"Adios" El Rio del Tiempo!

[Legacy]

Disney wouldn't know synergy if it bit 'em in the posterior. They can trumpet their so-called "synergy" 'til the cows come home, but when their idea of "synergy" is promoting tired (and vapid when they were new) properties like the "Honey I Shrunk" franchise, or when every family on every ABC sitcom had to make an obligatory visit to Disney World, it's painfully obvious how uninspired they are regarding synergy.

And again, this all comes back to the money, anyway. Unless you have stock in the company, why would you care? Why is there this feeling that the company making money--not making guests happy, not offering value for their dollar--but just making the company money is the most important thing in the world? Have they got you that snowed?

Because it won't be. Plain and simple. For years the parks have been cash cows to support Disney's failing ventures. By and large, money from the parks has not been re-invested into the parks.

G7

Just because tired properties are still in the parks doesn't discredit the synergy involved. It discredits the motivation of the management which, as everyone knows, is about the money. However who do we blame for that? Do we blame the management, who in all reality are just doing their job to make more money for their investors, or do we blame the countless new and returning guests who seem completely satisfied to sit through Honey, I Shrunk The Audience for the fiftieth time?

I'm not going to try and discredit your opinion, you do bring up some good points. However you cannot hate the company for doing what it is suppose to do... that being turn a profit. Money HAS been re-invested into the parks too... just not how you would want. But in the grand scheme of things an investment in WDW is a low priority. They're number one... they are going to STAY number one because they ARE number one. But if an original attraction isn't getting the crowds (like El Rio) and tired property is (like Honey), then which one should be changed?

The money for Mission: Space, Test Track, all of Animal Kingdom, the rumored Midway Mania... are all re-investments into WDW. The 50th celebration, the current YoMD are also re-investments. What is so terrible about re-investing to at least make something more appealing. That's what Disney is suppose to do.


(Oh... and I don't own stock... I just go because I enjoy it... why do you go? :wave: )

 

[JimboJones123]

Wouldn't longer lines in a dead attraction be good for crowd control. I know it may hurt peoples feelings if an attraction is changed, but if the overall result is slower lines for TTWC -- GO FOR IT.

 

[pheneix]

Epcot has been labeled with a stigma since it's opening. All Disney is doing is trying to erase that stigma. Is that bad?

But "bad Epcot" with the nasty stigma made more money. Way more money, actually. All three parks during that time had profit margins that management can only dream about now as they give away free food.

ARE number one. But if an original attraction isn't getting the crowds (like El Rio) and tired property is (like Honey), then which one should be changed?

Honey is getting the crowds anymore. It actually runs on set show times now because its popularity is falling. It is safe to say that HISTA will be on its way out with the rest of the Imagination pavillion once Disney finally settles on a concept.

Disney parks were founded on synergy and cross-commercialization.

Yes, you're right. This Disney Parks marketing campaign was founded on EXACTLY those two principles.

They're number one... they are going to STAY number one because they ARE number one.

In all fairness they're really number three now. Both Las Vegas and the Mall of America are bigger draws.

 

[Eyorefan]

\I've seen Darkwing Duck draw a huge line at DAK....

Darkwing Duck!!!! Wow that brings back memories. I loved that show! :sohappy:

 

[GothMickey]

Haven't been around for a while, but now I am back. I don't know what to think about the Three Caballeros being included in the ride at Mexico. With the inclusion of characters all over Epcot, when will a life size AA of Quasimodo be installed on the Eiffel Tower in France, him hanging off it like King King does on the Empire State Building?

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Interestingly, a claim was made that something was successful, but "did not necessarily reach the size of audience ... or appeal to the broad base." Seems like some extremely screwed up logic for a corporate entity. Somehow they want us to believe it was successful when it didn't appeal to the broad base, but something that will likely appeal to the larger base is a bad move. :veryconfu

Let's try to remember a simple fact... Epcot is a theme park built for one purpose. Sorry, that purpose is not some higher philosophical motive that some want to dream about, but rather, to make money. Any attempt by the consumer to instill some higher motive to the park simply means WDI succeeded in pulling some Disney showmanship to affect the transfer of $$$ from our pockets to theirs. The illusion of Epcot serving some higher purpose, as purported by a vocal few, just shows they "sold" their product very well. :lol:

