester can try and steal the idea and say the stole the idea of a Monorail...:lookaroun

The monorail I suggested from AKL to AK absolutely would not be visible in the park. Neither would the light rail. I understand the reason the AK parking lot is not themed but if a monorail station would ruin the "effect" they better do something with that honking bus terminal ASAP. Here is a link to the type of gondola lifts I am refering to. Definitely NOT a stupid idea and can easily be adapted as people movers at WDW. Not everywhere but there are places they could be very effective!

 

[RSoxNo1]

Accouting 101: No it won't add to profits, but it will cut down on operational expenses...hense...increase the profit margin.


as we talked about in another thread...why can't Reedy Creek help fund the expansion?

Are the monorails cheaper to run than the bus system? Where is the breaking point after the initial installation costs?

 

[jt04]

One thing that you guys are missing in all of your plans and propositions, is that you cannot have two separate monorail systems. To have two, you would have to purchases new monorails to run the tracks and build a new barn and one person had the idea of I believe three or four separate systems which would be unimaginable in initial building costs.

If they were going to build anything at all, it would be a loop that runs from the expanded Epcot station to DHS and DAK, which would require and beam shift built also so at night the monorail(s) running that route could return back home.

And peoples ideas of gondolas is stupid. That would make the skies of Disney World ugly.

That would be like saying you can't have diesel busses and water taxis because it's too expensive to have to maintain two different transportation systems. That is stupid (to quote you). See my post above, there are areas where the "lift gondolas" would fit in fine. And guess what? No diesel fumes!

 

[Lucky]

Bus drivers and gasoline costs a lot, as some people have noted, and buses pollute. But how many buses could you really eliminate with monorail expansion to DHS and DAK? Most buses are resort to park, not park to park.

You might eventually see a conversion to a bus fleet that doesn't burn gasoline.

One figure cited was that 37% of WDW's transportation rides are currently on monorail, not much below the percentage acocunted for by buses. But I wonder how much of that 37% is just traveling to MK from the parking lot and back. What's economical in the most densely-traveled part of WDW (MK, TTC, MK/monorail resorts) may not be economical in the rest of it.

 

[VillanovaBlue]

It'll be way cheaper for Disney to just gradually replace their Diesel and gas powered buses with hybrid/fuel cell ones as they become more regularly available...thus saving on fossil fuel costs, without nearly the initial cost of building/planning that a new monorail route/spur would entail...

Boring, I know, but economically "exciting" to say the least...

 

[Master Yoda]

Bus drivers and gasoline costs a lot, as some people have noted, and buses pollute. But how many buses could you really eliminate with monorail expansion to DHS and DAK? Most buses are resort to park, not park to park.
You might eventually see a conversion to a bus fleet that doesn't burn gasoline.

The thing is the monorails also pollute, just not directly. The monorails run on electricity which of course is typically produced by burning fossil fuels.

One figure cited was that 37% of WDW's transportation rides are currently on monorail, not much below the percentage acocunted for by buses. But I wonder how much of that 37% is just traveling to MK from the parking lot and back. What's economical in the most densely-traveled part of WDW (MK, TTC, MK/monorail resorts) may not be economical in the rest of it.

Like you I think these numbers are misleading. If you arrive to MK by car you have no other choice but to ride the ferry or the monorail to get to the park. It is like saying that 100% percent of the people that go to Castaway Cay arrive by boat so the boat must be the best way to get there.

 

[Lucky]

I am convinced that a 5th gate is unlikely.

There are already 5 gates. Epcot has a front gate and a back gate.

 

[jmvd20]

Keep in mind that a large portion of the costs of any monorail expansion is going to be tied up in the footings.
The Epcot expansion saw footings sinking into the ground and having to be re-engineered, adding substantially to the cost.

Groundwater is high and footings need to be substantial.

This is why you more than likely won't see monorail expansion.

Actually the foundations, beamway, columns, and track comprise less than 20% of the overall costs in the figures I stated above (not including tunnels or very large bridges). The actual foundations are always brought up to be a substantial part of the cost but in reality foundations make up a very small percentage of the overall costs.

Drilled caisson footings are quick and relatively easy to install as are pre-cast beamways and columns. The swampy soil or high water tables can be dealt with fairly easily using methods available to us today.

 

[jt04]

Actually the foundations, beamway, columns, and track comprise less than 20% of the overall costs in the figures I stated above (not including tunnels or very large bridges). The actual foundations are always brought up to be a substantial part of the cost but in reality foundations make up a very small percentage of the overall costs.

Drilled caisson footings are quick and relatively easy to install as are pre-cast beamways and columns. The swampy soil or high water tables can be dealt with fairly easily using methods available to us today.

They will never do it when there are alternative and (substantially) cheaper options IMO.