Anti- Autism Suit Against Disney Update

[thomas998]

They are not one size fits all - it's just they aren't custom to every site... so no matter what the rules, you can come up with combinations that err to the conservative.

That is a one size fits all... The very definition is something that doesn't change based on the differences in various sites.

 

[seasalticecream]

"Contending that autistic people have “an inability to comprehend the concept of time, defer gratification, and wait for rides[...]"

Uhh, what?? Autism is different from person to person. Everyone has a different experience with it.

I'm not gonna get into the rest of this because it's a lot and I don't know these people or their situation in detail, but that line bugged me.

 

[networkpro]

Sorry I don't want to harp on this but you wrong. The GAC card system was unique in that an effort was made to accommodate based on the nature of the disability, there was five or so different stamps for the cards.

The trouble with DAS is that there are no longer different types of stamps or cards. It is a blanket policy. Those using it are told to come back in roughly the same amount of time as the attraction queue, unless it is a fifteen minute queue or shorter. So autistic guests, who would have previously been given immediate access, now have to wait a significant period. Therein lies the issue.

So they become more than just a guest for the same price? How does that meet the legal criteria of " ADA affords them the right to equal experience/enjoyment as a guest without any disability " when the queue is part of the experience?

 

[jaklgreen]

"Contending that autistic people have “an inability to comprehend the concept of time, defer gratification, and wait for rides[...]"

Uhh, what?? Autism is different from person to person. Everyone has a different experience with it.

I'm not gonna get into the rest of this because it's a lot and I don't know these people or their situation in detail, but that line bugged me.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I don't understand how they can be making these blanket statements about all autistic people. If they want to say that their particular situation is XYZ, then that is fine. But this is important as it has to do with changing policy. I think they would look like more reasonable people if they outlined that the DAS does work for some but not for the more extreme cases. Then I would think that Disney would be more willing to work with them.

 

[flynnibus]

That is a one size fits all... The very definition is something that doesn't change based on the differences in various sites.

No, it's NOT one size fits all. It's just not INFINITE (aka fully customized) options. The building codes and regulations will vary based on the use and size of a facility. That is not 'one size fits all'.

I get you have a personal disapproval of how this all works - but that doesn't mean you get to redefine it to suit your view.

 

[flynnibus]

I think they would look like more reasonable people if they outlined that the DAS does work for some but not for the more extreme cases

But they aren't suing for other people's conditions... they are suing for theirs. It sounds selfish, but that's just how it works in the civil suits... they are suing for accommodations to fit their (extreme) needs -- not on principal for everyone.

 

[rcapolete]

If it were for employee parking you wouldn't have the ordering boxes set up by an employee parking spot... Not to mention I can't imagine it being possible for a person in a wheelchair to work at a Sonic Drive-in, if you've ever seen on you have servers that sometimes have to roller skate to an cars with their food orders, and the inside kitchens are setup for people standing constantly, not a place someone in a wheelchair would ever be able to work unless they made very significant changes to their facilities and processes.

So handicap people don't need to use the restroom in the building at Sonic? My mother shouldn't be able to watch her grandkids ice-skate? The need for a handicap parking spot is a completely different scenario than the issue Disney is facing. You need to show medical necessity as well as a doctors note in order to get a handicap placard which are state regulated. This is not the case with Disney.

 

[WDWTrojan]

So they become more than just a guest for the same price? How does that meet the legal criteria of " ADA affords them the right to equal experience/enjoyment as a guest without any disability " when the queue is part of the experience?

You’re partially right... they did become more than a regular guest for the same price. However, with the Guest Assistance Card program, in most cases, they weren’t offered a different experience than guests who had a Fastpass - they just didn’t have to wait for a return time. Now they have to wait roughly as long as the standby line before being allowed into the Fastpass queue.

This all goes back to the early days of Disney attractions years ago when queues featured lots of narrow switchbacks that made wheelchairs inaccessible. Guests in wheelchairs, which were a fraction of those who use them today, we’re permitted access via the exit usually. As people wised up and realized this loophole, people started renting wheelchairs. This led Disney to retrofit many of the queues to allow mobility devices.