Wannab, you and I will go back and forth because we see things fundamentally differently, and we don't need to perpetuate that anymore. All I will say is that you took my argument and twisted my logic. Just because something did not meet EXPECTATIONS does not mean it wasn't a success. Was it the full success? no. I'll absolutely give you that one. But, it was not a failure. If we are going to go along your logic that success = meeting expectations, than many of your beloved new additions are far from successes. The numbers projected and expected for JII, M:S, SGE, Tiki, and DAK as a whole were not/are not what they wanted going in (just to name a few - and those are from managment). So are these things failures? I won't say that because I don't think it's true. I will say they were not as successful as they could have been, but that is in execution. And that's what happened in EPCOT Center. You like to lump me into this "no change" bin, and it's just not true. I would hate to see ERDT stay the same with no attention as I would to see the 3 Cabs. It is the overkill. The reason this debate keeps raging on is because it keeps happening. And we kept getting the "It's just one pavilion" argument. I am very happy that your family enjoys the changes. They come off directly as a cheap way to get a temporary surge in attendance by slapping marketable characters over a dated attraction instead of providing a brand new, well planned attraction. That's about as "un-magical" to me as you get. That's where we diverge (and likely always will).

 

[vonrehrmann]

Let's try to remember a simple fact... Epcot is a theme park built for one purpose. Sorry, that purpose is not some higher philosophical motive that some want to dream about, but rather, to make money. Any attempt by the consumer to instill some higher motive to the park simply means WDI succeeded in pulling some Disney showmanship to affect the transfer of $$$ from our pockets to theirs. The illusion of Epcot serving some higher purpose, as purported by a vocal few, just shows they "sold" their product very well. :lol:

Wow, see what the product of our jaded, soulless, aimless society is... witness it in its full glory, for this is why the "future" and died.

Walt Disney was the last great futurist. EPCOT in it's original non-theme park form, was a dream/obsession of Walt's... a Utopian society on the bleeding edge of technology with all of its citizens working towards the betterment of the human condition. A city of tomorrow... today.

First though, lets look back at Disneyland. Do you think Walt made Disneyland for the sole purpose of making money? If he did, he would never have built it. Disneyland was first and foremost a realization of walt's own obsessions. It was his Neverland. It was a place where he could have, and share, his idealized america, his vision of the past, his visions of the future, and the flights of fancy that entertained his mind.... and he could drive a train. If he made it to make money he would be like most of Todays Disney upper brass and only go to the parks when forced... not have an apartment there, not buy ice cream for the kids... or even take a few hours working the ice cream cart just so he could see smiles on kids faces. If Disneyland would have been designed to "make money" it would have failed miserably. Did Walt hope it made money, yes... if for nothing else to prove his critics wrong. More importantly though it helped to fund bigger dreams.

The Florida Project was the culmination of those dreams. It was Walt's perfect Utopian (some would say proto-fascist) vision. However... after Walt died, no one knew, no one had the passion to complete those dreams... So, they did the next best thing in their minds... They took the theme park concept and worked it into the EPCOT concept. EPCOT was a theme park that would reflect those Utopian dreams, it would progress the idea of people working together for a better future, rather than resigning themselves to annihilation. EPCOT was intended to teach, and hope that when you left, you took part of that dream with you.

I grew up in central Florida... I grew up at Walt Disney World... but more importantly, much of my dreams were forged at EPCOT. I loved EPCOT, i used to LOVE Horizons, Universe of Energy, World of Motion, The Living Seas, The Land, Imagination... Spaceship Earth... and Yes... Mexico was my favorite thing in world showcase till Maelstrom (being of Norwegian Heritage)... My family ended up going to EPCOT more than the MK when i was groeing up,because i loved it. I used to look forward to my yearly school field trips to EPCOT, even though I was there almost every weekend anyway.. because i got to see different things, i got to share my love with my fellow students...

Well i moved off to Los Angeles... and didn't get to visit EPCOT for a long time....

I returned to Florida this year for one year to handle family issues, and the first thing i did was head to EPCOT... but it was gone. It was replaced by Epcot. Gone were those dreams... with the exception of SSE... Replaced by Ellen, Replaced by Mission: Space (which while still having a futurist element... lacks the greater part of a soul.. especially in comparison to that which it replaced), Replaced by Test Track (which teaches us nothing about the future, and instead is a giant advertisment for todays cars), Replaced by Nemo (and not the Jules Verne one...and god do i miss the movie from the living seas), Replaced by Eric Idle... The Land changes i dont mind too much, though i miss the boat ride having a CM. Even SSE is in a state where it is missing half of itself...

I cried. I turned to my wife and said... what happened.

And i think that article "A Happy Accident" sums up my thoughts pretty well... It happened because of you.

