A Spirited Valentine ...

[truecoat]

I agree, which is why I had originally qualified the idea with "right now" ... sure the Avatar sequels could change everything. Maybe. But wow, has Sam Worthington been in anything else since? Yikes

He's the Australian version of Taylor Kitsch.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Honest question, was New Fantasyland considered a miss? For myself, I really don't hang around MK too much and actively avoid Fantasyland (literal human maze) as a whole so I really didn't see the public's reaction when it opened. Personally, it felt like the mess it made across the back of the park during construction wasn't worth the end result. I thought people loved it but again, no first hand experience there. Feel free to smack me with facts!

For me, total miss. 7DMT was over budget and the final product I know was less than originally planned. The ending scene is in the brake zone and you have to crane your neck to even see Snow White dancing. You might miss the witch if you don't look carefully. The windows fog up when it's raining. The ride is way too short.

Mermaid was poorly executed. Bad lighting. Bad execution of the great omnimover ride system where you see other guests during the ride. Lazy, cheap theming. Beautiful show building just like 7DMT, but it's like Disney spent 90% of the budget on facade.

Losing Snow White was not a good trade for 7DMT.

 

[Chef Mickey]

The stock price for TWDC is being held up by one factor the massive stock buyback program which is artificially inflating EPS and pumping cash to wall street.

Disney has NO organic growth in any of its lines of business even with last years massive buyback program stock performance was at -6 percent.

All of Disneys earnings growth has been due to cuts and price increases.

Just think on that for a while and see where it takes you. And as the cable cutting gets worse over in Media Networks land you are going to see cuts at P&R which will boggle the mind

I hate Iger, but DIS has quadrupled the performance of the S&P500 over the last 10 years (roughly when he took the job). The buybacks have some effect, but DIS is financially much stronger than they were 10 years ago and have far more earning power. This isn't "just" a buyback story.

The story has been more margin squeezing and less domestic expenditure on parks, which I view as a mistake in the long term. He's trying to spend now to make up for lost time, but we've clearly gotten a subpar product in the meantime and 2 parks are practically ruined. Besides Pandora, I view most of the domestic spending as wasteful and in the wrong areas or wrong attractions. He clearly wanted to open Shanghai badly and let domestic parks suffer as a result. In an effort to squeeze more, Iger approved billions on essentially an IT project.

Whatever the motivation, it's pushed Disney stock higher because real money is being spent. They were around $2.4b in profit in 2004 and more recently are at $9.2b. That's not all buybacks and financial engineering. IBM does that.

 

[ford91exploder]

The forum will hold everyone accountable for this. I lost a similar bet to @Jimmy Thick and was happy to pay up. If we can make some money for a good cause with our petty arguments, then at least we can feel somewhat productive.

Done,

 

[Cesar R M]

You're posts speak for themselves, as quoted by BrianLo. Insiders have said 2019. There's always a chance it falls into early 2020 but come on ... it's like six months behind Disneyland, it's not opening in 2022-2023. That's ridiculous. Please stop. I think you make valid points at times and when the company is cheap I too call them out but you're starting to become trollish at this point and I know you aren't a troll, so please stop creating your own narrative. I mean do you hear yourself? Some magical delay will prevent opening until 2022-2023? I've told you before but posts like these make you hard to take seriously.

I only imagine Ford's timeline if something goes really wrong.
Like another sharp downturn of economy by a banking crisis or employee crisis.

 

[Cesar R M]

I think it's a bit of the Harry Potter effect. Before Potterland opened you didn't need an emotional attatchment to an IP to make a theme park land or ride good. Now a lot of people just benchmark everything against Potter and if it falls short it's a fail. I do blame Disney for trying to use the Avatar IP the same way Universal used Harry Potter. There's not going to be a built in fan base for Avatar. The land has to carry the IP. I do wonder what would have happened if they opened this exact land but replaced the banshees and blue people with generic dragons and mythical creatures and called it beastly kingdom. I think some of the people who are a bit sour on the land because of disinterest with the IP would have gushed over it then.

I honestly feel attachment to rides like Peter Pan or Festival of the Lion king.

