Al Lutz: "Management must stop bending over to pick up pennies as dollars fly over their heads"

[andre85]

As for Al and the Star Tours thing, I thought the dispute was about whether or not he (rightly) criticized TDO. Not whether or not he ever (wrongly) recanted, which he shouldn't do because he was right all along.

It was never about criticizing TDO. Recant may not be the best choice of word, but he should absolutely have updated the situation. As from a reader's perspective, it seems he was wrong. If he was right, he should have updated the situation because 1) The situation did change. And 2) Why did it change.

Instead, he ignored it. Which is especially weird since he made such a big deal about it, and yet never once followed-up.

 

[Funmeister]

It really shouldn't be that hard if you understand how to use Google. And it's not like he even writes that many columns.

Anyways, even if you were to, I very much doubt you'd find what you claim considering he didn't say what you think he did.

Seriously? You are going to turn this into a ing match based on what someone may or may not have put in print in a blog versus the fact that it happend anyway? This is not my fight but I would say you have as much responsibility going through ALL of the posts that he did'nt say it that '74 has of proving it! Base on the track record of '74 I would not try to bust his coconuts over a small technical blurb.

I challenge you to contact Al yourself and ask him if he did rather than you asking the world to prove things to you. Because I myself cannot prove to you in writing that the Earth is round....you get the point.

 

[andre85]

Seriously? You are going to turn this into a ing match based on what someone may or may not have put in print in a blog versus the fact that it happend anyway?

Wait, what? What happened? The issue is purely whether Al posted about the changed Star Tours plans. I've already read through his columns and can confirm he didn't, which is why I asked WDW for a cite since he seems to think he did.

I challenge you to contact Al yourself and ask him if he did rather than you asking the world to prove things to you. Because I myself cannot prove to you in writing that the Earth is round....you get the point.

I don't need to contact him because I KNOW he didn't. And actually, it would be demonstrability easy to prove the Earth is round in writing with a single cite. Here, I'll do it now:
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/09/21/who-discovered-the-earth-is-ro/

 

[Funmeister]

Another Star Tours II fact....

It is a FACT (not a well known fact or a known fact at all publicly) that shortly after ST2 opened at the Studios it did not give the park the attendance boost expected. The lack of attendance caused marketing and sales to go into freak out mode leading to the cancellation of a water parks ad push to the purchasing of nine additional billboards and lynx bus advertising in the local market. This was in ADDITION to the media already in the market from the re-opening. I cannot point this out word for word in a blog...but that does not mean it is not true.

 

[andre85]

I cannot point this out word for word in a blog...but that does not mean it is not true.

You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about what my point is. It's not about whether what Al posted happened or not at some point in time. It's about what he didn't post after, showing his bias.

 

[Funmeister]

Wait, what? What happened? The issue is purely whether Al posted about the changed Star Tours plans. I've already read through his columns and can confirm he didn't, which is why I asked WDW for a cite since he seems to think he did.




I don't need to contact him because I KNOW he didn't. And actually, it would be demonstrability easy to prove the Earth is round in writing with a single cite. Here, I'll do it now:
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/09/21/who-discovered-the-earth-is-ro/

Hhmmm...what are you REALLY upset about? There has to be something...I have never seen a post of someone ready to defend the company for wanting a watered down version based on what someone may or may not have mentioned in a blog post. I hope you find peace in a butterbeer.

 

[andre85]

Hhmmm...what are you REALLY upset about? There has to be something...I have never seen a post of someone ready to defend the company for wanting a watered down version based on what someone may or may not have mentioned in a blog post. I hope you find peace in a butterbeer.

Where have I defended WDW? You really don't seem to understand my point at all and it's a little annoying that you continue to poke at a Strawman. I've already explained my position, which you can find in the above posts.

 

[Skyway]

Not quite sure how this thread drifted into the Star Tours controversy. But it brings up a good point.