It happened because people have no attention spans anymore. It happened because cynicism replaced idealism. It happened because nihilism replaced futurism. When I was a kid we dreamed of flying cars still... todays kid's vision of the future is less Jetson's/Metropolis and more Terminator/Mad Max. It is less Jules Verne and Ray Bradbury and more... well apocalyptic. They are taught there IS NO FUTURE!!! Weather it be Christian Fundamentalist Evangelicals telling them "Jesus is coming, you don't need a future beyond that its the end times" or Mass Media telling them the world is going to end by Nuclear Holocaust, Environmental Disaster, Meteor Strike, ETC... ALL THEY HEAR IS "THIS IS THE END." Why would you dream for a future when all you hear is it isn't coming. Hell, we put man on the moon... then spent 25 years not going out of orbit... now kids are told we never landed on the moon on network TV specials.

Your cynicism and jaded response is noted ahead of time.

EPCOT died, not because it was a failure...

but because we are.

 

[Lee]

That's it.
I'm not clicking on this thread anymore...it's turned too depressing.

But before I go, can I just say...It's just a theme park. Try not to get too worked up over changes to a theme park.:animwink:

 

[Bravesfn1]

Haven't been around for a while, but now I am back. I don't know what to think about the Three Caballeros being included in the ride at Mexico. With the inclusion of characters all over Epcot, when will a life size AA of Quasimodo be installed on the Eiffel Tower in France, him hanging off it like King King does on the Empire State Building?

Great Line Goth Mickey! :sohappy:

 

[nibblesandbits]

Well, if you say so, then it must be true. And I'm sure that adding the Three Cabs is going to make it every bit the blockbuster that pimping Figment made Journey Into Your Imagination With Figment. And it's all happening because that's what the guests want and Disney knows it. And Disney can do no wrong. Did I forget anything?

G7

The point is...he's not the only one saying you are in the unique minority...there have been lots of people on here who have said they are all for these projected changes (whatever they may be...3 Cab or not). Only a minority on here believe that this is a horrible idea.

This is rather like saying, "I'm an average movie patron, and I didn't like this movie, so it's no good". There are occasions of almost universal consensus. Gigli received such an overwhelming consensus against it, that I didn't bother. Ditto for SuperStar Limo. But thankfully, most movies and most rides are not so incredibly disastrous that nearly no one likes them. You're entitled to your opinions and feelings, but please know that you don't speak for everyone--nor does the tiny microcosm of this board or this thread. Many people love El Rio de Tiempo--including "average guests", if there is such a thing.

And on this note, you're right, it is rather big of me to say that I'm like the "average guest". How silly of me to think that.

However, I can tell you, I've gone with quite a few "average guests" and none of them believe that ERdT is a must do. Actually, they all think it's quite boring.

Look, obviously Disney has realized that the "average" guest does not enjoy this ride (I tried to point that out...but I guess that didn't work)...they have come up with a way to change it and make it so that it is a success. (Or at least more of a success than it is now...which let's face it...when you can walk the entire line and hop on the ride...how is that considered a success?) I'm sorry that they have decided to use characters to help people learn about Mexico. (Which, by the way...there has been no announcement made that this is how they are going to do it...so we don't know what they have in store just quite yet.) Yes, it is sad to see that Epcot is changing from what it once was...but the point is...none of this arguing, bickering, and discussing is going to change it. Disney has made up their mind and no matter whether we think it's a good decision or not, they are going to do what they want because since Disney owns the parks, it is up to them to figure out how to run them. Not us. Plain and simple.

 

[Buried20KLeague]

Holy CRAP this thread got deep!

Epcot has become what it has become for a long list of reasons, many of which have been mentioned here. But the reality is that Walt's not calling the shots anymore. And he hasn't for a long time. And he never will again. Gone are the days of decisions that revolve solely around the story and not the monetary impact of telling said story. A sad turn of events? Maybe. But it is what it is.

Times, they are a'changin', people. And unfortunately, you've got to move forward with them. This idea a few people have talked about in their posts that in the 50's and 60's life was so much more positive and everyone was issued rose-tinted glasses at the door I find to be a little short-sighted. In the early 50's we were just coming out of WWII. That couldn't have been the most positive message for the kiddies of those days. The 60's brought The Cold War, and the Cuban Missle Crisis, among other things. Probably pretty spooky for kids of those days to practice nuclear drills during the school day and to have that bomb shelter installed in the back yard, no??

Things are no worse today than they were back then. It's just a different set of circumstances. Is it possible some people here are looking back on those days as kids and remembering fondly their childhood and how bright their futures seemed? I tend to think so.