Remember, Disney is hugely based on nostalgia. So they have technically an emotional attachment by default.

 

[Cesar R M]

Watch the movie then compare it to the land.

Also as a bit of a silver lining if these are my views on Avatar imagine how scrutinizing I'll be with Nintendo if they don't absolutely nail it.

Universal just needs to learn from their mistakes and not pull another VOLCANO BAY mistake.

 

[shernernum]

I know Spirit doesn't like to talk about box office figures, but "sequel fatigue" is something BOM has mentioned repeatedly, and since a mostly tentpole release schedule is what Disney's entire Studio strategy revolves around, it's worth mentioning.

Day-to-day comparisons show Cars 3 and Transformers 5 trailing their predecssors in the US (the latter by a very wide margin), neither likely to make $200 million domestically, just like Pirates 5. Pirates 5 will also probably make $200 million less at the foreign box office than the last one and Despicable Me 3 just opened in the US with a total lower than 2. This does not get into how GotG2 made less than Disney hoped, or how Furious 8 made less than 6 & 7 in the US, despite doing massive business eleswhere. At a certain point, people get tired of seeing the same thing over and over again, and then there's a scramble to get something else like King Arthur off the ground, or a revival of Independence Day, and we've seen how that goes.

Disney used to have a much better balance of lower budget, sometimes "adult" fare and major releases, and even some series like The Mighty Ducks didn't cost $200 million a piece to make. They should look into doing that more, because outside of Marvel and Star Wars, nothing is a guarantee. Not even Pixar anymore.

It would have helped if Cars 3, Transformers 5, or Pirates 5 were good movies which were follow ups to good movies.
Sequel fatigue is really only a thing is tired franchises. All three of the movies mentioned were mediocre at best and were follow ups to critically savaged installments of their franchises.
I would be more on board if movies like Avengers 3 and 4 were 80% plus on their Rotten Tomatoes scores, but faltered at the box office.

EDIT: just noticed Brian Lo's similar contribution to the discussion

 

[Cesar R M]

I know Spirit doesn't like to talk about box office figures, but "sequel fatigue" is something BOM has mentioned repeatedly, and since a mostly tentpole release schedule is what Disney's entire Studio strategy revolves around, it's worth mentioning.

Day-to-day comparisons show Cars 3 and Transformers 5 trailing their predecssors in the US (the latter by a very wide margin), neither likely to make $200 million domestically, just like Pirates 5. Pirates 5 will also probably make $200 million less at the foreign box office than the last one and Despicable Me 3 just opened in the US with a total lower than 2. This does not get into how GotG2 made less than Disney hoped, or how Furious 8 made less than 6 & 7 in the US, despite doing massive business eleswhere. At a certain point, people get tired of seeing the same thing over and over again, and then there's a scramble to get something else like King Arthur off the ground, or a revival of Independence Day, and we've seen how that goes.

Disney used to have a much better balance of lower budget, sometimes "adult" fare and major releases, and even some series like The Mighty Ducks didn't cost $200 million a piece to make. They should look into doing that more, because outside of Marvel and Star Wars, nothing is a guarantee. Not even Pixar anymore.

I dont think its just because they are sequels.
In case of Transformers.. it was an even bigger turd story wise to behind with.. At least that was according to the majority of critics.
So this movie has changed to be a "watchable action sunday blockbuster to erase your worries" to a "facepalming explosive spectacle that makes zero sense and is an insult to worldwide intelligence"

Pirates 5 seems to have the same problem according to many. Noone of my family liked it. So I will watch when it comes out on DVD or a NETFLIX like service.

Cars 3 suffered from the horrible history of Cars 2. And this is sad, as Cars 3 is pretty decent.
But this highlights some issue with the buyers.... I mean, When you kill the franchise so bad that noone has any reasonable push/desire to see the sequels.
This happened with TMNT 2, despite being thousand times better than than Bay-esque TMNT 1, it still trailed thanks to the horrible performance of the first.

Thats IMHO.

In fairness, it seems to be a tough year for movies in general, looking at the performance of things like Life, The Great Wall, and Ghost in the Shell, if it counts.