From what I understand, ST 2.0 hasn't done a thing to help DHS financially or boost attendance. If that's true, TDO could certainly make the argument that they were right and Burbank was wrong. ST 2.0 has not gotten any return on investment. WDW's profit would have been better off without ST since the revenue is presumably the same as it was before the refurb, but without the millions in expenses for the upgrade.

Of course, we all see the big picture. DHS needed so much more than the tiny ST band-aid. And if TDO had killed the project knowing it would produce no short-term gains, then the park would be all the more stale in 5 years.

But obviously TDO (and Burbank as well) is mostly concerned about quarterly results. In that respect, ST hurt the company. Does TDO have a stronger hand in future TDO-vs-Burbank battles when they can point to ST? And will that give TDO any kind of voice in final approval of Avatar since Al and others seem to believe Burbank's ego is the only driving force behind the project?

 

[flynnibus]

It was never about criticizing TDO. Recant may not be the best choice of word, but he should absolutely have updated the situation. As from a reader's perspective, it seems he was wrong. If he was right, he should have updated the situation because 1) The situation did change. And 2) Why did it change.

This is the standard MO with Al. You've claimed to read all his articles.. you should know this is the case. Never acknowledge past articles unless it's to pat yourself on the back. That's Al's way.. always has been.

 

[Rasvar]

ST2 didn't provide a boost partially because most people don't even know it happened. I rarely see an ad for the parks beyond Disney owned ventures. Their marketing is pathetic. How many ST2 ads were ever shown during showings of Star Wars:The Clone Wars (a somewhat successful franchise) on Cartoon Network? I never saw any. That show has an interesting demographic of families watching it because parents and children both know Star Wars. But, if I had my way, the entire TWDC company marketing department would have been fired a long time ago. I have not seen competent work from them in about six years. However, I don't know what the marketing was like for Cars Land.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Not quite sure how this thread drifted into the Star Tours controversy. But it brings up a good point.

From what I understand, ST 2.0 hasn't done a thing to help DHS financially or boost attendance. If that's true, TDO could certainly make the argument that they were right and Burbank was wrong. ST 2.0 has not gotten any return on investment. WDW's profit would have been better off without ST since the revenue is presumably the same as it was before the refurb, but without the millions in expenses for the upgrade.

Of course, we all see the big picture. DHS needed so much more than the tiny ST band-aid. And if TDO had killed the project knowing it would produce no short-term gains, then the park would be all the more stale in 5 years.

But obviously TDO (and Burbank as well) is mostly concerned about quarterly results. In that respect, ST hurt the company. Does TDO have a stronger hand in future TDO-vs-Burbank battles when they can point to ST? And will that give TDO any kind of voice in final approval of Avatar since Al and others seem to believe Burbank's ego is the only driving force behind the project?

Maybe TDO sabotoged any kind of impact ST2 would have because they were whiny sore losers... So to prove they were right and cutting budgets is the only way to succeed, they didn't promote ST2 outside of, I don't know, WDW... There was not 1 ST2 commercial here in NJ yet I saw Potter commercials for Universal on a daily basis, even now that the land is on its 2nd year and still pulling in massive attendance...

IF Star Tours 2 was promoted as it should have been, who knows what it could have done for DHS in attendance.. No, not a 30% jump like Potter did for IOA, but I am sure there would have been a bigger impact than there was...

 

[imagineer boy]

Al was spot-on for this article. An Avatar land does not make sense from a creative or a buisness stand point.

ST2 didn't provide a boost partially because most people don't even know it happened. I rarely see an ad for the parks beyond Disney owned ventures. Their marketing is pathetic. How many ST2 ads were ever shown during showings of Star Wars:The Clone Wars (a somewhat successful franchise) on Cartoon Network? I never saw any. That show has an interesting demographic of families watching it because parents and children both know Star Wars. But, if I had my way, the entire TWDC company marketing department would have been fired a long time ago. I have not seen competent work from them in about six years. However, I don't know what the marketing was like for Cars Land.