Here’s the timeline of the programs:

???? - 2000: Guests who were in a wheelchair or who had a medical disability were generally permitted expedited boarding to attractions via the exit or other approved route.

2001 - 2013: Guest Assistance Cards attempted to curb this backdoor access by stamping cards based on the specific need of the guest. Sometimes this was giving them a shaded wait area, other times it was they could use the wheelchair entrance - only if the standby or Fastpass queue could not accommodate them. Autistic kids, and some others with qualifying medical conditions or if you complained enough, were given a pass that allowed them unlimited access to the Fastpass queue immediately. If Fastpass was unavailable, they went through the exits or other route. This was ripe for fraud and abuse, as guests learned what to say to get this card.

2013 - Present: All guests, regardless of need, get the same pass. It requires the guest to check in at an attention, then return after they’ve waited for roughly as long as the standby queue currently is. It’s better than using the standard Fastpass but not much better. Parents of autistic kids are upset because of the downgrade in service, as well as the fact they are forced to wait in noisy, crowded theme parks which could trigger meltdowns.

While there is some validity to the argument by autistic parents, Disney could curb this by offering quiet rooms or other alternatives. Beyond that, expecting immediate and repeated access to attractions is neither fair, nor equal. Disney did consult with numerous autism groups on the new program.

It should be noted, as far as I’m aware, that Disney still offers a better service for some guests but this is rare and for those who simply need to expedite their visit as quickly as possible.

 

[jaklgreen]

But they aren't suing for other people's conditions... they are suing for theirs. It sounds selfish, but that's just how it works in the civil suits... they are suing for accommodations to fit their (extreme) needs -- not on principal for everyone.

But they are making a blanket statement that autistic kids have no concept of time. We know that is not true for ALL autistic people.

 

[rcapolete]

I used to ski all the time in the northeast back in the 90's and never once saw a handicapped skier. And while I could understand a handicapped parking space in the large resorts where you had restaurants and bars at the resort I never understood the ones at the very small places that had nothing beyond skiing.

Funny I skied most Northeast ski slopes from Jersey to Vermont and have seen more than a handful of handicap skiers going back to when I started in 1991

 

[jaklgreen]

So handicap people don't need to use the restroom in the building at Sonic? My mother shouldn't be able to watch her grandkids ice-skate? The need for a handicap parking spot is a completely different scenario than the issue Disney is facing. You need to show medical necessity as well as a doctors note in order to get a handicap placard which are state regulated. This is not the case with Disney.

They give those handicapped placards to pretty much anyone who asks after a certain age. The doctor filled out the form for my dad and he is in better shape then I am. LOL

 

[rcapolete]

There is of course the option of having the person that has no mobility issues dropping off the person that has mobility issues at the entrance and then going to park, that would actually result in the person with mobility issues having to walk less than if they used the handicapped parking.

I really wish you take a step back and think before you post silly comments. So a person that may have a disability should be dropped off possible by themselves while someone else parks? What about kids or ederly or if the person drive themselves?

 

[rcapolete]

[QUOTE="thomas998, post: 8348913, member: 37158"]You do realize that the tables outside are intended as a place for the workers and not customers... I have even seen signs that state they will not serve walk-ups at the parking spots. They may have some Sonics somewhere in the world that actually have a place to order if you just walk up but I've never seen one. Which again leads to the question of why require special parking in a place where no one is expected to actually get out of their car.[/QUOTE] No it not. They have ordering boards there and the waiters deliver to the table. Done it numerous times. Would you like a shovle to help you dig out of some of your comments to?

 

[flynnibus]

But they are making a blanket statement that autistic kids have no concept of time. We know that is not true for ALL autistic people.

They are describing their condition and ensuring it's being applied to their disability, not just a personal thing... I think it's common sense to apply the understanding that not all medical conditions play out as binary equals in all people.

I think some people are taking things out of context. Nothing to frett over here...