Wonder Woman counts as a sequel, right?

The Great Wall was a chinese focused movie that just happened to have a big face to try to market it to the US too.
But the entire movie was action wise from start to finish as a Chinese style movie.

Ghost in the shell was severely attacked thanks to the whitewashing drama AND the fact that it was not that well known for non scifi or animee fans.

I thought Cars 3 was just OK. Better than 2 and it managed to capture some of the magic of the original, but fell flat at the end. I don't want to spoil anything, and I might be called sexist, but I just didn't like the ending.

Spoiler

The whole film was setting you up to see see McQueen have one last hurrah, then boom! I just didn't feel invested enough in the new character to be excited for her to win. Yes it provided a twist, but I just felt shortchanged. Oh well, it's just a kids movie anyway.

For me it didnt feel that much. After the whole 60% of the movie, it was clear where the thing was going. Specially after...

Spoiler: Spoilerific

The retirement of Doc Hudson and the visit to his older town where he used to compete.

Still, some of the whole world of Cars is weird, why they did not improve the chassis of McQueen? or a turbo/new engine?

but yeah, the entire movie was a setup to make McQueen accept that he still be relevant without running and giving the flag to an assigned successor who has the same fire as him.

 

[Cesar R M]

The ending scene is in the brake zone and you have to crane your neck to even see Snow White dancing.

Last time I got on board (2016 early January) the Cars stopped right before the Cabin and you moved slowly to see the show.
Which was different than the first time I got on the ride (2015). It did what you said. if you're were the front, you would miss all the cabin scene except the witch.

I hate Iger, but DIS has quadrupled the performance of the S&P500 over the last 10 years (roughly when he took the job). The buybacks have some effect, but DIS is financially much stronger than they were 10 years ago and have far more earning power. This isn't "just" a buyback story.

The story has been more margin squeezing and less domestic expenditure on parks, which I view as a mistake in the long term. He's trying to spend now to make up for lost time, but we've clearly gotten a subpar product in the meantime and 2 parks are practically ruined. Besides Pandora, I view most of the domestic spending as wasteful and in the wrong areas or wrong attractions. He clearly wanted to open Shanghai badly and let domestic parks suffer as a result. In an effort to squeeze more, Iger approved billions on essentially an IT project.

Whatever the motivation, it's pushed Disney stock higher because real money is being spent. They were around $2.4b in profit in 2004 and more recently are at $9.2b. That's not all buybacks and financial engineering. IBM does that.

Pretty sure that the majority of the grow has been thanks to purchase of successful groups and companies.

Return to the new golden age in animation? Thats Pixar and the involvement of Lesseter's team.
How about Star Wars and Marvel? They are monstrous behemoths that did bring billions of money not only in movies, but also in merchandise, toys, etc..

 

[BrianLo]

I said nothing of the headliners if you're referring to me. Flight of Passage definitely outshines Gringotts. The land however isn't as effective as Diagon Alley as far as transporting me into that world. It appears far too manmade to convince me I'm on the beautifully lush natural world of Pandora. Even though it's nothing but "screenz" the headliner nails this to a T while the land outside, pretty as it may be, does not.

Not to be the Pandora defense force, but I think you've misunderstood the Schtik of the whole thing. It looks manmade because it is a man made resoration zone. Sort of the touristy welcome centre to the broader untamed wilds. Its why there are actual man made light poles and a certain amount of boxed garden feel.

No problem with the displeasure about the direction, but you get to experience the full Pandora via the rides in a sense by jumping thousands of kilometers away with FoP. There are certain elements that could have been done better, but a man made city is far easier to recreate than a convincing natural environment like Everest. A certain amount of suspension of disbelief is allowed. Personally the night effects are not yet up to snuff.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

Honestly I don't understand how people prefer the old SW ride. I rode it in Tokyo again last month and damn that ride sucks complete donkey! 7DMT is a great little coaster with 2 awesome shows scenes plus great views, setting and theming. Not to mention the queue line is amazing. Contrast that with walking back and forth between metal stansions to break your neck watching 2 minutes of moving cardboard and mannequins. Under the Sea is an awesome attraction. If only the people complaining about it actually experienced it. By the way I'm at MK today and have been on both rides dozens of times.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Last time I got on board (2016 early January) the Cars stopped right before the Cabin and you moved slowly to see the show.
Which was different than the first time I got on the ride (2015). It did what you said. if you're were the front, you would miss all the cabin scene except the witch.