Now take today. My wife and I have two little girls, 9 and 8. And they have a gleam in their eye like I've never seen about the future. Is their vision of the future plastic houses and hover-cars?? No. Does that make their vision of what is to come any less visionary?? Again, no. Today's vision of the future is grounded more in fact and science and possible technology than the 60's "what kind of space city will we live in" idealism. Again, that doesn't make either one wrong, it just seems that today's is grounded more in reality. I don't think that makes the world a wose place than 50 years ago. And yes, my kids have asked me about 9/11. And I've talked with them about it. They understand the world can be a dangerous place. But it was dangerous back then, too. I think you'd find that a lot of the scary "end of days" talk is lost upon them... These aren't things they focus on. They don't reason like adults do. A lot of this same "end of days" talk was going on back in the 50's and 60's too, and you know what? Kids didn't focus on it then either. We as parents focus on the OPPORTUNITY our kids have these days that they would have NEVER had 50 years ago. Especially being young girls. The world these days is all about perception, and what you choose to focus on and what you make of it. If your view of the world today is that everything's about to end, then your kids (or if you don't have kids, then those you have influence over) have ZERO chance.

So. Why that long rant?? Because it is in NO WAY my or my children's fault that Epcot is the way it is today. While I sympathize with your longing for "the good old days", it's NOT anymore. Our "good old days" are gone. Now it's my KIDS "good old days", and it's my job to make them the best I can make them... And it's the imagineer's job to tell their story within the confines of fiscal responsibility. Which is probably why being an imagineer is a harder job today than it ever was before.

The job of any Disney park is to turn a profit. If you think that's sad, then I'm sorry. But that's the way things are today. And as a fan, you then have two choices: You can sit in front of your computer and complain and yearn for what used to be, and be dragged into the future kicking and screaming, or you can understand the circumstances with which Disney must operate, and offer suggestions within those guidelines and welcome change. That doesn't mean that they can't teach or tell a story while turning said profit... It just means it's a harder thing to do, and sometimes because of that, I don't think they get it right. I don't believe the imagineers are any less talented than they used to be... I believe they have worlds more "outside influence" to deal with than they ever have before, and sometimes it effects their final product.

ERDT is aged, and pulls in absolutely no crowds right now. That's all there is to it. No one can argue that. It's got a muddy story line that until Merf laid out for us, I honestly was WAYYY down the wrong path on, almost embarassingly so. I welcome whatever change they choose to bring, and will reserve judgement until after the changes are made. At THAT point, I'll judge what I think about them. But I promise you, any judgement I make will be based upon only what they've done and the product they put forth... It will NOT be based upon the original and my comparison to it because regardless of what I might think about ERDT right now, something must be done because it's not doing its job in its current state. A possible character overlay? I don't know. I'll wait to see. I thought Nemo all over the Seas would drive me crazy, but you know what?? My kids ran around that place more interested in the Seas than they had been in YEARS, and on top of it, they actually learned something. Seems the folks in charge got that one right for the most part. How about we give them the benefit of the doubt on this one, too?

 

[dxwwf3]

But before I go, can I just say...It's just a theme park. Try not to get too worked up over changes to a theme park.:animwink:

I hate when people say that :lol:. It bugs me almost as much as the people who say "It's just a game" after a sporting event. If it didn't mean anything to you, you wouldn't care to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, I know what you're saying, but if we can't get worked up over things we care about, then is there even a need to care about them at all?

 

[Lee]

Don't get me wrong, I know what you're saying, but if we can't get worked up over things we care about, then is there even a need to care about them at all?

I guess I just think there is a limit to how hard you should take a change to a theme park. I care about the parks more than most anybody, but I don't get emotionally hurt by changes. Sure, I hated to loose Toad...but it only lasted a short time before I got over it. Same for 20K, etc. I liked the old, closed attractions, but my childhood memories of them are just that...memories. Time moves on...so do I. I make new memories.

Bottom line, Disney is going to do whatever it takes to get the most people into the parks, spending the most money, and coming back more often. If that means shifting the focus of a ride or whole park...so be it. That's not cynical...just realistic. Can't blame them. The most a park fan can hope for is that they do it in the most entertaining and high-quality way.

Dang...I came to this thread again...gotta stop that...

 

[dxwwf3]

I guess I just think there is a limit to how hard you should take a change to a theme park.

Well of course there is, but I don't think anyone has crossed that line in this thread. It's good to be passionate about certain things, IMO.

Bottom line, Disney is going to do whatever it takes to get the most people into the parks, spending the most money, and coming back more often. If that means shifting the focus of a ride or whole park...so be it. That's not cynical...just realistic. Can't blame them. The most a park fan can hope for is that they do it in the most entertaining and high-quality way.

