Al Lutz: "Next Generation" RFID personalization coming to Fantasyland attractions

[WDW1974]

It will never cease to amaze me how Al Lutz gets these scoops, and just goes with it and puts it out there and trumps everyone.

He does it all the time for Disneyland, and on this one it involves WDW too.

I agree about Al in general, although I am not sure I'll give him a 'scoop' on this just yet.

While his story was largely dead on, it's not a done deal by a long shot ... anything that requires spending on WDW that isn't DVC-related is never a given and in this economy plus with Iger and Staggs more conservative than a certain Tina Fey look alike, a lot could happen first.

But, make no mistake, this IS what WDI would like to happen. And IF they can get John Lasseter pushing Iger for it (he simply ignores that Jay Rasulo even exists) it certainly could become a reality in some form.

This is just an extension of the whole Destination Disney concept ... the same thing that has brought you everything from Pal Mickey to the dreaded DDP.

Mickey wants to know where you are and what you are doing all the time ... and not to make your stay more magical (although some of the things this technology will allow can and will do that) ... but Mickey is more interested in how it will allow him to seperate you from more of your money.

Still, if this happens it will be a good thing for all guests. ... IF ...

~Al: DL's No. 1 Fanboi~

 

[TP2000]

I agree about Al in general, although I am not sure I'll give him a 'scoop' on this just yet.

While his story was largely dead on, it's not a done deal by a long shot ...

Well, no one else had ever mentioned it that I know of, and it was news to all of us, and it was exciting news at that, and now lots of folks are rushing in to "confirm" it or at least claim they already had knowledge of it, so I think Al earns yet another "scoop" title on this one. And it was just sort of a minor item from out in Florida buried amongst all the Disneyland news he talked about too! :lol:

Other folks that post on the Internet may have known about this NextGen thing, but they certainly never mentioned it like Al Lutz just did.

As for if it's a "done deal", Al certainly didn't say that. His exact words were...

"...if Walt Disney Imagineering (WDI) gets their way on another project. A big budget proposal fighting its way through the approval process in Orlando involves..."
-Al Lutz

Doesn't sound like a done deal to me, it sounds exactly what Al said it was, "fighting its way through the approval process in Orlando".

I wish it luck! :wave:

 

[WDW1974]

Well, no one else had ever mentioned it that I know of, and it was news to all of us, and it was exciting news at that, and now lots of folks are rushing in to "confirm" it or at least claim they already had knowledge of it, so I think Al earns yet another "scoop" title on this one. And it was just sort of a minor item from out in Florida buried amongst all the Disneyland news he talked about too! :lol:

Other folks that post on the Internet may have known about this NextGen thing, but they certainly never mentioned it like Al Lutz just did.

Al has mentioned many things before that weren't exactly close to being accurate ... a food court at the end of DL's Main Street, turning the Mark Twain into a shop and Paul Pressler wanting to close WDW's monorail system being three I can shoot off now for their sheer absurdity.

But I don't want to trash Lutz as I do admire the dude and his track record the last 3-4 years has been like 9-to-1 accurate.

I don't know much of what the Internet world is saying about this or not. But the fact this is being considered isn't a huge secret to many (both in Disney and outside).

Al is taking a chance by running it that if things don't go down (or more likely are delayed or watered down) that his critics will say he was full of it ... he isn't. But Jim Hill was accurate on the boutique animal park, but since it isn't happening now people will say he was wrong when he broke the story. He wasn't. Things change. What's accurate today may not be tomorrow.

As for if it's a "done deal", Al certainly didn't say that. His exact words were...

"...if Walt Disney Imagineering (WDI) gets their way on another project. A big budget proposal fighting its way through the approval process in Orlando involves..."
-Al Lutz

Doesn't sound like a done deal to me, it sounds exactly what Al said it was, "fighting its way through the approval process in Orlando".

I wish it luck! :wave:

I agree. And you really made my point for me. Al did qualify it with some LARGE 'ifs' ... many in the fan community tend to ignore those words like they aren't there.

~If I had a few billion ...~

 

[TP2000]

Al has mentioned many things before that weren't exactly close to being accurate ... a food court at the end of DL's Main Street, turning the Mark Twain into a shop and Paul Pressler wanting to close WDW's monorail system being three I can shoot off now for their sheer absurdity.

But I don't want to trash Lutz as I do admire the dude and his track record the last 3-4 years has been like 9-to-1 accurate.

Okay, good, because those three examples you chose are about a decade old now.

I'm not familiar with the WDW Monorail/Pressler thing, but the two Disneyland examples you've got are from the old alt.disney.disneyland days circa 1998 or so. I should know, as I was there on that old alt.disney.disneyland board reading Al under this same exact TP2000 screen-name using a 200Mhz Pentium desktop with a 56K dial-up modem! And TP2000 seemed like such a hip, forward-thinking Y2K name at that time too! :lol:

And if my memory of 1998 serves me correctly, Al didn't say that Pressler was considering turning the Mark Twain into a gift shop. Al claimed Pressler was considering turning the Mark Twain into a floating hot dog stand! Also, as I remember, there was an issue with a blue dress and a Presidential intern around that same time.