Pretty sure that the majority of the grow has been thanks to purchase of successful groups and companies.

Return to the new golden age in animation? Thats Pixar and the involvement of Lesseter's team.
How about Star Wars and Marvel? They are monstrous behemoths that did bring billions of money not only in movies, but also in merchandise, toys, etc..

I was there 2 weeks ago and we practically zoomed by. I've also done the slow creep by and it's better, but either way is a mess because it shouldn't be in the brake zone anyway. Give it a proper show building and don't make it look like an afterthought. Terrible execution.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

If only the people complaining about it actually experienced it.

I'm pretty sure everybody has by now? I personally saw it in California too, before it opened in Florida.

"Awesome" is not the word I'd use to describe it.

 

[Mike S]

Not to be the Pandora defense force, but I think you've misunderstood the Schtik of the whole thing. It looks manmade because it is a man made resoration zone. Sort of the touristy welcome centre to the broader untamed wilds. Its why there are actual man made light poles and a certain amount of boxed garden feel.

No problem with the displeasure about the direction, but you get to experience the full Pandora via the rides in a sense by jumping thousands of kilometers away with FoP. There are certain elements that could have been done better, but a man made city is far easier to recreate than a convincing natural environment like Everest. A certain amount of suspension of disbelief is allowed. Personally the night effects are not yet up to snuff.

When Disney built it up the way they did they weren't exactly pushing it as a man made restoration zone on Pandora. I guess that's my own fault for thinking it would feel anything like the bioluminescent forest in the movie outside of the short boat ride.

 

[Chef Mickey]

Honestly I don't understand how people prefer the old SW ride. I rode it in Tokyo again last month and damn that ride sucks complete donkey! 7DMT is a great little coaster with 2 awesome shows scenes plus great views, setting and theming. Not to mention the queue line is amazing. Contrast that with walking back and forth between metal stansions to break your neck watching 2 minutes of moving cardboard and mannequins. Under the Sea is an awesome attraction. If only the people complaining about it actually experienced it. By the way I'm at MK today and have been on both rides dozens of times.

OK, you do have to consider the time period when discussing one or the other.

First of all, Snow White didn't need to be removed regardless. I don't care what anyone says about not having "two" Snow White rides. MK needs more rides, not less and it would have been perfectly fine to keep it. Accordingly, it was never one or the other for me. Clearly 7DMT is a "better" attraction, but given its budget and expectation, it fell short.

Secondly, a lot of dark rides are not incredible, Peter Pan, Mr. Toad, Small World, or Snow White. Nostalgia is a real thing and they were nice crowd eaters that told a story in a fun and simple way for kids.

Lastly, Mermaid is "ok" but again with the budget, expectations, and the modern timing, should have been better.

IMO, you have to be careful comparing eras and classic rides to new ones. New rides aren't good just because they are objectively more detailed or technologically advanced than their older counterparts.

 

[The_Jobu]

First of all, Snow White didn't need to be removed regardless.

 

[flynnibus]

Whatever the motivation, it's pushed Disney stock higher because real money is being spent. They were around $2.4b in profit in 2004 and more recently are at $9.2b. That's not all buybacks and financial engineering. IBM does that.

You skipped the elephants in the room... Pixar, marvel, and Lucasfilm.

 

[GoofGoof]

I honestly feel attachment to rides like Peter Pan or Festival of the Lion king.

Remember, Disney is hugely based on nostalgia. So they have technically an emotional attachment by default.

Nostalgia exists for sure. I was talking about the rides and lands built post Harry Potter. Nobody is going to stop liking HM or Pirates now but anytime something new gets built and it's based on an IP it's going to be compared to Potter.

 

[The_Jobu]

Nobody is going to stop liking HM or Pirates now

Have you seen the redhead thread...?