Can't disagree with that at all. As much as I may hate it (or love it) sometimes, they've got to do what they feel is best for business.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Lee, your points are very realistic and valid. I think this is merely a vehicle for a larger debate. The other side to your coin is that these elements made up Disney for many people, even if they are a minority (a minority of a few million people is still a pretty darn sizeable population). Therefore, for those people that represent that on here, this is a precarious position. This is about entertaining people. And, frankly, these new things are not entertaining (again, this is all about me and my perspective). Therefore, it is the choice between blindly accepting what seems is mediocrity or even worse OR abandoning completely. Because this is just an internet fansite and Disney can and should do what it wants, the only thing we have is debate. It's almost a support group of sorts because, with this final nail, I am seriously questioning my return to the resort. This is a little one, but it shows the current trends and ideas. That represents an expansion of the parts I didn't like of Disney earlier on, and that, in turn, represents a great hit to the entertainment value. It is, in the long run, though, up to Disney to determine the balance between alienation and potentially broader/different appeal.

I know I will get the "less in line for me" (which I personally find a bit rude of a response from a true fan to another since both sides obviously have the goal of making/seeing the best Disney possible), but that is a tough thing to say given the importance of it to my childhood. I guess it's like a bad breakup. :lol:

 

[Bravesfn1]

Lee, your points are very realistic and valid. I think this is merely a vehicle for a larger debate. The other side to your coin is that these elements made up Disney for many people, even if they are a minority (a minority of a few million people is still a pretty darn sizeable population). Therefore, for those people that represent that on here, this is a precarious position. This is about entertaining people. And, frankly, these new things are not entertaining (again, this is all about me and my perspective). Therefore, it is the choice between blindly accepting what seems is mediocrity or even worse OR abandoning completely. Because this is just an internet fansite and Disney can and should do what it wants, the only thing we have is debate. It's almost a support group of sorts because, with this final nail, I am seriously questioning my return to the resort. This is a little one, but it shows the current trends and ideas. That represents an expansion of the parts I didn't like of Disney earlier on, and that, in turn, represents a great hit to the entertainment value. It is, in the long run, though, up to Disney to determine the balance between alienation and potentially broader/different appeal.

I know I will get the "less in line for me" (which I personally find a bit rude of a response from a true fan to another since both sides obviously have the goal of making/seeing the best Disney possible), but that is a tough thing to say given the importance of it to my childhood. I guess it's like a bad breakup. :lol:

Interesting and well thought out post. I admire you for standing by your opinions. I agree with you and support what you are saying.

 

[Lee]

...but that is a tough thing to say given the importance of it to my childhood.

I think it has a little to do with age.

I grew up having only MK as a park. That was/is my definition of a Disney park.
Epcot opened. I went...I said "Eh....not really for me". That was pretty much the case for me at Epcot up until, oh say, 1999.
Test Track brought me back to the park. Horizons...Motion...Journey...Old Energy...they just didn't connect with me. Sure they were pleasant...but I felt no need to visit them very often...maybe every other trip.

Now, I hit it every time. Test Track, Space, Soarin.....love 'em...and I really don't miss their ancestors at all. I am one of those "Don't try to educate me at a theme park" people. That's why Epcot left me cold. It bored me.

Maybe if they tried to take the escapism out of MK I would feel the way some of you do about Epcot. Maybe. But nothing will keep me away from the resort.

 

[Tim G]

That's it.
I'm not clicking on this thread anymore...it's turned too depressing.

But before I go, can I just say...It's just a theme park. Try not to get too worked up over changes to a theme park.:animwink:

That´s what I´ve been saying, they´re taking it way too serious...

 

[KumbaRider]

Test Track brought me back to the park. Horizons...Motion...Journey...Old Energy...they just didn't connect with me. Sure they were pleasant...but I felt no need to visit them very often...maybe every other trip.

Now, I hit it every time. Test Track, Space, Soarin.....love 'em...and I really don't miss their ancestors at all.

I agree. Growing up Epcot seemed boring to me. Over those years I was much more interested in Busch Gardens and "roller coaster parks". It wasn't unitl several years ago that I revisted Epcot and was impressed. I love Test Track, Soarin, and Mission: Space. Yes, it's always interesting to learn about past Epcot attractions and have old memories of them, but the changes that have been taking place over that past several years to Epcot have truly brought in a new light to the park. Now, family and friends of mine love visiting the park because of its diversity of offerings and experiences. They did not always love the park. I still love classics like Spaceship Earth and so on, but why not bring in new offerings? Nemo was incredibly well done, and wow, people are visiting the Living Seas again. Epcot is changing, and will always be changing.

 

[iheartdisney91]

ok can someone clear this up for me? how are they changing it and what are they adding ?

cuz i love this ride and my brother and i always ride and we never realized the indian aztec person and he turns into a statue we thought it was cool..