 

[The Mom]

They give those handicapped placards to pretty much anyone who asks after a certain age. The doctor filled out the form for my dad and he is in better shape then I am. LOL

What is the magic age? Inquiring (old enough for SS and Medicare) minds want to know? Seriously, neither my husband nor I need nor want one. Or do we have to wait another decade until 80+?

 

[flynnibus]

Effectively you set a precedent so it will, in fact, be used to make rules about many people.

But for standing - you are suing for yourself... because that's who you can represent.. and why the briefs are written as they are

 

[ninjaprincesst]

The problem with what they are asking is not that anyone cares if autistic children get front of line access for every ride with no wait I think we can all agree with what these kids have to deal with day to day that perk is well deserved. The problem lies in that Disney first of all can not ask for proof of disability so anyone can say there kid is autistic, and here we go right back to the paid "disabled" people to get families front of the line access. And second you cant just offer it to autistic people instant access has to be given to all disabled people which then causes massive delays and lines for everyone else.

 

[Shouldigo12]

I would also like to add I have an issue with this idea the people have that all all autistic people have the same issues (having no concept of time, unable to to delay grafication, unable to wait in any line at the park) and the same severity of the disorder. In reality autism is a spectrum, ranging from " you would never know they had it unless they told you" to "they'll probably never be able to live independently". The parents in this lawsuit are using language that to me makes it sound like every autistic child is the latter which bothers me.

 

[thomas998]

Anyway, I have seen a number of people explain why the old system wouldn’t work and I just wanted to address some concerns:

1. Negatively impacting other guests. The old disabled lines were not overwhelmed with people clogging up rides. It’s a challenge to attend Disney with a person with a disability and usually there were only a handful of folks in the Park using this system (you would get to know all these folks on the days you visited as they were pretty easy to spot).

2. Kids wanting to ride Peter Pan 127 times in a row. Cast members used good judgement when dealing with the system. On the rare occasions a lined formed through the disabled entrance they would tell us it would be a little longer as they would only be taking one family at a time. I never recall going on the same ride back to back but if it would have been disruptive I think a cast member could have addressed this.

3. It’s unreasonable to expect instant front of the line access if your autistic. But this was literally the system that my cousin grew up with. It’s not a hare brain idea. It’s a system that Disney successfully used for years.

I can see why people could have different views. But just remember Disney used to be a magical place for my cousin...and now it’s a place he can’t really handle.

How would you feel if Disney changed a policy that made it all but impossible to attend anymore?

I think what you are not considering is that the number of kids diagnosed with autism has gone up dramatically. In 2000 it was 1 in 150 kids were diagnosed with autism in 2014 it went to 1 in 59.... I haven't seen any stats for 2017 but most likely it has gone up even further... So while giving instant access to a ride isn't going to cause a problem if a small number are doing it at some point you will have a problem when you start doubling the number that use it every 5 years or so... Add to that, while you did have some people hiring handicapped folks to act as a living super fastpass, it would also be possible for anyone wanting to game the system to simply say their kid was autistic. Disney could never question the parents and there is no special card you carry if you have an autistic kid, all it would take is unethical parents saying little Jack or Jill was autistic. So the system was doomed to failure at some point through a combination of increasing number of actual autistic kids and unethical guests just gaming it. It would be interesting to know the number of accommodations Disney was making on a daily basis over the years.... knowing that might give an indication of just how much of a problem it had become.

 

[Bronson55]

[QUOTE="thomas998, post: 8348913, member: 37158"]You do realize that the tables outside are intended as a place for the workers and not customers... I have even seen signs that state they will not serve walk-ups at the parking spots. They may have some Sonics somewhere in the world that actually have a place to order if you just walk up but I've never seen one. Which again leads to the question of why require special parking in a place where no one is expected to actually get out of their car.[/QUOTE] No it not. They have ordering boards there and the waiters deliver to the table. Done it numerous times. Would you like a shovle to help you dig out of some of your comments to?

Never been to one but using a restroom or washing of hands is not an option at Sonic? You can't do that sitting in your car.