This is something I've been saying for years. Not only is Disney's marketing misrepresentive of the product (making the parks look like they are ONLY for kids) but very infrequent and not well spread too.

 

[GeneralKnowledge]

He's probably inappropriately associating humor with elements FROM the film like 'Im on top of the world!' moment - to mean making fun of the film as a whole.

Yeah the didn't really come across correctly. I didn't mean that the movie is made fun of for being bad. I meant it's presence in current popular culture is more seated in parodies and things like that. For example, people mocking the bow of the ship scene, or recently mythbusters did an episode on how the door would have been able to float both her and jack, things like that. Compare that to a timeless IP like Star Wars where kids continue to love it and are emotionally attached to the characters. You don't see kids dressing up as characters from Titanic for Halloween. I'm basically saying that I foresee Avatar being viewed more like Titanic in 10 years where it's remembered as a good movie but not something people obsess over or that warrants an E ticket attraction let alone an entire land.

 

[flynnibus]

IF Star Tours 2 was promoted as it should have been, who knows what it could have done for DHS in attendance.. No, not a 30% jump like Potter did for IOA, but I am sure there would have been a bigger impact than there was...

You know I keep hearing this theory... but when can you recall seeing TV ads for WDW for a new attraction? heck, have you seen any TV ads for the new fantasyland? or TT2?

I saw tons of marketing for ST2 where I see most of WDW's build up for new attractions... on Radio Disney.. Disney Channel.. and billboards in FL.

Disneyland does a lot of TV spots for new entertainment offerings - but I don't see WDW doing it - only their usual generic 'come to wdw' discount ads.

People keep saying ST wasn't marketed - I say 'compared to what?'

 

[Captain Chaos]

You know I keep hearing this theory... but when can you recall seeing TV ads for WDW for a new attraction? heck, have you seen any TV ads for the new fantasyland? or TT2?

I saw tons of marketing for ST2 where I see most of WDW's build up for new attractions... on Radio Disney.. Disney Channel.. and billboards in FL.

Disneyland does a lot of TV spots for new entertainment offerings - but I don't see WDW doing it - only their usual generic 'come to wdw' discount ads.

People keep saying ST wasn't marketed - I say 'compared to what?'

Actually, I have seen commercials for the new Fantastyland... and no, not on Disney Channel since I don't watch any of the shows there... I have also seen a lot of ads on websites as well as promotional material sent by WDW and the Disney company promoting new Fantasyland... Never once did I ever receive anything like that regarding Star Tours 2...

 

[Longhairbear]

Perceptions tend to be biased by family and background. You felt that Disneyland was the only "real" park because your family thought that. You should not try and say that "everyone" felt that way. They did not! I remember watching the Disneyland opening on TV. My childhood was wrapped around the Mickey Mouse Club and the Mouseketeers running around the park, riding the Tea Cups, etc. I never got the chance to visit DL until I was 57 years old during the 50th Anniversary. I had spent many hours visiting WDW before that and I was also very aware of the history about both parks, Walt Disney and how he connected to both of them. Never, even after my DL visit did I think that DL was superior. Yes, it did have a bigger and more impressive Small World and PoTC, but that does not make it a better place. And everyone I knew felt the same way.


Those two post sum up the degree of confusion that is indeed the West Coast/East Coast perception. Anyone's favorite park or superior park will be the one that they enjoyed the most. The one that gave them more bang for the buck. Both were the brainchild of on Walter E. Disney they cannot be separated by "his parks". They both exist because of him, both were "his park".

Reality tells you that it is easier to manage a confined location with limited room for extras. Reality tells you that to organize, maintain and even always know what is happening over 43 Square Miles is a monumental task requiring massive numbers of personnel, money and planning. The two are only comparable based on the original concept that was always one man...Walt Disney.