Paul Pressler left Disneyland in 1999, and left the Disney Company entirely in 2002. Al was on the warpath with Pressler in the late 1990's though, as you also seem to remember.

But if this NextGen thing "isn't a huge secret" in WDI, then why was Al the first to mention it? How come we always have to wait for Al to get the really juicy stuff? Just wondering that out loud I guess, don't really need an answer from anyone. But at least Florida got a juicy Al rumor this time, instead of him only focusing on Disneyland rumors.

 

[1disneydood]

Instead of a theme park you WOULD HAVE A GOD!!!
/LordoftheRings

Then guests wearing cloaks would stand around whipping out their precious's. Look, there is only one return and it's Of The Jedi.
/ClerksII

 

[Dayma]

I like the idea and I also like to idea of the Little Mermaid ride!

 

[MousDad]

RE: Lasseter and Iger

Until I see concrete evidence to suggest otherwise, I am not putting any hope in John Lasseter having any impact on the Orlando Parks. Those seem to be firmly in Jay's grip.

The only one, IMO, who can have any impact over Orlando is the only one who has any control over Jay, which is Iger. And the best way, IMO, for that to happen is for Bob to show up in the Orlando parks. Hence, my applause for his 2 trips.

 

[JCtheparrothead]

For those of you worried about Disney tracking you think of this. If they can track you then you can track you whole party or lost children...almost instantly.

 

[Disney05]

Interesting ideas and with lot's of ways to use it. Sounds like Big Brother or rather Big Mickey watching us?

 

[dreamfinder]

To chime in with the 1 PP who mentioned the possibility of "cloning" the RFID info, what happens if they do link hotel room doors to said RFID tags on your tickets/KKTW/whatever. All someone would need to do is meander around the hotels with a scanner in their bag, and grab the requests from peoples keys as they leave their rooms. Make a fake key, and then hop into their room and pilfer their stuff. (How many times have you walked by a bank of rooms and see someone leaving and then pass them by. It's that easy) Perhaps the member who works for the major RFID company can clear this up, but my understanding is that since RFID's are passive, and device that "requests" their data will get it, and no real way to auth if the data is coming from the original device or a different one. Even in something like a checksum is returned by the card, the scanner would have gotten that same checksum and the door wouldn't know any different. Unless the data returned by the RFID is somehow tied into a single use number generator, but then the cards are suddenly no longer disposable and have a much larger financial cost.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

To chime in with the 1 PP who mentioned the possibility of "cloning" the RFID info, what happens if they do link hotel room doors to said RFID tags on your tickets/KKTW/whatever. All someone would need to do is meander around the hotels with a scanner in their bag, and grab the requests from peoples keys as they leave their rooms. Make a fake key, and then hop into their room and pilfer their stuff. (How many times have you walked by a bank of rooms and see someone leaving and then pass them by. It's that easy) Perhaps the member who works for the major RFID company can clear this up, but my understanding is that since RFID's are passive, and device that "requests" their data will get it, and no real way to auth if the data is coming from the original device or a different one. Even in something like a checksum is returned by the card, the scanner would have gotten that same checksum and the door wouldn't know any different. Unless the data returned by the RFID is somehow tied into a single use number generator, but then the cards are suddenly no longer disposable and have a much larger financial cost.

True, but if people really want to get into your room, the electronic swipe keys currently used are easily defeated. Most amateur computer hackers could build something to get around one. And I never really leave anything horribly valuable in my hotel room anyway that isn't in a safe.

 

[GoCamels]

All someone would need to do is meander around the hotels with a scanner in their bag, and grab the requests from peoples keys as they leave their rooms.

My experience with the RFID doors this past weekend would make that rather impossible. You had to literally touch the wristband to the sensor to make it open, and the door then disengaged/turned off within a few seconds, not even long enough to get your hand off the handle or for that matter open very wide. The scanners at the regsiters also had to be almost touchingthe band to read the signal. IMHO, think the walking around with a scanner has already been defeated by these and other measures by the manufacturer.

 

[Figment632]

WHO CARES if Disney keeps track of you? What possible difference could it make to your vacation? Other than all of the benefits we've been discussing on this thread.
Disney could use that info to get better detailed data on park traffic. Can you imagine watching a giant park map with a light representing each person? Watching where they go throughout the day (which Disney already does to some extent) would be a great planning tool for them.

Im probaly just parinoid but I dont like my every movement being tracked. I never give them my finger print in the scanner at the front.

Besides that point it just doesnt seem so amazing to me. A lot of you guys think its a great idea but my reaction is this is the best they can come up with :shrug:

 

[dreamfinder]

My experience with the RFID doors this past weekend would make that rather impossible. You had to literally touch the wristband to the sensor to make it open, and the door then disengaged/turned off within a few seconds, not even long enough to get your hand off the handle or for that matter open very wide. The scanners at the regsiters also had to be almost touchingthe band to read the signal. IMHO, think the walking around with a scanner has already been defeated by these and other measures by the manufacturer.