On the occasions that I am considered a fanboi, which btw is more of an honor than an insult, for those that are counting, I do not have a problem with it. I see problems, I weigh them against the entire picture not just the myopic viewpoint of some, and then I determine whether the sky is falling or not. Most of the time, it is not. I respect those that are "in the know". I understand that they are concerned about quality. I just don't agree that everything that they see is necessarily just a stepping stone to disaster. I prefer to base my opinions on what can be done as opposed to what I'd like to see done. My entire opinion of any park is the degree of pleasure that I get out of that particular experience. I see problems, mostly minor, but I do not look for them. I don't try and guess what management is thinking because I know what they are thinking. How do I save my butt from disaster and at the same time keep my bosses happy. We all do that no matter what profession we are in. It's human nature. Business budgets are sacred things in any business environment. You have to work with what you have. If you want to be a renegade and go away from that on your own...that's were you will be "on your own". Outside!

When I said 'everyone', I meant everyone that I personally knew at the time, I was a kid.

 

[Funmeister]

Where have I defended WDW? You really don't seem to understand my point at all and it's a little annoying that you continue to poke at a Strawman. I've already explained my position, which you can find in the above posts.

What

Where have I defended WDW? You really don't seem to understand my point at all and it's a little annoying that you continue to poke at a Strawman. I've already explained my position, which you can find in the above posts.

What is your issue? That WDW was or was not going to dumb down the quality of ST2? Or that someone is not willing to find a buried post that claims the accusation? Is your argument about the cutback or, as it seems to me, you have a personal issue with '74?

 

[Funmeister]

You know I keep hearing this theory... but when can you recall seeing TV ads for WDW for a new attraction? heck, have you seen any TV ads for the new fantasyland? or TT2?

I saw tons of marketing for ST2 where I see most of WDW's build up for new attractions... on Radio Disney.. Disney Channel.. and billboards in FL.

Disneyland does a lot of TV spots for new entertainment offerings - but I don't see WDW doing it - only their usual generic 'come to wdw' discount ads.

People keep saying ST wasn't marketed - I say 'compared to what?'

To clarify my ST2 marketing post earlier. I should have added that it wasn't the case that it wasn't marketed...it was about a knee jerk reaction that led to over marketing because of the low numbers.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Not quite sure how this thread drifted into the Star Tours controversy. But it brings up a good point.

From what I understand, ST 2.0 hasn't done a thing to help DHS financially or boost attendance. If that's true, TDO could certainly make the argument that they were right and Burbank was wrong. ST 2.0 has not gotten any return on investment. WDW's profit would have been better off without ST since the revenue is presumably the same as it was before the refurb, but without the millions in expenses for the upgrade.

Of course, we all see the big picture. DHS needed so much more than the tiny ST band-aid. And if TDO had killed the project knowing it would produce no short-term gains, then the park would be all the more stale in 5 years.

But obviously TDO (and Burbank as well) is mostly concerned about quarterly results. In that respect, ST hurt the company. Does TDO have a stronger hand in future TDO-vs-Burbank battles when they can point to ST? And will that give TDO any kind of voice in final approval of Avatar since Al and others seem to believe Burbank's ego is the only driving force behind the project?

Excellent points.

I do however have one but: '...but how would DHS have fared without ST2'?
DHS is the park most directly in the line of fire from UNI. For being the ost similar to the two UNI parks. Wouldn't DHS have suffered a massive blow if it hadn't had ST2 to mitigate the damage of the Potter assault?

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Seriously? You are going to turn this into a ing match based on what someone may or may not have put in print in a blog versus the fact that it happend anyway? This is not my fight but I would say you have as much responsibility going through ALL of the posts that he did'nt say it that '74 has of proving it! Base on the track record of '74 I would not try to bust his coconuts over a small technical blurb.

I challenge you to contact Al yourself and ask him if he did rather than you asking the world to prove things to you. Because I myself cannot prove to you in writing that the Earth is round....you get the point.

Where is the ing match? Or, for that matter, the defense of TDO?

The burden of proof lies with him who states a positive. 'You make the claim, you provide the proof'. If only because of the near impossibility of proving a negative.