To my understanding that is just due to the strength of the scanner on the door. Otherwise how could they use the same chip for passthrough scanning at the gates for FP, and then also at your door? And even if they did have the card be low power, and require almost contact, you just need someone to almost brush against you in the hallway. Completely possible if you/they are in a group. But, a real world example is the recent incident with the Charlie Cards at the MBTA in Boston. The cards had stored value for riding the public transit system, and those require you to almost touch it to a pad on the gate to get in, but some college students showed it was still possible to scan/hack the cards from a distance. Once again I yield to the board member who works for the RFID company to fill in blanks or correct me where necessary, but RFID tech to my understand isn't nearly as secure as most companies would like you to believe it is. Even the "uncrackable" passports proposed by the European Union were cracked within a day by researchers.

I could care less if they use the tech to track my aimless wandering within the parks (since they already know I'm there) and storing First name on the card doesn't bother me too much, (but parents may be creeped out about someone being able to learn your childs name) but the security issues do bother me.

 

[gustaftp]

My experience with the RFID doors this past weekend would make that rather impossible. You had to literally touch the wristband to the sensor to make it open, and the door then disengaged/turned off within a few seconds, not even long enough to get your hand off the handle or for that matter open very wide. The scanners at the regsiters also had to be almost touchingthe band to read the signal. IMHO, think the walking around with a scanner has already been defeated by these and other measures by the manufacturer.

Wrong. These can be fine-tuned. I recently spent a month in Switzerland, and to get on the lifts you have to have an RFID tag somewhere on your person. It could be deeply buried within your coat pockets, and the scanner would still pick it up.

Most places opt to have the access device to have a limited range with the FOB. But the distance they can be turned up to sensing is quite disturbing!

 

[DisneyJoe]

Im probaly just parinoid but I dont like my every movement being tracked. I never give them my finger print in the scanner at the front.

If you stay on property and have your ticket admission and credit card charging and possibly dining plan credits on your Key to the World card, this is what they could possibly now track:

- when you open your hotel room with the card
- when you charge your breakfast/lunch/dinner/snack to your room or use dining credits
- when you enter a theme park
- when you get a fastpass
- when you make purchases and charge them on the card
.....

 

[Figment632]

If you stay on property and have your ticket admission and credit card charging and possibly dining plan credits on your Key to the World card, this is what they could possibly now track:

- when you open your hotel room with the card
- when you charge your breakfast/lunch/dinner/snack to your room or use dining credits
- when you enter a theme park
- when you get a fastpass
- when you make purchases and charge them on the card
.....

Yea I said im problay just parnoid and have watched to many Jame Bond films.

Are they going to change the theme of FL as well? Like change the theme and decor?

 

[PaisleyMF]

There are some good examples of RFID on wikipedia, and all the controversies surrounding it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID#Passports_2

 

[hokielutz]

I would be a little concerned about the cost. Not so much of the setup, but of the issuance of the cards.

I did a little internet research on this. And unlike magnetic strip technology for the current tickets and room passes, RFID cards, on the consumer market can cost, in bulk, between $4-$5 per card. Compare that to a regular PVC magnetic stripe card which is sold for about $0.10 to $0.25 per card.

This could really come back and bite the guests in the you know what, especially if the card is lost or stolen. I would seriously doubt that Disney would eat the cost of these cards/tokens/key-fobs, since issuance and replacement costs could easily be $5-$10 per person. So I could see some surcharges added to the cost of tickets and reservations, and mandatory replacement cost fees charged for replacement tickets.

Let's assume that the WDW property has an average of 50,000 unique visitors each week of the year. (I don't know the figure, just assuming for onsite and offsite guest totals) And each guest is replaced with a new guest every 7 days in the park. (one week vacations) .
So 50,000 visitors X 52 weeks a year X $8 ticket cost = $20.8 Million cost for ticket cards in one year.

Could be more, could be a little less, but not by much.

 

[Master Yoda]

I would be a little concerned about the cost. Not so much of the setup, but of the issuance of the cards.

I did a little internet research on this. And unlike magnetic strip technology for the current tickets and room passes, RFID cards, on the consumer market can cost, in bulk, between $4-$5 per card. Compare that to a regular PVC magnetic stripe card which is sold for about $0.10 to $0.25 per card.

This could really come back and bite the guests in the you know what, especially if the card is lost or stolen. I would seriously doubt that Disney would eat the cost of these cards/tokens/key-fobs, since issuance and replacement costs could easily be $5-$10 per person. So I could see some surcharges added to the cost of tickets and reservations, and mandatory replacement cost fees charged for replacement tickets.

Let's assume that the WDW property has an average of 50,000 unique visitors each week of the year. (I don't know the figure, just assuming for onsite and offsite guest totals) And each guest is replaced with a new guest every 7 days in the park. (one week vacations) .
So 50,000 visitors X 52 weeks a year X $8 ticket cost = $20.8 Million cost for ticket cards in one year.

Could be more, could be a little less, but not by much.

If you remember correctly there was a time when a recordable CD cost $8 on the retail market. Now they cost around a dime. The simple reason for that is the increase in production and improvement of production methods due to high demand. The same thing was true with DVD-R discs and soon will be true of BR-R discs. Once RFID demand increases the price per unit will fall like a rock.